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I'll rename this thread once the film's title is announced.

There have been a lot of rumours lately that Tobey Maguire and Alfred Molina will be appearing in the third MCU Spider-Man film, and now The Hollywood Reporter has confirmed that Molina is indeed reprising his role as Doc Ock: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/spider-man-3-alfred-molina-returning-as-doctor-octopus

It now seems very likely that Maguire will also be returning. Disney is scheduled to reveal some of its plans for upcoming Marvel and Star Wars movies on Thursday, so perhaps we'll get confirmation then.

Collider is now reporting that Andrew Garfield and Kirsten Dunst are both set to return, and that Maguire is in negotiations to join them.

https://collider.com/spider-man-3-cast-doc-ock-alfred-molina-andrew-garfield/

It's interesting to see some of the comments this news is receiving. Here on Batman-Online, the consensus has always been that the Watts/Holland films were overrated and the Raimi/Maguire films were vastly superior. Following this latest news, some MCU fans finally seem to be acknowledging this.

It's so weird that they're doing this, and Flash is bringing in different incarnations of Batman. Quite the coincidence.

This is a Spider-Man fan's dream.

Fingers crossed the Tobey deal gets done. It should. If past reports were true, Tobey was absolutely interested in the project but wanted more screen time. Kirsten is already on board, which would allow them to show where their relationship is now. I grew to like Garfield in the role, especially after TASM2, so I'm glad he's coming back too. When he was dropped for Holland he became a forgotten, rejected man. This appearance helps remedy that.

The inclusion of Emma Stone makes me wonder if she's going to be Garfield's Gwen, or if they're going with Spider-Gwen, which serves as a haunting echo for Garfield. The inclusion of Molina as Doc Ock is fantastic as well. Definitely one of the best on screen comic villains of all time. Did he survive the drowning incident? Or does the Multiverse pluck these characters out at different parts of their timeline? Also don't forget they're giving Garfield Electro to fight - and it's easier to explain his 'death' as something survivable.

Either way, the Maguire and Garfield eras are getting a big showing here, which is reason enough to be excited. When Holland took over, it was very much a case of 'Marvel will show how it's really done, and will be the best interpretation so far'. That didn't come to fruition, from my point of view. Although I understand why they took certain narrative decisions, and there's room for that in the franchise.

My feelings towards the Spider-Man franchise has warmed in recent times, especially with the PS4 game - even though I'm annoyed they changed Peter's face model. With the inclusion of Maguire (hopefully) and Garfield, this is giving a lot of fans what they want. Along with their iconic villains and love interests.

If people loved those films I don't see why they wouldn't be excited about this.

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Tue,  8 Dec  2020, 21:12
It's so weird that they're doing this, and Flash is bringing in different incarnations of Batman. Quite the coincidence.

This is not a coincidence.

The Russo brothers once confirmed that Civil War got made because BvS was coming out. And now The Flash is bringing back multiple Batmen, the latest MCU Spider-Man sequel is bringing back multiple Spider-Men. Anyone who doesn't see a dubious pattern here must be lying to themselves. Plus, the Doctor Strange sequel was the one hyped up to explore the multiverse, but it's appeal has been somewhat undermined now Spider-Man is going to do it first.

I have very mixed feelings about this. As much as I enjoy the prospect of seeing these characters coming back, I really don't like the MCU's take on Spider-Man and would've preferred to get a fourth Raimi film instead. Same thing goes with Garfield, I'd rather see a third Spider-Man film with him starring in it.

None of that will likely ever happen though, so the only thing I hope is the MCU doesn't do anything stupid to Maquire and co. We've seen what they did to Thor, Hulk, Drax, Iron Man and so on.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  8 Dec  2020, 21:43Fingers crossed the Tobey deal gets done. It should. If past reports were true, Tobey was absolutely interested in the project but wanted more screen time. Kirsten is already on board, which would allow them to show where their relationship is now. I grew to like Garfield in the role, especially after TASM2, so I'm glad he's coming back too. When he was dropped for Holland he became a forgotten, rejected man. This appearance helps remedy that.

I see this movie as being as much the concluding film of Garfield's trilogy as of Holland's. Garfield deserves a decent send-off and hopefully this will end his Peter's story on a happier note than TASM2.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  8 Dec  2020, 21:43The inclusion of Emma Stone makes me wonder if she's going to be Garfield's Gwen, or if they're going with Spider-Gwen, which serves as a haunting echo for Garfield.

I think I'd prefer it to be Spider-Gwen from another reality, then have her and Garfield's Spider-Man get together at the end. They could explain that in Spider-Gwen's universe Peter died under similar circumstances to how Gwen was killed in TASM2. That would give them both the happy ending they deserve.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  8 Dec  2020, 21:43The inclusion of Molina as Doc Ock is fantastic as well. Definitely one of the best on screen comic villains of all time. Did he survive the drowning incident? Or does the Multiverse pluck these characters out at different parts of their timeline?

Spider-Man 2 (2004) is such a perfect film, a part of me is worried that any sort of continuation will damage it. It might be better to have Molina play a Doc Ock from another universe. Possibly one where he succeeded in killing Spider-Man and destroyed New York with his experiment. Maguire's Spider-Man could recognise him and assume it's the Octavius he knew, only to then realise that this Otto is far more evil and beyond redemption. That way we'd get to see a rematch between Maguire's Spidey and Molina's Doc Ock without undoing the latter's death at the end of Spider-Man 2.

Alternatively, the original Doc Ock might simply have survived the events of SM2. Doc Ock 'drowned' at the end of 'And Men Shall Call Him... Octopus!' (Peter Parker, The Spectacular Spider-Man Annual Vol 1 #1, December 1979) when he was dragged to the bottom of the East River after his arms got trapped in the door of a sinking submarine. A few months later he showed up alive and well in 'Arms of the Octopus' (Daredevil Vol 1 #165, July 1980), so I don't see why the cinematic Doc Ock shouldn't prove equally resilient.

Until now I assumed the Jameson J. K. Simmons is playing in the MCU was a different version from the one he portrayed in the Raimi trilogy, but now I'm not so sure.


Also, remember the reference to Doctor Strange in Spider-Man 2?


Were they referring to the Cumberbatch Strange all along? After all, Sam Raimi is directing his next movie.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  8 Dec  2020, 21:43
This is a Spider-Man fan's dream.

Fingers crossed the Tobey deal gets done. It should. If past reports were true, Tobey was absolutely interested in the project but wanted more screen time. Kirsten is already on board, which would allow them to show where their relationship is now. I grew to like Garfield in the role, especially after TASM2, so I'm glad he's coming back too. When he was dropped for Holland he became a forgotten, rejected man. This appearance helps remedy that.

The inclusion of Emma Stone makes me wonder if she's going to be Garfield's Gwen, or if they're going with Spider-Gwen, which serves as a haunting echo for Garfield. The inclusion of Molina as Doc Ock is fantastic as well. Definitely one of the best on screen comic villains of all time. Did he survive the drowning incident? Or does the Multiverse pluck these characters out at different parts of their timeline? Also don't forget they're giving Garfield Electro to fight - and it's easier to explain his 'death' as something survivable.

Either way, the Maguire and Garfield eras are getting a big showing here, which is reason enough to be excited. When Holland took over, it was very much a case of 'Marvel will show how it's really done, and will be the best interpretation so far'. That didn't come to fruition, from my point of view. Although I understand why they took certain narrative decisions, and there's room for that in the franchise.

My feelings towards the Spider-Man franchise has warmed in recent times, especially with the PS4 game - even though I'm annoyed they changed Peter's face model. With the inclusion of Maguire (hopefully) and Garfield, this is giving a lot of fans what they want. Along with their iconic villains and love interests.

If people loved those films I don't see why they wouldn't be excited about this.

I hang my hat on many fandoms. But while I enjoy certain Spider-Man comics, movies, etc, that character has never been a major player for me.

This whole thing seems a little try-hard to me. There's the keeping up with the Joneses bit of trying to top Flashpoint and there's also the angle of trying to drum up as much enthusiasm as possible for the MCU, which people seem to be gradually tiring of.

Superhero teamups used to be rarer than gold in live action. Idk about anybody else but I'm starting to look back on that era with something akin to fondness and nostalgia.

My love of Raimi's Spider-Man is what caused my up and down relationship with the franchise. That trilogy was my ideal representation of the character. It was perfect in my mind, from the tone, the music and casting. I was anticipating 4, then the studio cut the cord and rebooted right back to the beginning. I was gutted. That automatically put me at odds with Garfield. Then Holland appeared.

We all know why this crossover is happening but I couldn't care less. If this is what it takes for Tobey to return in any capacity, let's do it. Could we get more media from Tobey and also Andrew afterwards? Hopefully. Let's take this first step. We can't change the past with Tobey, but at least this is something. It serves to make the films connected and not seperate entities, which gives things a whole new perspective.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue,  8 Dec  2020, 22:12

Quote from: BatmanFurst on Tue,  8 Dec  2020, 21:12
It's so weird that they're doing this, and Flash is bringing in different incarnations of Batman. Quite the coincidence.

This is not a coincidence.

The Russo brothers once confirmed that Civil War got made because BvS was coming out. And now The Flash is bringing back multiple Batmen, the latest MCU Spider-Man sequel is bringing back multiple Spider-Men. Anyone who doesn't see a dubious pattern here must be lying to themselves. Plus, the Doctor Strange sequel was the one hyped up to explore the multiverse, but it's appeal has been somewhat undermined now Spider-Man is going to do it first.

I have very mixed feelings about this. As much as I enjoy the prospect of seeing these characters coming back, I really don't like the MCU's take on Spider-Man and would've preferred to get a fourth Raimi film instead. Same thing goes with Garfield, I'd rather see a third Spider-Man film with him starring in it.

None of that will likely ever happen though, so the only thing I hope is the MCU doesn't do anything stupid to Maquire and co. We've seen what they did to Thor, Hulk, Drax, Iron Man and so on.

I'm fine with Spidey 3 being the last chapter of the Raimi series. However, I'd still like to see a Spider-Man 4 with an older Peter.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  9 Dec  2020, 01:06
My love of Raimi's Spider-Man is what caused my up and down relationship with the franchise. That trilogy was my ideal representation of the character. It was perfect in my mind, from the tone, the music and casting. I was anticipating 4, then the studio cut the cord and rebooted right back to the beginning. I was gutted. That automatically put me at odds with Garfield. Then Holland appeared.

We all know why this crossover is happening but I couldn't care less. If this is what it takes for Tobey to return in any capacity, let's do it. Could we get more media from Tobey and also Andrew afterwards? Hopefully. Let's take this first step. We can't change the past with Tobey, but at least this is something. It serves to make the films connected and not seperate entities, which gives things a whole new perspective.

SN and I batted our views of the editor's cut of Raimi's Spider-Man 3 back and forth in some other thread. And one thing I got from that cut of the movie is the possibility that Peter and MJ broke up as a result of the events of the film. There's a lot of water under the bridge. Possibly too much.

What I hope for from anything that brings Maguire back to the role is some kind of development on that front. I don't need resolution. Because I never rly needed the Raimi series to end. But touching upon the leftovers from Spider-Man 3 would be a highlight for me.

Word is that both Molina and Dunst are back. One wonders what point there is in letting the genie out of the bottle if some sort of agreement with Maguire isn't almost finalized. I won't be shocked if that news comes out soon.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  9 Dec  2020, 03:09
What I hope for from anything that brings Maguire back to the role is some kind of development on that front. I don't need resolution. Because I never rly needed the Raimi series to end. But touching upon the leftovers from Spider-Man 3 would be a highlight for me.

Word is that both Molina and Dunst are back. One wonders what point there is in letting the genie out of the bottle if some sort of agreement with Maguire isn't almost finalized. I won't be shocked if that news comes out soon.

I really want to see Spider-MAN, and that goes for Garfield. Men who have had long careers and aren't school age youngsters.

What if Tobey and Dunst have reconciled, and Garfield is still down in the dumps? But an alternate universe Gwen, who looks exactly like his, provides his happy ending? Therefore giving both incarnations a happy resolution. Peter B Parker was effectively Tobey's Spider-Man in the Spider-Verse movie, so switching places for a point of difference may be an okay idea.

If Tobey is confirmed soon...boy. It's really going to be time to feast.

(https://i.imgur.com/cAUdN1c.gif?noredirect)

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  9 Dec  2020, 03:34

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  9 Dec  2020, 03:09
What I hope for from anything that brings Maguire back to the role is some kind of development on that front. I don't need resolution. Because I never rly needed the Raimi series to end. But touching upon the leftovers from Spider-Man 3 would be a highlight for me.

Word is that both Molina and Dunst are back. One wonders what point there is in letting the genie out of the bottle if some sort of agreement with Maguire isn't almost finalized. I won't be shocked if that news comes out soon.

I really want to see Spider-MAN, and that goes for Garfield. Men who have had long careers and aren't school age youngsters.

What if Tobey and Dunst have reconciled, and Garfield is still down in the dumps? But an alternate universe Gwen, who looks exactly like his, provides his happy ending? Therefore giving both incarnations a happy resolution. Peter B Parker was effectively Tobey's Spider-Man in the Spider-Verse movie, so switching places for a point of difference may be an okay idea.

If Tobey is confirmed soon...boy. It's really going to be time to feast.

(https://i.imgur.com/cAUdN1c.gif?noredirect)

How about Emma Stone playing Spider-Gwen from an alternate universe for Garfield's Spider-Man to glom onto?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  9 Dec  2020, 00:04
This whole thing seems a little try-hard to me. There's the keeping up with the Joneses bit of trying to top Flashpoint and there's also the angle of trying to drum up as much enthusiasm as possible for the MCU, which people seem to be gradually tiring of.

Yes, make no mistake, Marvel/Disney is blatantly trying to outdo The Flash. While it's true that they were the first ones to explore the concept of a multiverse when they announced the Doctor Strange sequel, I highly doubt the next Holland sequel was going to beat that movie and The Flash to the punch if Ezra Miller's film was taking a different direction.

The more I think about this, the less excited I am, to be honest. I find the MCU's latest copycat move to be rather cynical and quite annoying, and the last thing I want to do is get excited about previous versions of the characters coming back...only to be disappointed, Disney Star Wars-style. Of course, one can worry if The Flash follows the same disastrous plot point. But right now, I don't feel that level of apprehension is comparable, knowing Disney's track record.

https://www.murphysmultiverse.com/charlie-cox-daredevil-spiderman-3-marvel-studios/

If this is true...

While it's yet to be officially confirmed, numerous outlets, including Empire Magazine, are now running with the story about Daredevil returning in SM3: https://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/charlie-cox-daredevil-spider-man/

I'm also hearing rumours that Cox will receive roughly equal screen time to Maguire and Garfield. Marvel is expected to reveal more details concerning their upcoming films at the Disney Investor Day event on Thursday, so we might get confirmation of some of these rumours in the next 24 hours.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed,  9 Dec  2020, 21:32
While it's yet to be officially confirmed, numerous outlets, including Empire Magazine, are now running with the story about Daredevil returning in SM3: https://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/charlie-cox-daredevil-spider-man/

I'm also hearing rumours that Cox will receive roughly equal screen time to Maguire and Garfield. Marvel is expected to reveal more details concerning their upcoming films at the Disney Investor Day event on Thursday, so we might get confirmation of some of these rumours in the next 24 hours.

colors- "I could give a crap about Flashpoint."
Also colors- "Holy crap, Keaton is coming back, I CAN'T WAIT FOR FLASHPOINT!"

colors- "Srsly, who gives a care about MCU Spider-Man 3?"
Also colors- "Holy crap, Cox is coming back, I CAN'T WAIT FOR MCU SPIDER-MAN 3!"

Like the man says, my hypocrisy knows no limits. This is my killer-app for anything Marvel. You bring back Charlie Cox as Daredevil and I'll gleefully watch Captain Marvel 2, for God's sake. Let's get this done, y'all!

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  9 Dec  2020, 23:26
colors- "Srsly, who gives a care about MCU Spider-Man 3?"
Also colors- "Holy crap, Cox is coming back, I CAN'T WAIT FOR MCU SPIDER-MAN 3!"

Like the man says, my hypocrisy knows no limits. This is my killer-app for anything Marvel. You bring back Charlie Cox as Daredevil and I'll gleefully watch Captain Marvel 2, for God's sake. Let's get this done, y'all!

I'm not feeling it. I say f*** this sh*t and just make Daredevil Season 4 on Hulu or whatever, and pick up from where the Netflix show left off. Not keen on Cox mingling with Holland. (https://www.batman-online.com/forum/Themes/default/images/post/thumbdown.gif)

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  9 Dec  2020, 23:26
colors- "I could give a crap about Flashpoint."
Also colors- "Holy crap, Keaton is coming back, I CAN'T WAIT FOR FLASHPOINT!"

colors- "Srsly, who gives a care about MCU Spider-Man 3?"
Also colors- "Holy crap, Cox is coming back, I CAN'T WAIT FOR MCU SPIDER-MAN 3!"

Like the man says, my hypocrisy knows no limits. This is my killer-app for anything Marvel. You bring back Charlie Cox as Daredevil and I'll gleefully watch Captain Marvel 2, for God's sake. Let's get this done, y'all!

Now, oh blender of colors, you truly see things regarding this project my way. Your hook is Charlie Cox as Daredevil. Mine is Tobey Maguire as Spider-Man. We'd do anything to get another round for them. Marvel are obviously competing against Flashpoint, but who cares? They're allowed to. If we have genuine interest in both sets of characters it's the best of both worlds. Let's get both done, y'all!

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  9 Dec  2020, 23:26
colors- "I could give a crap about Flashpoint."
Also colors- "Holy crap, Keaton is coming back, I CAN'T WAIT FOR FLASHPOINT!"

colors- "Srsly, who gives a care about MCU Spider-Man 3?"
Also colors- "Holy crap, Cox is coming back, I CAN'T WAIT FOR MCU SPIDER-MAN 3!"

Like the man says, my hypocrisy knows no limits. This is my killer-app for anything Marvel. You bring back Charlie Cox as Daredevil and I'll gleefully watch Captain Marvel 2, for God's sake. Let's get this done, y'all!

I'm right there with you. A few weeks ago, I couldn't have cared less about this film. I didn't think anything could get me as hyped as the thought of Keaton returning as Batman. Then they reveal Maguire's coming back as Spider-Man, and that's almost as exciting. Now we face the possibility of Cox returning as Daredevil, and I'm experiencing a whole new level of fanboy hype. Just think – Maguire's Spider-Man, Molina's Doc Ock...


...and Cox's Daredevil...


...IN THE SAME MOVIE!!!

Inevitably there'll be people who only know Daredevil from the Miller run and the Netflix show, and they'll likely be aghast at anything that deviates tonally from those sources. But the character's history is more diverse than that. I personally do think that the Miller run is definitive, and that the Netflix show adapted that era to perfection. But Miller's run has been covered in live action, and it was done superbly. There's no point simply repeating it. Ideally, I would like to see a new Daredevil TV show that follows on from the Netflix series. As we've discussed in another thread, the Bendis and Brubaker runs would offer the perfect source material to follow the earlier Miller-centric seasons.

That said, I'd also be happy to see a lighter version of the character appear in the movies. Cox's Daredevil skipped the Silver Age and went straight to the Bronze Age, but now he might have a chance to take his version back to the original sixties comics and explore a different side of him. In the comics, Daredevil's friendship with Spider-Man is as prominent as his rivalry with the Punisher. The two of them have regularly shared villains (lest anyone forget, Kingpin was originally a Spider-Man villain when he debuted in 1967 and he didn't face Daredevil until 1981), but until now fans assumed that would never happen in live action owing to legal complications. Wouldn't it be great if we were wrong?

It's no secret that the Silver Age Daredevil's gallery of rogues was somewhat underwhelming. There were a few classic villains in the early days, like the Owl, Gladiator, Mister Fear and Purple Man, but also a lot of lesser baddies like Stilt-Man, Matador and Leap-Frog. For that reason, the early Daredevil comics leant heavily into Spider-Man's gallery of rogues. In fact the very first supervillain that Daredevil ever faced in the comics was Electro, way back in 'The Evil Menace of Electro!' (Daredevil Vol 1 #2, June 1964).


And now it looks as though Cox's Daredevil could be appearing in a movie with Electro.


I honestly never thought that would happen. We might even get to see a live action version of this.


The Spider-Man/Daredevil connection is a whole aspect of both characters' mythologies that has never been explored before in live action. This movie offers a unique opportunity to tackle that material. And as long as it's Cox playing Daredevil, I'm all for it.

Incidentally, Matt Murdock did already make an incredibly brief cameo in Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse (2018).


We still don't know if the rumours about Cox returning are true. But if they are it means not only are we getting more live action Daredevil, but we're getting more of Cox's Daredevil – the definitive live action version. It will mean that he is officially, canonically and indisputably the Daredevil of the MCU. And that'll almost certainly mean more movie and TV appearances further down the line. It also makes it likely we'll see D'Onofrio return as Kingpin. The Black Widow movie is introducing Florence Pugh as Yelena Belova, and it's been reported that she will be appearing as the new Black Widow in future MCU films and TV shows. Perhaps Marvel has plans for her and Cox's Daredevil?


From Sony's perspective, it makes sense to capitalise on their MCU access while they've still got it. They might renegotiate with Marvel for more joint pictures in the future, but in case they don't this could be the last Spider-Man movie tied to the MCU. They might as well use Daredevil and Doctor Strange while they still can. I've also heard rumours that Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin and Tom Hardy's Venom might put in appearances. I'm hoping the two studios can negotiate an extension of their deal. That way Maguire's Spider-Man could return in Raimi's new Doctor Strange film, as has been rumoured, and Holland's Spider-Man could battle D'Onofrio's Kingpin in a later movie.

I know a lot of people, myself included, have been feeling burnt out on superhero movies after the Infinity War films. For the past decade critics of the genre have been saying that CBMs have run their course and are on the way out, but the box office has continued to prove these naysayers wrong. My own prediction, dating back to around 2014, was that the genre would peak in popularity with the conclusion of the Infinity Gauntlet storyline, following which it would then go into decline. I still believe this. I don't think superhero films are suddenly going to start flopping overnight, but I do think the mainstream popularity they've enjoyed over the past two decades will begin to diminish. A few films will likely still cross the $1 billion mark, but it'll become an increasingly rare occurrence. I'm sceptical that any more superhero films will cross the $2 billion mark. Again, I'm not saying this is going to happen overnight; it'll be a steady decline that takes a while. But eventually I predict it'll reach a point similar to the eighties and nineties, where studios go back to just focusing on tent-pole characters like Batman and Superman and we end up with far fewer CBMs each year.

This live action multiverse trend, however, is something I never anticipated. It's the sort of thing I wished for but never thought we'd really get. It could breathe new life into the genre over the next two or three years. It won't entirely halt the decline of CBMs, but it might slow it down a bit. The multiverse concept offers a chance to unite fans of different eras, celebrate these characters' histories, and tell new stories that haven't been told before in live action. It's an ace-up-the-sleeve that paves the way for both DC and Marvel to play their ultimate trump card once the popularity of the superhero genre is on its last legs.

And what is that ultimate trump card?


Now that both studios are exploring the concept of the multiverse, this is finally a possibility. Once the genre's popularity has bottomed out, and the studios are getting desperate, I predict they'll team up to play this final hand.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 10 Dec  2020, 14:58
I know a lot of people, myself included, have been feeling burnt out on superhero movies after the Infinity War films. For the past decade critics of the genre have been saying that CBMs have run their course and are on the way out, but the box office has continued to prove these naysayers wrong. My own prediction, dating back to around 2014, was that the genre would peak in popularity with the conclusion of the Infinity Gauntlet storyline, following which it would then go into decline. I still believe this. I don't think superhero films are suddenly going to start flopping overnight, but I do think the mainstream popularity they've enjoyed over the past two decades will begin to diminish. A few films will likely still cross the $1 billion mark, but it'll become an increasingly rare occurrence. I'm sceptical that any more superhero films will cross the $2 billion mark. Again, I'm not saying this is going to happen overnight; it'll be a steady decline that takes a while. But eventually I predict it'll reach a point similar to the eighties and nineties, where studios go back to just focusing on tent-pole characters like Batman and Superman and we end up with far fewer CBMs each year.

I'm to the point now where I'm... not fed up with comic book films but I do go a bit out of my way to avoid them. You give me a choice between an old episode of Dexter and [insert comic book movie here], I'll probably watch Dexter. Even if it's season 08 Dexter!

A few weeks ago, I finally set aside some time to watch Scorsese's The Irishman. I'd been putting it off for a long time. And you know what? It was a joy to watch a movie where nobody wears a cape and tries to find/recover/steal/return/save/destroy The Really Important Glowy Object. A few days ago, I spun up The Highwaymen on Netflix, same deal. I rly enjoyed myself with that one. Mank was a bit of a let down on the first viewing but you can't have everything.

Point is that I'm more interested in crime movies or bio movies or period pieces or whatever else. Maybe it's to do with the comic book industry's willful implosion over the last few years but I just don't get the same mojo from comic books and related movies that I used to. The exceptions (ZSJL, Flashpoint, JOKER, MCU Spider-Man 3) prove the rule. I doubt I would've even bothered watching Endgame if my wife hadn't wanted to see it during our mini-moon.

I'm in a very similar place to colors in liking crime, bio type movies especially right now. I really like the intense, personal darkness of productions like JOKER, and judging by what we've seen, THE BATMAN. I'm excited about the power of performance, much like how Michelle Pfeiffer went nuts in BR. Acting is what makes film, as Joaquin Phoenix showed.

Strip away all the CGI and what do we have? Zack Snyder is a rare beast in that he uses challenging mental concepts in tandem with a visual extravaganza. I mean, look at the reaction to MoS/BvS. He does big movies like that right, and they do feel like a special event and not just another movie. I put The Matrix, its sequels and hopefully The Matrix 4 in that same category.   

I'm a Keaton and Maguire fan, so I'm naturally enthusiastic about them coming back. But anything outside that? It takes more to convince me, particularly with characters outside my circle. I'm primarily DC (and even then mostly just the trinity) and pretty much only Spider-Man with Marvel. I haven't seen any of the Avengers movies since the second one. My mind just isn't there.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 10 Dec  2020, 15:21
I'm to the point now where I'm... not fed up with comic book films but I do go a bit out of my way to avoid them. You give me a choice between an old episode of Dexter and [insert comic book movie here], I'll probably watch Dexter. Even if it's season 08 Dexter!

Sensational show. Can't wait for the new set of episodes to be aired next year. I can hear the Blood Theme playing in my mind right now.

Having Maguire and Dunst back is great. Having Alfred Molina reprise Doc Ock is just icing on the cake.

Not sure how I feel about Cox's return as Daredevil is this if that's the case. The netflix show felt 'dark and gritty'. With a decidedly adult take on the character. How that can be reconciled with that take on Daredevil suddenly being inserted into the MCU 'formula' approach to storytelling, is going to be interesting to say the very least.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  1 Jan  2021, 21:26

Having Maguire and Dunst back is great. Having Alfred Molina reprise Doc Ock is just icing on the cake.

Not sure how I feel about Cox's return as Daredevil is this if that's the case. The netflix show felt 'dark and gritty'. With a decidedly adult take on the character. How that can be reconciled with that take on Daredevil suddenly being inserted into the MCU 'formula' approach to storytelling, is going to be interesting to say the very least.

The MCU started on a light but serious note. It's become more and more comedic as time goes on.

Maybe inserting Cox's Daredevil will mature the MCU a bit? What I'm hoping is this is Netflix's Daredevil in the MCU and Cox isn't fan-service and a clever attempt at avoiding a wholesale reboot of the character.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 00:32

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  1 Jan  2021, 21:26

Having Maguire and Dunst back is great. Having Alfred Molina reprise Doc Ock is just icing on the cake.

Not sure how I feel about Cox's return as Daredevil is this if that's the case. The netflix show felt 'dark and gritty'. With a decidedly adult take on the character. How that can be reconciled with that take on Daredevil suddenly being inserted into the MCU 'formula' approach to storytelling, is going to be interesting to say the very least.

The MCU started on a light but serious note. It's become more and more comedic as time goes on.

Maybe inserting Cox's Daredevil will mature the MCU a bit? What I'm hoping is this is Netflix's Daredevil in the MCU and Cox isn't fan-service and a clever attempt at avoiding a wholesale reboot of the character.

I heard a rumour that if Cox were to make his return as Daredevil in this film, he would be playing another version of Daredevil. Not the one that Netflix had established.

If that were true then I'll definitely say "no thanks".

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  1 Jan  2021, 21:26
Not sure how I feel about Cox's return as Daredevil is this if that's the case. The netflix show felt 'dark and gritty'. With a decidedly adult take on the character. How that can be reconciled with that take on Daredevil suddenly being inserted into the MCU 'formula' approach to storytelling, is going to be interesting to say the very least.

There's talk he could be Peter's lawyer.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 00:32
The MCU started on a light but serious note. It's become more and more comedic as time goes on.

Maybe inserting Cox's Daredevil will mature the MCU a bit? What I'm hoping is this is Netflix's Daredevil in the MCU and Cox isn't fan-service and a clever attempt at avoiding a wholesale reboot of the character.

If history has taught us anything, especially with Disney, is that the character will be made to conform to the MCU, rather than attempting to actually serve the character. Case in point; MCU Spider-Man.

I would love for the MCU to mature, if even just slightly, but I just don't have much faith in Cox's Daredevil entering the MCU and not getting Feige'd.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 00:54
I heard a rumour that if Cox were to make his return as Daredevil in this film, he would be playing another version of Daredevil. Not the one that Netflix had established.

If that were true then I'll definitely say "no thanks".

I heard the same thing with Alfred Molina returning as Doc Ock. That it wouldn't be Doc Ock from the Raimiverse, but Molina portraying a MCU version of Ock like how JK Simmons was as J Jonah Jameson in "Far From Home".

Kinda takes some wind out of the sails if there's any truth to this.

I'm glad that's NOT the case with Keaton returning as Batman in Flashpoint. Just sayin'.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 02:08

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 00:54
I heard a rumour that if Cox were to make his return as Daredevil in this film, he would be playing another version of Daredevil. Not the one that Netflix had established.

If that were true then I'll definitely say "no thanks".

I heard the same thing with Alfred Molina returning as Doc Ock. That it wouldn't be Doc Ock from the Raimiverse, but Molina portraying a MCU version of Ock like how JK Simmons was as J Jonah Jameson in "Far From Home".

Kinda takes some wind out of the sails if there's any truth to this.

That would suck if Molina or any of the other Raimi actors don't reprise their original characters. But it's not so surprising. I think I remembered hearing Jamie Foxx would play another version of Electro, instead of the one he portrayed in TASM2.

I've never seen Far From Home, but I have seen the post-credits scene. Simmons definitely played a different version of JJ Jameson, which is a parody of Alex Jones as opposed to the traditional newspaper editor. Who knows what other surprises the MCU have in store for the other Spider-Man actors.

Quote from: The Joker on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 02:08
I'm glad that's NOT the case with Keaton returning as Batman in Flashpoint. Just sayin'.

True. We won't know how The Flash will turn out, but right now, the idea of iconic interpretations of characters making their return after a long absence is far more exciting than seeing actors playing a variation of their role.

For me, it's not worth letting the genie out of the bottle if those actors don't portray the versions of the characters they established. I could make peace with (hypothetically) Emma Stone playing a Spider-Gwen from the multiverse or something. But everyone else should play the existing characters. Otherwise, it's just useless to me.

Useless.

Considering how box office numbers are going these days, I think it's fair to say that MCU Spider-Man needs me a hell of a lot more than I need MCU Spider-Man.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 03:03
For me, it's not worth letting the genie out of the bottle if those actors don't portray the versions of the characters they established. I could make peace with (hypothetically) Emma Stone playing a Spider-Gwen from the multiverse or something. But everyone else should play the existing characters. Otherwise, it's just useless to me.

Absolutely. Getting Tobey, Andrew and all the others back only to have them not be the incarnations we know and love would be an insane own goal, tainting the moment. Only a fool complicates the simple.

How hard is it to write a Spider-Man multiverse story? It's meant to be about giving the fans what they want. Michael Keaton returning as Tim Burton's Batman plays so much better than someone who looks like him, but doesn't have that same history built into the script. It's not even close.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 00:32

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  1 Jan  2021, 21:26

Having Maguire and Dunst back is great. Having Alfred Molina reprise Doc Ock is just icing on the cake.

Not sure how I feel about Cox's return as Daredevil is this if that's the case. The netflix show felt 'dark and gritty'. With a decidedly adult take on the character. How that can be reconciled with that take on Daredevil suddenly being inserted into the MCU 'formula' approach to storytelling, is going to be interesting to say the very least.

The MCU started on a light but serious note. It's become more and more comedic as time goes on.

Maybe inserting Cox's Daredevil will mature the MCU a bit? What I'm hoping is this is Netflix's Daredevil in the MCU and Cox isn't fan-service and a clever attempt at avoiding a wholesale reboot of the character.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 03:25

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Jan  2021, 03:03
For me, it's not worth letting the genie out of the bottle if those actors don't portray the versions of the characters they established. I could make peace with (hypothetically) Emma Stone playing a Spider-Gwen from the multiverse or something. But everyone else should play the existing characters. Otherwise, it's just useless to me.

Absolutely. Getting Tobey, Andrew and all the others back only to have them not be the incarnations we know and love would be an insane own goal, tainting the moment. Only a fool complicates the simple.

How hard is it to write a Spider-Man multiverse story? It's meant to be about giving the fans what they want. Michael Keaton returning as Tim Burton's Batman plays so much better than someone who looks like him, but doesn't have that same history built into the script. It's not even close.

Maguire and Garfield have to play the same versions of Peter they played in the past, or else their inclusion is pointless. But with the villains, I have no problem with them playing new versions of their characters. In the case of Doc Ock, I might actually prefer that approach. That way we can see Molina return while at the same time preserving Otto's poignant demise at the end of Spider-Man 2. I can imagine Maguire's Spider-Man encountering a new Doc Ock and mistakenly assuming it's the one he knew, only to then realise that this version of Otto is far more evil and beyond redemption. Perhaps he hails from an alternate reality where he succeeded in killing Spider-Man and destroyed Manhattan with his experiment. That angle has the potential to be more interesting than simply retconning his death at the end of SM2. I also like the idea of Stone playing a Spider-Gwen from another reality where Peter was killed, and then have her and Garfield's Spider-Man forgive and emotionally heal one another. But with Maguire and Garfield, they have to play the same versions they played before. So far I've seen no evidence to suggest that they won't, so I'm not worried about this.

Regarding Daredevil, again I've seen nothing at this stage to make me worry. Cox's Daredevil is IMO the perfect live action incarnation of the character, and the prospect of him returning, even if it's in a lighter format, is insanely exciting for DD comic fans like colors and myself. A point I've made several times in the past is that while Batman has a better mythology, better villains, better setting, etc, I think Matt Murdock is a more interesting and consistent character than Bruce Wayne. And I say that as someone who loves Batman with an unhealthy passion. Bruce changes according to the tone of the story. He can be a talkative team player who never kills, or he can be a taciturn loner who lurks in the shadows and uses lethal force. Bruce's entire personality, temperament and moral compass can be recalibrated according to the preferences of whoever's writing his stories. There are lots of different versions of Batman and there isn't really one definitive characterisation, although each fan will inevitably have his or her preferred iteration. Batman's adaptability is one of his greatest strengths and the reason the character has remained relevant throughout the decades.

By contrast, there's only really one Daredevil. When properly written, Matt's characterisation remains fixed. His mood and mental state might vary depending on the rigours of the story, and he definitely has evolved over the years, but ultimately he's always the same guy: a swashbuckling romantic New York Irish Catholic ninja lawyer with a strong sense of right and wrong, a playful sense of humour and a tendency towards guilt-induced bouts of depression and anger. The emotional and psychological context of his stories can change along with the tone, but Matt's characterisation remains the same. For example, take the following three consecutive issues from Frank Miller's run: 'Where Angels Fear to Tread' (Daredevil Vol 1 #177, December 1981), 'Paper Chase' (Daredevil Vol 1 #178, January 1982) and 'Spiked!' (Daredevil Vol 1 #179, February 1982). The first of these sees Matt retraining with Stick while suffering horrific hallucinations of the day he was blinded and the day his father died. It's a dark psychological horror story in which he battles a demonic manifestation of his own hate.


This is followed by 'Paper Chase', a funny light-hearted story that occurs during a tickertape parade, contains several pop culture references to things like The Muppets, and is full of humorous banter between Daredevil and fellow superheroes Luke Cage and Iron Fist.


This is followed by 'Spiked!', a dark gritty crime story that was part of the Elektra Saga. This issue depicts Vanessa Fisk's ongoing degradation, Daredevil being defeated and almost killed by Elektra, and Ben Urich getting stabbed and psychologically scarred for life.


These three issues have very different tones and varying degrees of comedy, yet all three were written by Miller, and Matt's characterisation is consistent throughout. His level of humour and talkativeness will vary depending on the circumstances, but this isn't like Batman – where his personality will completely change if the story ventures into lighter territory (e.g. Keaton abruptly becoming Clooney as the films grew lighter). Daredevil can function in both light and dark stories without compromising his identity. These tonal shifts have happened several times in the comics, including over the past two decades where the dark Bendis, Brubaker and Diggle runs were followed by the light and funny Waid run, which was in turn succeeded by the dark and gritty sagas of Soule and Zdarsky. The tone of the story can change, but Matt is still Matt. The characterisation of Cox's version – which is extremely faithful to the comics – should prove just as resilient, regardless of how light or dark the surrounding narrative is.

As far as the character's future in the MCU is concerned, I'd direct everyone's attention to the new Disney+ Star channel that was recently announced at the company's Investor Day event. This will allow for r-rated movies and TV shows to appear on Disney's streaming service. So far the line-up is confirmed to include things like The X-Files, 24, Prison Break and the Die Hard movies, along with new original content. This would be the perfect platform for a new Daredevil series, allowing the show to be r-rated while still being exclusive to Disney+.

If Cox is returning in Spider-Man 3, then that's great news for Daredevil fans. It just means we'll get to see him interact with new characters – characters he's frequently encountered in the comics but wouldn't have met in the Netflix show for budgetary and legal reasons – before likely getting his own TV show on the Disney+ Star channel. If Marvel screws this up, I'll be the first to call them out for it. If they get Matt's characterisation wrong or start remaking storylines that were already adapted in the Netflix show, then I'll be right there on the hate wagon. But based on what little we know so far, I don't see any cause for concern. At least not yet.

When it comes to Daredevil, my own preference has always been for darker, spookier and gothic crime stories than the lighter Silver Age adventures of the Stan Lee era (though I do like those too). But if having Matt appear in a more comedic production is a necessary step to getting a proper spiritual sequel to the Netflix show, then I'm ok with that. I'm just happy to know Cox's version might be coming back.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon,  4 Jan  2021, 17:40
Maguire and Garfield have to play the same versions of Peter they played in the past, or else their inclusion is pointless. But with the villains, I have no problem with them playing new versions of their characters. In the case of Doc Ock, I might actually prefer that approach. That way we can see Molina return while at the same time preserving Otto's poignant demise at the end of Spider-Man 2. I can imagine Maguire's Spider-Man encountering a new Doc Ock and mistakenly assuming it's the one he knew, only to then realise that this version of Otto is far more evil and beyond redemption. Perhaps he hails from an alternate reality where he succeeded in killing Spider-Man and destroyed Manhattan with his experiment. That angle has the potential to be more interesting than simply retconning his death at the end of SM2. I also like the idea of Stone playing a Spider-Gwen from another reality where Peter was killed, and then have her and Garfield's Spider-Man forgive and emotionally heal one another. But with Maguire and Garfield, they have to play the same versions they played before. So far I've seen no evidence to suggest that they won't, so I'm not worried about this.

Maguire and Garfield being the same incarnations as seen in previous films is non negotiable. That has to happen.

I see your point about Molina's Ock, and it's well made. It would be easy to believe he drowned and that was it. It could actually play well against an alternate universe Gwen, providing a contrast and regression/growth based on what Maguire/Garfield knew of their demises. My concern would be giving alive incarnations such as Sandman the alternate universe treatment when it's not essential.

I've given some thought to the prospect of a MCU version of Doc Ock, rather than the Raimiverse Ock returning, aaannd ........ I'm still not feeling it.

To me, it takes away a lot of the oomph in said actor returning, because you associate the actor with the incarnation that he appeared as. Being that this isn't just a couple of years of digestion, but, what? 17 years now? That specific cinematic version of Doc Ock is very much ingrained as a classic portrayal. Same as the movie itself being regarded as a top tier, if not at the very top, Spider-Man movie thus far.

One of the things about the Raimiverse Ock that differs from the comic book source material, is that it's conveyed that he's being, essentially, manipulated (or at the very least, egged on constantly) by the tentacle sentient A.I. unleashed thanks to the inhibitor chip being destroyed. The Stan Lee/Ditko Doc Ock, was said to have suffered brain damage during the same accident that gave him the capability to control his tentacle harness that was then, wielded to his body. The 'brain damage' route is a viable option in the notion of a returning Raimiverse Ock. Who's to say that the fading tentacles, when we last see a submerged Otto, didn't implement a last ditch emergency backup source and was able to save him? A lack of oxygen to the brain can cause brain damage, along with memory loss. Realizing this, the sentient A.I. uses this to their advantage, and convinces Ock that not only did Spider-Man, once again, ruin his objective, but also attempted to murder him. None the wiser, Otto perhaps immediately, perhaps not, submits into this narrative and begins exploring other 'possibilities'. Maybe even unintentionally stumbling into the realization that a multiverse exists. With this knowledge, Doc Ock becomes the "Master Planner" and begins assembling a formidable team. Which would work out marvelously if they go the Sinister Six route.

Plus, the idea that the last time we see Raimi's Doc Ock is underwater is interesting. Since it was established during the "Master Planner" story line way back in the day, Ock actually had a underwater lair built. This coupled with fighting Spider-Man underwater being Ock's choice of battle during the very 1st Sinister Six appearance. Was Raimi planting the seeds for this? Hard to say. But I think Raimi has stated that he was a big fan of the Lee/Ditko/Romita era of Spider-Man, so maybe?

I get the idea of his "death" being poignant, but I don't think bringing him back would tear down this character arc. If you go with the notion that Ock is more unhinged, and perhaps has been for years, only to realize/discover the truth of what happened during the nuclear reactor battle, I think his deciding to go against the Sinister Six to atone for his mistakes would keep his 'tragic' character depiction intact.

Actually, the idea of Doc Ock betraying the Sinister Six isn't a new concept whatsoever to be perfectly honest. Despite being seen by villains as a leader of sorts, the guy isn't to be trusted. It's just that in the comics, his betrayals is decidedly more self serving, than anything having to do with being remotely heroic.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri,  8 Jan  2021, 01:12
Who's to say that the fading tentacles, when we last see a submerged Otto, didn't implement a last ditch emergency backup source and was able to save him? A lack of oxygen to the brain can cause brain damage, along with memory loss. Realizing this, the sentient A.I. uses this to their advantage, and convinces Ock that not only did Spider-Man, once again, ruin his objective, but also attempted to murder him. None the wiser, Otto perhaps immediately, perhaps not, submits into this narrative and begins exploring other 'possibilities'. Maybe even unintentionally stumbling into the realization that a multiverse exists. With this knowledge, Doc Ock becomes the "Master Planner" and begins assembling a formidable team. Which would work out marvelously if they go the Sinister Six route.

Plus, the idea that the last time we see Raimi's Doc Ock is underwater is interesting. Since it was established during the "Master Planner" story line way back in the day, Ock actually had a underwater lair built. This coupled with fighting Spider-Man underwater being Ock's choice of battle during the very 1st Sinister Six appearance. Was Raimi planting the seeds for this? Hard to say. But I think Raimi has stated that he was a big fan of the Lee/Ditko/Romita era of Spider-Man, so maybe?

Doc Ock appeared to be a man on a very specific mission in SM2.

He was all about the reactor project. Would he have the time to construct an underwater base of some kind, and why would he even want to? He didn't seem to be that type of supervillain in the Raimi context. He had good intentions that would have destroyed the city by default.

A very creative writer could somehow twist the ending of SM2 to say Ock was sucked into a multiverse portal that happened to appear at the moment his body descended into New York Harbor - explaining his absence in SM3 and beyond. But I don't know, ol' Joker. Like what Nolan decided to do with Dent, perhaps it's just easier to say he's dead and that's it.

Funny, because "you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" applies to each of them but in the reverse.

Comic book logic, like that of comic book film adaptations, is pretty flexible to say the very least. We're 17 years removed from SM2. More than that when the next MCU Spidey comes out, and that's plenty of time to build a underwater base. Why would he want to? Beats me. Just use whatever explanation (given there was one to begin with) in the original "Master Planner" story line (to which I think was the first story line of Ock's where we see he has followers working for him), or state it's for mere practical purposes. As abandoned, decaying warehouses might not be the most ideal locations for whatever he's been keeping himself busy with for all these years. We're not dealing with a "hyper realism" take like Nolan, or the speedy Dent-Two-Face arc we got in 'The Dark Knight' (and even the attempt at realism is wonky at times). Hyper realism just isn't something that applies to either the Raimiverse, or the MCU for that matter.

Course, bringing back the Raimiverse Ock is probably the more unlikely of the two scenarios when debating if we're just going to get MCU versions of past villains, or Raimiverse/Webb villains brought back into the fold. The precedent for a superior MCU version is already there (yeah I'm being sarcastic of course) with the debut of MCU Alex Jones-JJJ in "Far From Home", and just introducing a villain from a different time line kinda makes me think of Thanos from "Endgame" as well. Since that Endgame Thanos came from a timeline where he had very little knowledge of the battles/experiences the "Infinity War" Thanos had went thru. I only bothered to watch the film once, but I do recall Endgame Thanos stating during a fight, "I don't even know who you are!". Indicating that the fight was something of a rematch, with only one of the participants having any knowledge of the previous event.

Kinda takes the oomph out of said battle, in my estimation. As it makes the confrontation build up in the conclusion of the film between the hero/villain much less engaging due to purposely making any such long standing hostility/history between the characters being, essentially, directed only one way.

ComicBook.com is reporting that Charlie Cox has finished shooting his scenes for Spider-Man 3.

https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/daredevil-charlie-cox-scenes-spider-man-3-tom-holland/

It's still not even confirmed that he's in it, but I hope this is true.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 16 Jan  2021, 14:47
ComicBook.com is reporting that Charlie Cox has finished shooting his scenes for Spider-Man 3.

https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/daredevil-charlie-cox-scenes-spider-man-3-tom-holland/

It's still not even confirmed that he's in it, but I hope this is true.

Promising in any case.

SM2 was such a huge part of my childhood. Raimi and Maguire captured a mood that spoke to my soul and still does. I really think the musical choice of Raindrops Keep Fallin' On My Head by BJ Thomas encapsulates my feelings. "But there's one thing I know, the blues they send to meet me won't defeat me. It won't be long til happiness steps up to greet me." THAT is Spider-Man to me. The optimistic but tortured individual who persists. If Tobey is spotted on set I'm going to be very happy indeed.

It would be fantastic if each Spidey actor appeared with their own unique theme playing. Tobey getting Elfman, obviously. For Garfield I'd go with Zimmer, with a rendition similar to what we hear in Cold War.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 17 Jan  2021, 12:22It would be fantastic if each Spidey actor appeared with their own unique theme playing. Tobey getting Elfman, obviously. For Garfield I'd go with Zimmer, with a rendition similar to what we hear in Cold War.

Spot on.

Willem Dafoe has reportedly been seen on set: https://thegww.com/willem-dafoe-spotted-on-set-for-untitiled-spider-man-3/

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  6 Feb  2021, 20:31
Willem Dafoe has reportedly been seen on set: https://thegww.com/willem-dafoe-spotted-on-set-for-untitiled-spider-man-3/

I saw this posted somewhere else as well. Really wish I didn't know that.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  8 Dec  2020, 19:12
I'll rename this thread once the film's title is announced.

Marvel Studios continues dick-imprinting (and thus delegitimizing) all previous incarnations of Spider-Man with their "home" branding.

I swear, the more time goes by, the more it looks like Disney, Marvel and Lucasfilm are all run by the most insecure, penile envy-afflicted creatures on the face of the Earth.

No, I don't like this title.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 24 Feb  2021, 20:04
Marvel Studios continues dick-imprinting (and thus delegitimizing) all previous incarnations of Spider-Man with their "home" branding.

If you think that's bad, try watching Spider-Man: Homecoming.

I don't care what anyone says, bringing Spider-Man into the MCU was one of the worst things they've ever done. But who cares, as long as they're making money, right?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 24 Feb  2021, 18:43

(https://terrigen-cdn-dev.marvel.com/content/prod/1x/smnwh_card.jpg)

If word around the campfire is true, Maguire, Garfield and a bunch of other villains are coming back. The issue I therefore have with re-using 'Home' in all the titles is they could feasibly apply to any of the Holland movies. This movie could easily be called Far From Home with those alternate reality characters entering the scene.

Only thing I am interested in at this stage, are the appearances of the previous Spider-Men/Villains. If they are just regulated for a after-credit sequence in order to provide a "trailer" for DocStrange2, then I'll just watch that scene online and skip seeing this next "Home" movie in the theaters just like I did with the last one.  :)

There are reports of a casting call for courtroom extras: https://movieweb.com/spider-man-no-way-home-daredevil-cameo/

How disappointing would it be if we went to see this expecting Matt Murdock to be Peter's lawyer, and instead it turned out to be Jennifer Walters as a lead-in for the She-Hulk show? That would be quite possibly the cruellest bait-and-switch in CBM history.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 25 Feb  2021, 06:35

Only thing I am interested in at this stage, are the appearances of the previous Spider-Men/Villains. If they are just regulated for a after-credit sequence in order to provide a "trailer" for DocStrange2, then I'll just watch that scene online and skip seeing this next "Home" movie in the theaters just like I did with the last one.  :)

I've got a similar perspective on the movie, except for me the possibility of Daredevil's return is also a major lure. I'm not emotionally invested in the Holland Spider-Man's story arc, if indeed it can be described as such. So I don't mind spoilers. I just want to know two things:

1)   Is Charlie Cox's Daredevil in this?
2)   Is Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man in this?

If the answer to either or both of those questions is yes, I'll go and see it. If the answer to both of those questions is no, then I'm out.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 24 Feb  2021, 20:52

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 24 Feb  2021, 20:04
Marvel Studios continues dick-imprinting (and thus delegitimizing) all previous incarnations of Spider-Man with their "home" branding.

If you think that's bad, try watching Spider-Man: Homecoming.

I don't care what anyone says, bringing Spider-Man into the MCU was one of the worst things they've ever done. But who cares, as long as they're making money, right?

In a way, I can understand why Marvel wanted to change the character up under their own management. Spider-Man has been done quite well in the past so it makes sense to break away from that.

But here's the thing. As I've said before, his Raimi and Webb origins aren't quite perfect. In Amazing Fantasy #15, Peter gets powers and basically becomes a major league a-hole. He could've stopped the thief but he chose not to. He had no motive for doing that except that he was a jerk. Period. And then he paid the price later.

That has never been done in live action even tho it's the foundational element of the character. Getting that wrong is as egregiously bad as showing young Bruce with a dark side before the Wayne murders.

Anyway, there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow waiting to be picked up and Marvel Studios didn't do it. A shame.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu, 25 Feb  2021, 19:38

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 24 Feb  2021, 20:52

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 24 Feb  2021, 20:04
Marvel Studios continues dick-imprinting (and thus delegitimizing) all previous incarnations of Spider-Man with their "home" branding.

If you think that's bad, try watching Spider-Man: Homecoming.

I don't care what anyone says, bringing Spider-Man into the MCU was one of the worst things they've ever done. But who cares, as long as they're making money, right?

In a way, I can understand why Marvel wanted to change the character up under their own management. Spider-Man has been done quite well in the past so it makes sense to break away from that.

But here's the thing. As I've said before, his Raimi and Webb origins aren't quite perfect. In Amazing Fantasy #15, Peter gets powers and basically becomes a major league a-hole. He could've stopped the thief but he chose not to. He had no motive for doing that except that he was a jerk. Period. And then he paid the price later.

That has never been done in live action even tho it's the foundational element of the character. Getting that wrong is as egregiously bad as showing young Bruce with a dark side before the Wayne murders.

Anyway, there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow waiting to be picked up and Marvel Studios didn't do it. A shame.

I would argue that Raimi actually got that one right by adding the motivation. Part of the message is that even when you feel justified in reacting angrily to someone who has flagrantly mistreated you, it doesn't means its okay to do the same because there are consequences anyway. The promoter's jerkery does not make yours good. This bit just adds to the power and responsibility stuff. You have to do right all the time, not just when it is convenient or when you think it is deserved or not. The promoter being an ahole doesn't mean Peter isn't one. It was more important to do right, not less, because of the way he had been treated. The core theme of AMF 15 remains the same and in fact there is a little dimension added. Hardly egregious.

"This guy, Flash Thompson. He probably deserved what happened, but just because you can beat him up, doesn't give you the right to."

Let's face it, Marvel knows how to pander to lazy audiences nowadays, so any attempts to explore the origin story would've been met with "we've seen this before!" complaints from people who don't care about context and how it differs from past interpretations.

With that said, my growing distaste for MCU Spider-Man has nothing to do with the lack of origin story. My issue is trying to make him this happy-go-lucky goofy character dimishes the conflict among the Avengers in Civil War. All that trouble and talk overaccountability and Sokovia Accords, and yet, Peter Parker still thinks it's all fun and games. No real consequences. He has no reason to be in CW on the first place, and Homecoming really drives home that his appearance was purely commercial.

And don't get me started on his terriblly unfunny quips throughout Infinity War. He and most of the Guardians of the Galaxy characters bring down every dramatic moment they're in. I don't mind humour, but now the MCU has resorted to this bathos style of comedy that I have no tolerance for, and Spider-Man has become an example of that.

Kevin Feige Addresses The Potential Returns Of Marvels Netflix Heroes
https://www.superherohype.com/tv/493689-kevin-feige-addresses-the-potential-returns-of-marvels-netflix-heroes

"I think we probably could do it, I think a lot of that stuff comes back to us," said Feige. "There's always rumors online about things reverting, sometimes that's true, sometimes it's not, but I'm not exactly sure of the exact contracts but perhaps someday."

Am I crazy or is that a non-denial? Don't bet the ranch on it or anything. But it seems to me that Feige is being coy. He's not about to blow the lid on a Cox cameo appearance. But he didn't exactly deny anything either.

Golly, so this happened.

(https://i.imgur.com/n8c3Rav.png)

A Netflix exclusivity deal for all theatrically-released Spider-Man movies. If I didn't know better, I'd think Sony just fired a shot across the bow at Marvel.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  9 Apr  2021, 00:56
Golly, so this happened.

(https://i.imgur.com/n8c3Rav.png)

A Netflix exclusivity deal for all theatrically-released Spider-Man movies. If I didn't know better, I'd think Sony just fired a shot across the bow at Marvel.

I don't like this trend but it's a trend nonetheless. So HBO Max needs to get their act together. The service itself isn't the best, as Nolan has observed. They need worthwhile content on there otherwise they're really firing blanks. I'm not a Disney fan, but look at the absolute smorgasbord they're preparing for Disney Plus to the point they're drowning the brand. The GCPD show has my interest but they need something more.

I'm looking forward to No Way Home. Holland isn't my preference but I've accepted it's a take as valid as Maguire or any other weird alternative universe incarnation we see in the Spider-Verse. In that context, points of difference can compliment each other when they're directly presented opposite one another.

Alfred Molina confirms his involvement as Doc Ock.

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/alfred-molina-spider-man-no-way-home-doc-ock-1234953527/

QuoteApr 16, 2021 2:46pm PT
Alfred Molina Details Doc Ock's Return in 'Spider-Man: No Way Home': 'The Tentacles Do All the Work' (EXCLUSIVE)

When Alfred Molina was first invited to reprise his role as the villainous Otto Octavius in "Spider-Man: No Way Home" — the forthcoming third installment of the Marvel Cinematic Universe Spider-Man films, led by Tom Holland — he said he was told to keep it quiet.

"When we were shooting it, we were all under orders not to talk about it, because it was supposed to be some great big secret," Molina said with a laugh during an interview with Variety about his role in the Oscar-nominated "Promising Young Woman." "But, you know, it's all over the internet. I actually described myself as the worst kept secret in Hollywood!"

Instead, not only did Molina confirm his involvement in "No Way Home," he happily detailed his experience making the movie, and returning to a part he first played in Sam Raimi's "Spider-Man 2" in 2004.

"It was wonderful," he said. "It was very interesting going back after 17 years to play the same role, given that in the intervening years, I now have two chins, a wattle, crow's feet and a slightly a slightly dodgy lower back."

When the actor asked Jon Watts, the director of "No Way Home," how the movie would bring Doc Ock back — since, as he pointed out, "I died" — Molina said the director told him, "In this universe, no one really dies."

In "Spider-Man 2," Molina played scientist Otto Octavius, who was poised to be a mentor to Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker when a lab accident turns him into the the murderous Doctor Octopus, or Doc Ock for short — so named for the four mechanical arms fused into his back. On the orders Harry Osborn (James Franco), the tentacled, unhinged Doc Ock's obsession with perfecting his experimental fusion reactor sets him against Peter/Spider-Man and Mary Jane (Kirsten Dunst), and endangers all of New York City. In the movie's climactic scene, Peter appeals to Otto's good side, and he drowns himself and his reactor in the East River before the city is destroyed.

In their early conversations, Molina said, Watts told him that the movie will pick up Doc Ock's story from "that moment" in the river, which in a franchise that include multiverses, time-travel and diverging timelines seems...plausible enough.

Molina's concerns were more practical. He said that he asked Watts how they were going to deal with the fact that at 67, he's aged since the 2004 film.

"He just looked at me, and said, 'Did you see what we did to Bob Downey Jr. and Sam Jackson?'" Molina said with a laugh. In 2016's "Captain America: Civil War," Marvel Studios used CGI to de-age Robert Downey Jr. to look as he did in 1991; and in 2019's "Captain Marvel," also set in the 1990s, a de-aged Samuel L. Jackson played a younger version of his character, Nick Fury.

Molina also cited Martin Scorsese's "The Irishman" as an example of digital de-aging — and its limitations.

"They made Robert De Niro's face younger, but when he was fighting, he looked like an older guy," Molina said. "He looked like an old guy! That's what that's what worried me about doing it again."

"I don't have the same physicality that I had 17 years ago," he continued. "That's just a fact."

Molina realized, though, that the nature of the role would save him. "I then remembered that it's the tentacles that do all the work!"

He sat up straight in his seat. "My basic physical move as Doc Ock, as the actor, is just this," he said as he glared intensely at the Zoom camera and made a menacing noise. "I just do that a lot, and the arms are doing all the killing and smashing and breaking. I'm just going —" he glared again — "with a kind of mean look on my face."

"It was fantastic."

Neither Sony Pictures nor Marvel Studios, which are co-producing "Spider-Man: No Way Home," has confirmed Molina's return, but news of his casting leaked last year, along with reports that Jamie Foxx will also appear as Electro, the villain he played in "The Amazing Spider-Man 2." Later, Zendaya — another "Spider-Man" lead actor — seemingly confirmed Molina's casting during a conversation with Carey Mulligan for Variety's Actors on Actors series.

The casting of Molina and Foxx would unite the three generations of Spider-Man movies: The Maguire/Raimi cycle, the Marc Webb/Andrew Garfield installments and the newest Spider-Mans, starring Holland and directed by Watts.

Evidently, this will continue the story of Doc Ock from the Raimiverse. Sounds like they are really going to go with Ock being "The Master Planner" with this one, especially if it comes out he's been aware of the MCU multiverse and other Spider-Men for some time now.

Another big rumor from a supposedly reliable source is saying that Dafoe ends up being the big bad. He's supposed to kill someone (they're unsure who) and cause Holland's Spiderman to nearly murder.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Sun, 18 Apr  2021, 22:25
Another big rumor from a supposedly reliable source is saying that Dafoe ends up being the big bad. He's supposed to kill someone (they're unsure who) and cause Holland's Spiderman to nearly murder.

Hm. Norman Osborn as the power behind the scenes. Shades of the Clone Saga...

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 10 Jan  2021, 01:55
A very creative writer could somehow twist the ending of SM2 to say Ock was sucked into a multiverse portal that happened to appear at the moment his body descended into New York Harbor - explaining his absence in SM3 and beyond.

There are several ways to attack this plotline and it looks like something similar to the above has been chosen. Interesting to say the least, especially if Doc Ock is the same age as he was in 2004, while Peter has aged. It would be mind bending if it's been a long time between meetings for Peter but not Ock. I'll have to ponder all the possibilities a little more. 

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Sun, 18 Apr  2021, 22:25
Another big rumor from a supposedly reliable source is saying that Dafoe ends up being the big bad. He's supposed to kill someone (they're unsure who) and cause Holland's Spiderman to nearly murder.

I've read the outline and from a Maguire/Garfield point of view there should be enough meat on the bone to satisfy my enthusiasm. Because it's to be expected the incumbent receives the lion's share of the runtime and is the focus of the narrative. As for the other detail, it's completely possible Holland develops a connection with another Multiverse character and reacts badly when Goblin kills them. But it would carry more weight if it's his own MJ, Aunt May, etc.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 19 Apr  2021, 07:30
I've read the outline and from a Maguire/Garfield point of view there should be enough meat on the bone to satisfy my enthusiasm. Because it's to be expected the incumbent receives the lion's share of the runtime and is the focus of the narrative. As for the other detail, it's completely possible Holland develops a connection with another Multiverse character and reacts badly when Goblin kills them. But it would carry more weight if it's his own MJ, Aunt May, etc.

Yeah, but I don't rly want to see those Spider-Men die. I get it, actors love dramatic death scenes and stuff. But I don't like the optics of clearing the decks of every other version of a character so that the new guy can have a monopoly.

I mean, not for nothing but I'll never forgive the Arrowverse for wiping out the Smallvilleverse. F everybody who approved that idea.

It is worth noting that the 'Dafoe is the big bad' has now been verified by at least one other 'insider.' Grain of salt, but with what Alfred Molina had to say...the cat is out of the bag. Dafoe was spotted near the set. We know he's in it. Maybe it is just good guess work based on the castings, but I'm inclined to believe it now.

The final fight is described as being one of the biggest in film history. It took a month to film. Although some of the details are not clear to the leaker, who claims to only have been privy to little pieces of info, they mentioned that one of Stark's arc reactors becomes an object of desire during the hoopla and that the final confrontation between Green Goblin and Holland's Spider-Man involves a fight on top of the Statue of Liberty who now has a Captain America shield instead of a torch.

My guess is that if indeed this is true (which it may not be) Goblin slips away in the fight and goes personal. He has a history with that as we all know from the classic Stacy story line, but this iteration used it to almost win. "First, we attack his heart!" I'm sure he knows that this Spidey has an Aunt May and an MJ.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 19 Apr  2021, 20:04
My guess is that if indeed this is true (which it may not be) Goblin slips away in the fight and goes personal. He has a history with that as we all know from the classic Stacy story line, but this iteration used it to almost win. "First, we attack his heart!" I'm sure he knows that this Spidey has an Aunt May and an MJ.

I'd prefer that. This Peter hasn't encountered loss before, unlike Maguire and Garfield. They could console him through the grieving process.

Edit: Forgot Tony Stark. But he shouldn't really count as a close Peter Parker ally/friend.

If Norman comes back, I'm assuming both him and Ock are dead and somehow brought back? I don't see how this won't mess up the original Raimi timeline. Also poor Harry if he remains dead :(

Yeah, I can kinda buy Ock being pulled into another dimension/revived via the tentacle A.I., but William Dafoe's Norman Osborn death was pretty definitive in the Raimi trilogy. Going off purely from what we've heard of Dafoe's time on the set, it sure came across like his participation was going to be a cameo and that's it. Possibly a memory/flashback of some unseen occurance/encounter during the events of 2002's Spider-Man.

Now we are hearing Dafoe's Norman Osborn Green Goblin is an active part of the plot itself, and (supposedly) the leader of the Sinister Six. Can't say I'm a big fan of that idea. It's nice that Dafoe is back, sure (even especially so in this current MCU incarnation). However, the Sinister Six was Doc Ock's baby and I never personally liked when Marvel tried to shoehorn Norman in there as the leader of the group like they did in the "Ultimate Six" mini that was basically the Sinister Six in the Ultimate Marvel Universe, nor of the "Sinister 12" arc in the 616 universe they tried which came across like overkill of the original concept. Which is funnily enough, ironic. Due to Norman's manic personality, he would probably literally do something like that.

In addition, it's kinda amazing that Ock and Gobby never really had much interactions with one another to speak of (hell, it's surprising just how few appearances Norman's Green Goblin actually had until he was originally killed off back in ASM#122!) up to the whole "Superior Spider-Man" arc that was happening in the mid 2010's. If going off of that, Ock & Goblin (much like their Ultimate counterparts) would not be fans of one another, and there would be some internal power struggles going on within a Sinister Six. As their egos simply cannot allow for a long standing unanimity. They are the alpha's of Spider-Man's rogues gallery, and I couldn't see either one taking orders from the other for very long, or if at all. There's something incredibly simplistic and easy to comprehend about a criminal mastermind rounding up super powered villains, and aiming their combined wrath at a particular individual (such as was the original Sinister Six concept). Rather than going with the MCU concept of pulling villains from alternate earths, possible internal conflict thanks to shoehorning Gobby as the leader, Doc Strange involvement, another death (watch it be Happy Hogan, which would be amusing and very MCU like), ect ect.

Unlike Far from Home, I will likely check this out in the theaters. As my interest is piqued thanks to the non-standard MCU players, but I just don't know how I feel about some of the leaks I've recently read about. We'll see....   

"After Sam Raimi's 'Spider-Man 4' never happened the character was rebooted with 'The Amazing Spider-Man'. There were ambitious plans for a whole slew of movies set in that universe. Drew Goddard was at one point time attached to write and direct a 'Sinister Six' movie for Sony, as part of 'The Amazing Spider-man' and when that fell apart he would be offered a potential 'The Spectacular Spider-Man' reboot (Which later became Spider-Man: Homecoming)

Here's the story of why."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS42hyhnMSc

These are not from the trailer that leaked. These are stills from the movie.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9bpKT5XoAAbucB?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9bpKioXsAYj8qo?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E9bpKu-XIAU_OzA?format=jpg&name=large)

What were they?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 23 Aug  2021, 03:37
What were they?

Ah and gone. They were clear looks at Alfred Molina, Jamie Foxx, and Willem Dafoe. I'll try to update them this morning. Stay tuned.

Updated

If this fake, its a good one, as no one has been able to use Photoshop to debunk it.

(https://iili.io/R1Uqcg.jpg)

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 23 Aug  2021, 14:00
If this fake, its a good one, as no one has been able to use Photoshop to debunk it.

(https://iili.io/R1Uqcg.jpg)

My only reservation about that pic is the heavy use of blue screen. As a layman, I would imagine that would pose a problem considering the amount of blue in the Maguire and Garfield uniforms.

Then again, I might be missing something.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 23 Aug  2021, 14:12

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Mon, 23 Aug  2021, 14:00
If this fake, its a good one, as no one has been able to use Photoshop to debunk it.

(https://iili.io/R1Uqcg.jpg)

My only reservation about that pic is the heavy use of blue screen. As a layman, I would imagine that would pose a problem considering the amount of blue in the Maguire and Garfield uniforms.

Then again, I might be missing something.

I'm now thinking it is fake. This looks like the set from the final confrontation in Spider-Man 3 (2007)

or not?....

(https://i.ibb.co/YpKbqP7/Co-JRMHK-d.webp)

Okay, sorry to keep posting and re-posting. But the first photo I posted of Toby and Andrew has been confirmed real by a pretty reliable source.

Update: The person who leaked this claims they have an 11 minute video.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 23 Aug  2021, 14:12My only reservation about that pic is the heavy use of blue screen. As a layman, I would imagine that would pose a problem considering the amount of blue in the Maguire and Garfield uniforms.

Then again, I might be missing something.

The photos are real. I've also seen the finished trailer with all the CGI inserted. It looks promising and fans will be excited. Makes me question how and why all these leaks are happening, though. The mystique they built up has been torn down in a short space of time. This is what happens when you drag your feet. The trailer should've been released long ago, and I hope the same doesn't happen with The Matrix 4 (Resurrections).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WgU7P6o-GkM

Not a bad trailer. It sets up the concept and teases what's in store.

This movie might support the idea that the MCU is doing away with the concept of secret identities. In a certain type of way, secret identities are pretty impractical with today's technology. But since we're talking about a kid with spider powers and access to completely fictional technology who has fought aliens in different galaxies, I don't see why that kid having a secret identity is a deal-breaker for anybody.

But here we are anyway.

They have an easy escape route in terms of Peter's secret identity being restored, as the trailer demonstrates. I have, however, seen scuttlebutt that despite all Doctor Strange's interference, the film still ends with Holland's identity being known to the world. I like the romanticism and charm of secret identities and would prefer Peter's be restored. But I'm thinking perhaps it won't be.

It's been 14 years in between drinks for Maguire, and 7 for Garfield. I like how their presence in the film wouldn't rule anything out with the events following SM3 or TASM2. Whatever happened happened. We just didn't get to see it. Unlike Batfleck who goes from ZSJL to The Flash, cutting his projected arc short. I'm hoping No Way Home can help fill in that time gap in some way, even if minimally through dialogue.

Quote from: The Joker on Tue, 24 Aug  2021, 03:24
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WgU7P6o-GkM

I'm giving this a pass. Not even Molina, Dafoe or even Maguire and Garfield is getting me excited to see this. I would trade this for a fourth Sam Raimi-directed Spider-Man or TASM3 though. I just cannot sit through another MCU Spider-Man movie.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 24 Aug  2021, 10:51
I'm giving this a pass. Not even Molina, Dafoe or even Maguire and Garfield is getting me excited to see this. I would trade this for a fourth Sam Raimi-directed Spider-Man or TASM3 though. I just cannot sit through another MCU Spider-Man movie.

Whelp, I cannot say the same, as it's all the ingredients that relate to everything except the mouse's version of Spider-Man, that has me interested in this. Plus, the release date falls right on my birthday, and seeing Maguire, Molina, Dafoe, and to a lesser extent Garfield (although I have since appreciated him a lot more Post-MCU incarnation, but more ASM1 than ASM2 for sure) back is just too tempting. They certainly have been missed.

Did anyone else get BvS Superman vibes when MCU Peter was walking past that angry crowd?

Quote from: The Joker on Wed, 25 Aug  2021, 19:15

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 24 Aug  2021, 10:51
I'm giving this a pass. Not even Molina, Dafoe or even Maguire and Garfield is getting me excited to see this. I would trade this for a fourth Sam Raimi-directed Spider-Man or TASM3 though. I just cannot sit through another MCU Spider-Man movie.

Whelp, I cannot say the same, as it's all the ingredients that relate to everything except the mouse's version of Spider-Man, that has me interested in this. Plus, the release date falls right on my birthday, and seeing Maguire, Molina, Dafoe, and to a lesser extent Garfield (although I have since appreciated him a lot more Post-MCU incarnation, but more ASM1 than ASM2 for sure) back is just too tempting. They certainly have been missed.

I understand. But for me, I can't ignore the obvious fact that the film will focus more on Holland, and I can't help but suspect they will somehow neuter Maguire and Garfield in order to prop him up. But even if they don't, an MCU Spider-Man movie doesn't excite me at all. Not even when it brings back old favourites. That says quite a lot.

Regardless how I feel about No Way Home, I do believe it will be far more successful among audiences than The Flash will be. My confidence in The Flash has taken a nosedive and I do see it causing further division among the DC fanbase. We can thank Toxic WB for that.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 26 Aug  2021, 12:31
Did anyone else get BvS Superman vibes when MCU Peter was walking past that angry crowd?

Kinda, but even just going off the trailer, the whole scene featuring a angry crowd seems rather hollow due to the fact that Stark's ward is selfishly just going to ask for this to be undone by a in-universe sorcerer who's more than willing to comply.

QuoteI understand. But for me, I can't ignore the obvious fact that the film will focus more on Holland, and I can't help but suspect they will somehow neuter Maguire and Garfield in order to prop him up. But even if they don't, an MCU Spider-Man movie doesn't excite me at all. Not even when it brings back old favourites. That says quite a lot.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's pretty much another way to prop up the mouse's version. Homecoming was advertised with Iron Man heavily featured, Far From Home had the luxury of coming up right behind Endgame (kinda like with Captain Marvel being placed right before), along with falsely teasing the Multiverse concept, and now No Way Home featuring Spider-Men and villains from previous cinematic incarnations.

Gimmicks and to a lesser extent, timing are a given with this version. There's a reason why the No Way Home trailer has already surpassed The Batman in youtube view counts, and it's safe to assume it's because of the inclusion of Raimiverse villains. It's all that everyone is talking about.

QuoteRegardless how I feel about No Way Home, I do believe it will be far more successful among audiences than The Flash will be. My confidence in The Flash has taken a nosedive and I do see it causing further division among the DC fanbase. We can thank Toxic WB for that.

Yeah, The Flash movie is another that's being propped up by two awesome Batmen. As much as I love Batfleck, just having Keats back as Batman is what is REALLY drawing my interest for that film. If it was just a Flash movie featuring Ezra's Fash going up against a evil version of himself, then my interest would be much, much, MUCH more subdued.

I know you keep closer tabs on what's going on with the ilk currently running the show at Warners, and maybe I should be more concerned than I currently am right now because of all the behind the scenes shenanigans/script variables that can and usually do transpire under Warner productions, but Keaton returning as Batman is just too much of a "shut up and take my money" factor for me.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri, 27 Aug  2021, 01:15

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 26 Aug  2021, 12:31
Did anyone else get BvS Superman vibes when MCU Peter was walking past that angry crowd?

Kinda, but even just going off the trailer, the whole scene featuring a angry crowd seems rather hollow due to the fact that Stark's ward is selfishly just going to ask for this to be undone by a in-universe sorcerer who's more than willing to comply.

;D You put more thought into that than I did. I was merely comparing the imagery between the two movies.

I read that No Way Home even surpassed Endgame as the most watched MCU trailer. And yes, I agree that the Raimiverse characters making a comeback is making a massive contribution to the hype. Nearly twenty years later and they're still beloved. Can you imagine if we were getting Spider-Man 4 instead? Man, I'd argue the hype would've been greater than what NWH is getting.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri, 27 Aug  2021, 01:15
Yeah, The Flash movie is another that's being propped up by two awesome Batmen. As much as I love Batfleck, just having Keats back as Batman is what is REALLY drawing my interest for that film. If it was just a Flash movie featuring Ezra's Fash going up against a evil version of himself, then my interest would be much, much, MUCH more subdued.

I know you keep closer tabs on what's going on with the ilk currently running the show at Warners, and maybe I should be more concerned than I currently am right now because of all the behind the scenes shenanigans/script variables that can and usually do transpire under Warner productions, but Keaton returning as Batman is just too much of a "shut up and take my money" factor for me.

Again, I totally understand where you're coming from. As I said in The Flash sub-forum, I think most of us thought the idea of Keaton making a comeback would remain a pipe dream, so I can't begrudge anyone for getting excited for the movie just for him alone. I was excited too at first, but too much rubbish happening behind the scenes, Warners' despicable PR and the conflicting rumours about the movie has soured my enthusiasm. My only hope is Keaton will put his foot down to make sure they don't make him look like a fool. Another part of me does find it hard to believe Affleck would return to get killed off after coming back to film the epilogue scenes for ZSJL with reportedly great enthusiasm. So much conflicting gossip, from Snyderverse getting erased to getting restored, to Affleck getting replaced by Keaton to expecting getting his cancelled Batman script coming to fruition and Keaton doing Batman Beyond.

But that all that Flash/DC talk belongs in the appropriate sub-forum.

This features a snip of a video leak that features unmasked Andrew Garfield talking to another Spidey from those leaked scaffolding photos. The other Spider-Man is not seen, but we know its Toby.

Worst. Kept. Secret. Ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93KmSW5ChNQ

This one has audio in it. The clips are quick, but you can hear Maguire's voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc8PFVVXlVQ

The leaker is now promising that in two days time they will be unveiling Toby Maguire.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu,  9 Sep  2021, 21:30
The leaker is now promising that in two days time they will be unveiling Toby Maguire.

ffs he's rly milking this thing.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  9 Sep  2021, 22:08

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Thu,  9 Sep  2021, 21:30
The leaker is now promising that in two days time they will be unveiling Toby Maguire.

ffs he's rly milking this thing.

One nugget at a time. It's cute, but maybe it would be nicer if we didn't already basically know the entire movie

Holland isn't everyone's cup of tea, but some misgivings aside, I generally like where things are at the moment. Marvel's Spider-Man 2 was announced for PS5 today. The first game is one of the best Spidey products in existence, and together with the Miles Morales game they're now building an impressive universe. I'm not terribly keen on Morales, or him standing shoulder to shoulder with Peter, but at least he is a seperate character with his own name. I've been playing Shattered Dimensions again recently too. It ultimately led to the Spider-Verse movies, and now Maguire and Garfield suiting up again. There's plenty of decent content to feed on and anticipate.

Leaked image of Garfield back in action hits the Internet. Garfield says it's a Photoshop job.

https://amp.cinemablend.com/news/2573497/andrew-garfield-spider-man-no-way-home-leak-image-peter-parker

I mean, I don't think anybody is buying that. But the party line must be toed.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 15 Sep  2021, 03:22
Leaked image of Garfield back in action hits the Internet. Garfield says it's a Photoshop job.

https://amp.cinemablend.com/news/2573497/andrew-garfield-spider-man-no-way-home-leak-image-peter-parker

I mean, I don't think anybody is buying that. But the party line must be toed.

And Jimmy wouldn't ask anything that wasn't agreed on before hand by Andrews publicist/handler. I think they're doing it as a joke because he's so obviously lying. The video of him has been analyzed more than the Zapruder film. It's legit. It's so legit that he hasn't been touched up yet by the effects people, which I'm told they will because TASM2 is supposed to be very recent for him.

And... it's a fake! The Garfield video has been outted by the faker. Gone is the uncanny valley.

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Fri, 17 Sep  2021, 12:50
And... it's a fake! The Garfield video has been outted by the faker. Gone is the uncanny valley.

So that rly was a fake all along? Interesting...

While we're on the subject of Andrew Garfield, here is a snippet of this interview back in 2014, where he explains how Peter Parker might get along with some of the Avengers. He gives a very insightful explanation over why Peter would resent Tony Stark the most.

https://youtu.be/MrJFilF2zcc?t=175

This perspective is far more thoughtful compared to Holland's hero worship in the MCU.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 24 Oct  2021, 05:48
While we're on the subject of Andrew Garfield, here is a snippet of this interview back in 2014, where he explains how Peter Parker might get along with some of the Avengers. He gives a very insightful explanation over why Peter would resent Tony Stark the most.

https://youtu.be/MrJFilF2zcc?t=175

This perspective is far more thoughtful compared to Holland's hero worship in the MCU.

I can see that. I always figured that Tony's wealth and prestige is basically where the teenage Lee/Ditko or Lee/Romita character was going with his life. Not necessarily Tony's lack of ethics/morals but certainly Tony's level of money and likely fame. Basically, Lee's teenage Peter would've grown up to be sort of like Reed Richards with his scientific genius, Bruce Banner in terms of personality (not necessarily the most stable guy in the world) and Tony Stark in terms of wealth and power.

I have an entire fictional biography for how the Lee/Ditko Peter's life would've played out but it's way too long to post here. Bottom line, he would've had tremendous wealth and power at his disposal. His life in his late twenties and all of his thirties would've epitomized that whole "revenge of the nerds" thing.

Obviously, lesser writers kept wanting more of Peter the loser. But if we're being honest about who the character that Lee and Ditko created truly is then his future would've been bright indeed.

Goblin costume test.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FC-VeQKXMAUUeFa?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

(https://i.imgur.com/wUkVSjv.jpg)

(https://i.redd.it/boj91izlriy71.jpeg)

Wouldn't it be funny if Favreau was playing Foggy?

Quote from: Gotham Knight on Tue,  9 Nov  2021, 15:18
(https://i.imgur.com/wUkVSjv.jpg)

(https://i.redd.it/boj91izlriy71.jpeg)

Charlie Cox's Daredevil and Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man, my two favourite live action Marvel heroes, are appearing in the same movie. ;D My excitement for this film has now surpassed my hype for Keaton's return in The Flash.

Obviously I hope Cox will suit up and fight alongside the Spider-Men, but even if he doesn't, and it's just a cameo, this is still huge. It means that Cox is canonically the Daredevil of the MCU and will almost certainly be appearing in future films or TV shows.

Daredevil's message to his cancellers at Netflix:


I just pray Marvel doesn't screw this up.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  9 Nov  2021, 16:32
Wouldn't it be funny if Favreau was playing Foggy?

I hope they throw in a reference to that connection. Perhaps there could be a scene where Happy Hogan phones Nelson & Murdock trying to reach Matt, but ends up speaking with Elden Henson's Foggy. Or perhaps a scene where Spider-Man gets a glimpse of other Daredevils across the multiverse, including Smith and Affleck, and discovers that Hogan is Matt's law partner in an alternate reality. Casual viewers probably wouldn't get the joke, but Daredevil fans would.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  9 Nov  2021, 17:22
I hope they throw in a reference to that connection. Perhaps there could be a scene where Happy Hogan phones Nelson & Murdock trying to reach Matt, but ends up speaking with Elden Henson's Foggy. Or perhaps a scene where Spider-Man gets a glimpse of other Daredevils across the multiverse, including Smith and Affleck, and discovers that Hogan is Matt's law partner in an alternate reality. Casual viewers probably wouldn't get the joke, but Daredevil fans would.

I would like to see the Affleck version again. I've recently reconnected with his movie through the Director's Cut. Great stuff.

Tobey and Andrew look good, and very much in command. I buy them as seasoned superheroes. Their suits also remain fantastic, and are a welcome return after the MCU made Holland's uniform a piece of Stark equipment. I'm cool with webshooters, spider tracers and the like, but I feel anything more than that becomes excessive. His spider abilities should be more than enough.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue,  9 Nov  2021, 17:22
Charlie Cox's Daredevil and Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man, my two favourite live action Marvel heroes, are appearing in the same movie. ;D My excitement for this film has now surpassed my hype for Keaton's return in The Flash.

I have Maguire's return on equal footing with Keaton's. Both feel definitive in their roles. Or at least have so much nostalgia attached to them that makes them feel extra special. Word is Maguire and Garfield have a lot of screen time. This has the potential to be a very memorable experience indeed.

(https://nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/poster.jpeg)

Judging from the poster, I am actually glad Gobby is going to be wearing his helmet/mask for at least some of the movie. I remember not being a huge fan of the mask when I first laid eyes on it back in late 2001/early 2002, but nostalgia, and simply getting used to it, has pretty much changed my feelings about it over time.

Plus, it was coming across like Dafoe's Green Goblin was going to be quite the Doc Ock emulator in this. Making Osborn the leader of the Sinister Six is one thing, having him, on top of that, wearing dark goggles too, is another. So, yeah. I'm actually glad that Goblin helmet mask is making a comeback now.

Got some rumor nuggets for you! Grain of salt as always!

Matty Murdock appears twice. He has the end credit scene where he discusses being a hero and there's a dramatic pan to his costume.

Venom is a mid credit guy. Peter has a job with Jameson at the Bugle, he meets Brock there.

Gobby wears the goggles in the first two acts. The Raimi helmet returns for the final act.

Both Toby and Andrew are in the movie a lot, but you'll get Andrew first and they build to Tobey.

Ned and May perish.Ned dies in ambiguous kind of way that leaves things open for a heel turn.

You see Raimi's MJ and an unnamed daughter when Tobey goes home. It is implied he got the happy ending.We see Mary Jane happy that Tobey's back, and they embrace and kiss, and then their daughter comes in, and Tobey gets down and hugs her. Andrew returns to his college.

The final swing cuts between the three Spider-Men in their own universes.

The awful Stark Tech Iron Spider crap (my phrasing) gets destroyed very early in Peter's first fight. Ock obliterates it.

The movie gets dark. All villains perish.

We don't learn a ton of new stuff about the multiverse, but forget spell works by "borrowing" parts of other universes/timelines where Peter's identity is still secret, but when it goes wrong, it ends up merging other elements from those universes into the main MCU.

Sandman sacrifices himself to save Spidey. He is killed by Electro.

The final battle is HUGE.

Get ready to cry. The Spidey themes return.

Happy dies, too.

Dafoe is a total monster. They really sell him as the worst villain yet.

I'm okay with all that, especially as I have limited connection to the Holland supporting cast. The villains all dying doesn't bother me either, especially as most were all dead beforehand anyway. I gather they've been plucked out of their timelines before their final moments. All I ask is that Maguire and Garfield remain untouched.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 12 Nov  2021, 04:05
All I ask is that Maguire and Garfield remain untouched.

Same. For me, it's not worth letting the genie out of the bottle if they're only being brought back to get killed off.

Disney MCU humor being cringey as ever.

Doc Ock vs. Tony Stark's Ward appears to be a definite highlight.

Electro looks way better than he did in ASM2.

Kinda surprised we didn't get a bit more of Dafoe's Green Goblin in this trailer. Especially since there's no Tobey or Andrew to speak of once again. Honestly, the trailers seem much more Doc Ock centric as far as the villains go. Kinda has me wondering if Thomas Hayden Church actually participated in this, or is it more of a likeness deal going on with Sandman?

I dig the line that Hollandman (along with Maguire and Garfield) are fighting ghosts because those villains all die fighting Spider-Man. It keeps the continuity of past films intact while also throwing off the shackles. This is a free hit for them all to cut loose one last time before succumb to the inevitable. Apparently Green Goblin (who looks great, and authentically recreated) is a demonic mean mother and manages to inflict serious levels of pain. That's a mouth watering prospect. Goblin was a demonic force of nature in the first movie and knocked the stuffing out of Spider-Man with a thrashing that still hasn't been matched. I absolutely approve of keeping the Maguire and Garfield content hidden - that should be saved for the big screen. And it's only a month away.

Quote from: The Joker on Thu, 18 Nov  2021, 06:05Disney MCU humor being cringey as ever.

Doc Ock vs. Tony Stark's Ward appears to be a definite highlight.

Electro looks way better than he did in ASM2.

Agreed. The villains look great, but some of the dialogue is rather cringeworthy. "Scooby-Doo this crap." Whedon-esque writing like that feels extremely passé in 2021. I know this film centres on a group of teenagers, but is it too much to ask that the adult characters talk like grownups?

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 18 Nov  2021, 08:22Goblin was a demonic force of nature in the first movie and knocked the stuffing out of Spider-Man with a thrashing that still hasn't been matched.

I remember the brutality of that beatdown caused some controversy here in the UK, and it was thought to have been a factor in the British Board of Film Classification's decision to create the 12A age certificate. I hope they'll make Goblin even nastier in this new film.

It looks like it'll be fun, but I absolutely hated the "my name is Dr. Octavius" joke, along with the Scooby Doo line.

It just rubbed me the wrong way for some reason.

Quote from: Travesty on Thu, 18 Nov  2021, 16:58
It looks like it'll be fun, but I absolutely hated the "my name is Dr. Octavius" joke, along with the Scooby Doo line.

It just rubbed me the wrong way for some reason.

It's not my preference either. Compare it to a respectful but laugh out loud comment like "guy named Otto Octavius winds up with eight limbs. What are the odds?"

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 18 Nov  2021, 11:16
I remember the brutality of that beatdown caused some controversy here in the UK, and it was thought to have been a factor in the British Board of Film Classification's decision to create the 12A age certificate. I hope they'll make Goblin even nastier in this new film.

What I like about the Goblin is that he pushes things into pure hate territory. It's the malice of a serial killer who wants to completely destroy your life, with any other desire coming in a distant second place. Doctor Octopus is formidable as the arms make it extremely difficult to lay a punch on his physical body. That's a scary thought, but I think Goblin's view of the world is probably scarier. I really wouldn't want him coming after me.

I was entertained by this clip a lot more than any of these trailers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIAmgIb5gyE

Yes, I dislike the MCU's version of Spider-Man that much.

I'm sticking with the Raimi and Webb films instead. My stance towards NWH remains the same.

Villain character posters:

(https://wegotthiscovered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Elektro.jpg)

(https://wegotthiscovered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Green-Goblin.jpg)

(https://wegotthiscovered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Doc-Ock.jpg)

The film score leaked this weekend. It is definitely the genuine article. I can confirm having listened to it and that it is real sadly because (save for a few fleeting moments) it is the typical boring, generic MCU score. For the record, there were no track titles. I can confirm that Toby and Ock's themes are very, very briefly sampled. No Elfman Goblin.

Also here is a plot leak from China:

The doctor (Strange) failed to cast his spell, and disagrees with Peter on how to handle the villains.

Tobey doesn't die, but gets stabbed by the Green Goblin to prevent Tom's Peter from killing him.

Peter and Strange have a close battle, but Peter wins and confiscates the magic weapon (Or possibly the cube), and steals Strange's sling ring. The ring gets handed to Ned.

Ned and MJ get separated from Peter. Ned and MJ try using the sling ring to find Peter, by saying "Let me find Peter Parker" and opening a portal with a hooded/masked person inside. The hooded/masked person steps out and it's Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man. Ned and MJ make Andrew's Peter prove they're Spider-Man by forcing him to climb walls. Ned tries again and Tobey's Peter comes out in casual clothes.

The part where Peter gets soul beads(???) is very interesting. After Spider-Man wears it, he can automatically avoid Strange's movements. It's his inspiration. (Unsure here)

Ned is rescued by the cloak, looking like a fat sorcerer supreme. He can only open the portals and not close them. In the second half of the film, the Spider-Men(???) appear for about 30 minutes and share most of their scenes.

No Miles.

Garfield rescues the falling MJ. Tom tries to rescue her but is stopped by the Green Goblin. Andrew comes in and saves her.

Don't know about post credit.

There is no Venom, Falcon, Scorpion, Vulture, or Hulk. No real surprise MCU cameos.

Daredevil appears in a short cameo and catches a brick.

There is only one Green Goblin, Willem Dafoe.

The black and gold suit is an inside out version of the upgraded suit with enchantments.

Tom has compassion for the villains and doesn't believe they deserve to die since they were all sympathetic to a degree.

May gets killed by Green Goblin. Ned, Happy, and MJ are all there.

Holland's Spider-Man and the other two Spider-Men talk about the Avengers, but not Iron Man.

In the trailer, the scene where Ned, MJ, and Peter laugh at Ock's name is not misleading.

Doctor Strange appears throughout the film. His role is not big. When the other two Spidey's appear, he is trapped somewhere without his sling ring. Later, Ned opens a portal by mistake and returns him to the final decisive battle where he gets bombed. He spends the entire battle holding the multiverse crack together.

The three Spider-Men do strategize. Holland tells the other two that his world has the Avengers to Tobey and Garfield, the conversation is very beautiful. When the three team up for the final battle, they initially don't work well and are afraid of each other.

The scaffolding photo takes place before the final battle.

Peter initially wanted Strange to turn back time to before Mysterio revealed his identity, but couldn't due to the time stone no longer existing. Strange ends up getting the idea of making everyone forget Peter Parker is Spider-Man.

At this point, the first two Spider-Men do not appear.

Doctor Octopus ends up helping the good guys.

Tom went to the bridge to convince an admissions professor to let him, MJ, and Ned into MIT, but he senses Doc Ock's appearance.

The Iron Spider is absorbed by Octavius. After Ock regains his sanity, he transfers the particles back into the Iron Spider.

Electro gets defeated by Octavius.

Aunt May is killed by Green Goblin. Tom tries to kill the Green Goblin but Tobey stops him, and Green Goblin stabs Tobey in the back.

Tobey was not deaged and looks kinda like an uncle.

Aunt May says "With great power comes great responsibility"

In the ending, Doctor Strange casts a spell to send Tobey and Peter back, but not before they hug and smile at each other as they disappear.

The three most significant scenes are the bridge scene, FEAST, and the final battle (Statue of Liberty)

As soon as Sandman came to help Peter, Strange enchants Peter's suit so it teleports Sandman into the prison.

In the trailer, the last scene of the Spider-Men dealing with the Sandman, Electro, and Green Goblin is misleading. There is a shot in the trailer where Tom jumps to fight against the three villains. The real shot should be the three Spidey's jumping to the head of the statue one by one and then fighting 3vs3. It is very similar to the fanmade trailer except that they don't jump to the head together, they jump there one by one. They also have different poses. The sequence for their landing is: left, right, middle. They didn't hide Tom's landing and it was the one used in trailer.

In the end, the villains actually get sent back reformed and they don't die in battle.

The arc reactor Electro wears was left by Stark, and the villains grabbed it when they rebelled against the good guys.

The villains rebelling was instigated by Green Goblin, who felt the Spider-Men were going to kill them all.

Only five villains, no sixth.

Strange failed to cast the spell because Peter kept trying to make exceptions, which caused him to lose control of it.

Garfield doesn't bring up Gwen's death, but he does notice how close Peter and MJ are and is very touched. This is shown through close-ups.

There is no ties to Dr. Strange 2.

Garfield and Tobey do not appear in FEAST.

The air punch in the trailer was from Garfield, and he's doing a backflip in that scene(??)

In the first trailer, we see Peter run in his black and gold suit. This is because he knows Norman Osborne is at Aunt May's. He's worried she is in danger and rushes to save her.

The shot of Happy in the first trailer is him witnessing May's death. At that point he had just driven from FEAST.

Green Goblin also appeared in the bridge fight.

Lizard and Sandman are played by Rhys Ifan and Thomas Hayden Church respectively.

Garfield is wearing his TASM2 suit.

Lizard(?) is already caught by Strange when he appears.

Aunt May's scene was a point of contention. The front part of the glider stabs May and she falls down, Green Goblin tries to use a pumpkin bomb to finish her but Tom slaps away the bomb like in the trailer. Most of the damage is taken by him. They help each other up in the rubble and talk for a while. At first, we are led to believe May is fine, but she suddenly collapses and turns out she is fatally bleeding from the stab wound. Toms's hand is covered in blood

Electro got the reactor since Stark left Peter many technological gadgets, including a reactor.

The special effects are good, and we see all three of the Spider-Men swing with coordination. Very cool.

There's a shot in the trailer where JJJ smiles at the sky , that's when he sees Tom's spidey. There aren't a lot of other shots of JJJ, he has the news report at the beginning. In the middle of the movie he drives the Daily Bugle car to FEAST. Tom's spidey also contacts him to help draw out the villains. At the end of the movie, he says that Spider-Man is a hero.

Whoever Dr. Strange is trying to stop from coming through in the trailer doesn't show up. It's just glowing figures.

The end of the last film is the beginning of this film. Peter took MJ and fled through the sky, then underground, then to his house. Happy and May were flirting at home. The atmosphere was cheerful.

At the end, Peter finds Happy at May's grave, but he doesn't remember Peter.

Tobey has no web-shooters and the three discuss it.

Question: Did everyone forget Peter Parker entirely or just that he was Spider-Man. Answer: After the spell, Peter went to a shop where MJ worked and MJ no longer remembers him. When Peter went to find MJ again, he writes a note as he feels like he would be unable to speak to her. He goes to the coffee shop, sees MJ and Ned together, and leaves as he likes seeing MJ and Ned together. This scene was very well composed.

In the final scene, Peter lives alone and swings away wearing a red and blue jersey.

Dr. Strange teleported Peter and Ock from the bridge, but doesn't catch Green Goblin in time.

In the final battle, Ock disables Electro's reactor. Strange comes and ends up finishing the spell, and doesn't appear again throughout the movie.

Question: According to basic logic, when Dr. Octopus was brought in, the Green Goblin was dead, and when the Sandman was brought in, the Green Goblin/Ock was dead. Answer: Doc Ock says that Norman Osborn is dead, but it is here they meet again.

In the end, everyone forgets Peter (Including Strange) but they do remember that there is a Spider-Man.

Tobey and Garfield first engage in scientific research to find antidotes to restore certain villains back to themselves. They only suit up for the final battle.

Several villains have conversations with their respective Spideys.

The farewell between MJ and Peter before the spell was complete was the kiss in the trailer.

Tom took Strange's sling ring and took Strange far away so he couldn't get back. Only after Ned accidentally creates a portal does he return. The doctor enchants Peter's web-shooters to teleport the villains into his prison when his webs touch them.

When green goblin rebelled, Ock was already free of his arm's control and was helping electro relieve himself. When the rest rebel, Electro takes the arc reactor and mounts it to his chest. Each villain ends up getting cured by the end. Electro's cure is a mount on his chest, Lizard's is a gas, Sandman's is a type of light, Ock's is a device on his back, and Green Goblin's is a neck syringe.

Not long now until pizza time. I have my ticket and will be having a meat lovers before walking in. This is one of the few things that's exciting me at the moment, along with Resurrections and The Batman. Hopefully I can see those before I swing. And in regards to Giacchino's Spider-Man scores, even though I find them bland overall, Swinging Set is sensational. He passed the most important test, which is the main hero theme.

At least one other source has come out and claimed the Chinese leak is true.

The leak was correct. I've just scene the entire final battle. Spoilers: Ock's face turn melted me. Also Tobey and Ock have a conversation which completely annihilated me.

Funny bit when all the Spidey's are arguing because they're losing the fight.

Holland. "I don't wanna brag but I will. I've fought on a team before. I was on the Avengers."

Tobey: 'That's great!...What is that?!"

Good stuff. It's all over Youtube btw.

It feels weird in actually looking forward to a new Spider-Man movie, but here we are. Already got tickets for Friday (coincidentally my birthday), and some friends and I are going out to eat that evening, then checking out the 10PM showing later. Should be a fun night. 

Happy birthday for tomorrow, Joker! I hope you and your friends have a good time. I think you will.

I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about No Way Home after reading some of the reviews. I've noticed a lot of critics are now acknowledging the problems with the previous two solo Spidey flicks. Problems which they overlooked at the time, but which fans like us were quick to point out. Some critics are claiming that those problems have been addressed in the new movie. For example, the high-tech Spider-Man suits have apparently been ditched in favour of a more basic traditional costume. And the theme of responsibility has finally been raised, with Uncle Ben's death getting referenced and Peter having to confront the negative consequences of his actions without having Stark Industries bail him out every step of the way. I don't know if all the problems have been fixed, but it does sound promising. If nothing else, I get the feeling it's going to be the best entry in the MCU Spider-Man trilogy.

I've been avoiding spoilers for the main plot, but I have read about the appearance of a certain lawyer from Hell's Kitchen. VERY MINOR SPOILERS: Apparently he appears in one scene towards the end of the movie and only in his civilian guise. I'm cool with that. I'm just happy to know he's back.

Saw an advance screening.

Spider Meh. The movie has no authenticity in its interactions between characters. Nearly everything is played for dumb jokes, and I mean just about everything. Holland is an annoying douchebag and the Iron Boy elements are still there with tech suits and the like. Something innate is missing with him. The other Spider-Man actors are okay but are operating within the Disney formula.

The way I see it, the villains aren't rehabilitated, they just lose their powers and accept forced normality because of it. And get sent back to their timeline deaths anyway. So much damage gets caused for nothing, which seems very childish. Spider-Man is about helping people, I guess, but responsibly is at the top of everything. He accepts stone cold truth even if it causes him pain. The other Spider-Men may not like that their villains died, but would accept that they did, had to in that specific moment, and it still has to happen now.

I was looking forward to Andrew and Tobey, but overall the movie is overrated and just doesn't do it for me. It's not my Spider-Man. Just not really feeling it. If I had to give it a score, it'd probably be 6 or 7. The concept doesn't make this the best Spider-Man movie of all time, that's still head and shoulders Spider-Man 2.

I liked it quite a bit. I was never a huge fan of the MCU Spidey(didn't hate him, but never loved him), but I really liked him here. I would put this up there with SM2 and Into the Spiderverse. I really don't know how to talk about this movie without spoiling everything, so I wont right now. But I did like this movie.

One thing I didn't like was Electro. Jamie Fox was pretty bad in this. I think it was his lines. They were just bad. But that's about the only low point for me.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu, 16 Dec  2021, 18:12
Happy birthday for tomorrow, Joker! I hope you and your friends have a good time. I think you will.

Thanks, Silver! Appreciate it. Yeah, it should be a fun night. Having not seen this yet, I don't see how this can't be better than the previous two Stark Ward movies. Which isn't a tough hill to climb to be perfectly honest. The inclusions of Tobey, Garfield, Molina, and Dafoe pretty much guarantee that.

Quote from: Travesty on Fri, 17 Dec  2021, 04:11
I liked it quite a bit. I was never a huge fan of the MCU Spidey(didn't hate him, but never loved him), but I really liked him here. I would put this up there with SM2 and Into the Spiderverse. I really don't know how to talk about this movie without spoiling everything, so I wont right now. But I did like this movie.

One thing I didn't like was Electro. Jamie Fox was pretty bad in this. I think it was his lines. They were just bad. But that's about the only low point for me.

I don't outright hate the movie but I feel like it could've been so much more. I don't like the tone. For example, two characters walk through a portal, into some random kitchen, and the mother says for them to clean up the webs as she's now going to bed. Uh huh. I'm all for fantasy but I need believable human interaction. After this I'm really longing for The Batman.

Well, yeah, there were some jokes that fell totally flat. Hell, I think the first act wasn't great, and most of the jokes were bad in it, but the 2nd and 3rd act more than make up for it. I don't think the movie is perfect, but I liked it quite a bit. I enjoy the MCU, so if you're on of those people that hates it, this wont sway you. This is still very much an MCU movie.

And as much as I don't like the "Iron/Stark Spidey" of the MCU, by the end of this movie, you see that we'll start to see a more traditional take on Spiderman, which I'm definitely looking forward to.

Holland's fast talking, excitable routine is grating and I don't connect with him in the same way. When the other two appear, even though their scenes aren't all that numerous, they show him up effortlessly. But he's the actor who will hold the record for film appearances. Whatever happens next, the guts of his Peter are hollow.

His Peter hasn't struggled financially - he's lived in a rich world. That's highlighted again when Peter and May move to a skyscraper apartment which is given to them on a platter. He hasn't been a middle class kid from Queens. We had Hollandman adoring Tony Stark, with nothing concrete said about Uncle Ben. Now May will be his Uncle Ben influence. Obviously you can have more than one inspiration, but it feels messy and writing on the run to me. May's death also was fumbled, I felt. It didn't hit the emotional highs it should have. It was more awkward than anything.

I also think the movie is too long. They could've cut half an hour or so to move things along, because I was thinking "get on with it already" quite a lot. The movie has some nice scenes but I don't think they are allowed to simmer. They just happen and then the MCU tone continues onward. I say thank goodness Tobey and Andrew made their films when they did. There's a deeper sense of authenticity with them.

SPOILER REVIEW


Alright. First off, I'll say that I enjoyed this for the most part, but knew exactly what it was going to be walking in. It's a Disney MCU movie, and as a consequence, as the great Martin Scorsese would say, it's a "theme park ride" than an actual movie. Has been the case for quite a long time now, and that's what NWH delivered. It's not "Gone with the Wind", it's just a ride. Nothing more, nothing less.

Kinda similar to "No Time to Die", NWH is a film that honestly doesn't stand on its own two feet outside of being a Franchise Film. Sure, I appreciate the Cinematic Event nature of it, but NWH is NOT my favorite Spider-Man film.

With Disney, and their hardened core of supporters that rave about every single MCU flick that comes down the pike (Eternals proves there are exceptions I guess .. hooray?), I would have been surprised if this wasn't being touted from the onset as the "Bestest EVAR!", but it is what it is. Tune that crap out, and just go in with what you already should painfully be aware of as a formulaic MCU movie with heavy nostalgia from NON-MCU movies. With that, I think it's enjoyable, but that's not exactly high praise either. All that said, it's hard to deny that the movie is special in a unique way. That can't really fade even after the hype dies down and people become more critical.

With the film itself, NWH definitely has a lot of FFH DNA that I REALLY could have done without. I tried to give Homecoming a shot, didn't care for it. Only watched it once. FFH came out a few years ago, had absolutely no interest in seeing it in the theaters, and only eventually saw it (even reluctantly) after a bud got it on blu ray. Watched it one time, and once was more than enough. So yeah, all the FFH stuff wasn't doing anything for me, but timeline wise, NWH is taking place directly after that movie, and it's ramifications on Stark Industries trusty ward.

Now, parallel my thoughts with Disney's version of Spider-Man to Raimi's version, and it's night and day. The Raimi trilogy for me were the Spider-Man movies that worked well, even the worst of it, mostly stemming from Spider-Man 3 is somewhat held in high esteem these days and not just through internet memes, and/or nostalgic enjoyment. As as I mention in my Ghostbusters Afterlife review, you can really tell when the filmmaker and people involved actually give a damn about the material, and not just doing it for ill intentions, or warping the character and supporting players to better fit a pre established notion/universe. Or worst yet, forcing them to fit their own ideological purposes.

In retrospect, I think the ASM movies with Garfield was a mixed bag, but I believe the first ASM movie was made with at least some focus and heart. Which was a far cry from the unfocused mess of ASM2 (bouncing back and forth between the ASM1 approach, and Raimi's take), but that first Andrew Garfield movie, especially in my own personal comparison with the two movies that came after it (Homecoming and Far From Home), it's alright. I've grown to be much more accepting of it.

Holland's movies I just don't have much reverence for, and as a repercussion of that, I wasn't really invested in his scenes when watching NWH. It just didn't do anything for me, cause I had already mentally checked out on Holland a long time ago. I understood Disney's version of Spider-Man wasn't "my" Spider-Man, so I just let it be. There's plenty of people of like this take, and that's great. Nothing wrong with that. I just decided to bow out a long time ago.

Having said all of that, the Raimi films are pretty consistent with character and continuity, where the MCU take just clearly isn't. Take "Michelle Jones" for instance (who apparently does have the last name "Watson" but doesn't want to go by it for some unstated reason), she does relatively ok in NWH, emulating the kind of "Mary Jane" that's a little bit more faithful in spirit to the comics' "MJ". In NWH, Michelle plays, essentially, an unwavering pillar of strength for Peter. Which, needless to say, is a VERY far cry from the constant snark and condescending person she was in Homecoming and to some lesser extent with FFH (from what I can remember). It's pretty much like all those traits have completely disappeared from this "MJ" in NWH. Despite there not being a time jump whatsoever from FFH and NWH. Inconsistent? You bet, but again, it's MCU. Go figure.

Contrast her with the appearances of Garfield and Maguire, and they're more decent. The movie continues to move at a break neck pace when introducing first Garfield, and then Maguire's Peter Parker/Spider-Man into the MCU Universe, and as a consequence doesn't honestly carry the weight one would naturally expect, but it's pretty much in keeping with the stylistic approach the movie as a whole chose to take. So, yeah. In how Tobey and Garfield are introduced in this doesn't really feel out of place. However, once Tobey and Garfield return, the movie decidedly becomes less about Holland, and more about the novelty spectacle of having all three Spiders-men in one movie. Which was the big selling point of NWH, and to which each getting their big "moments". Holland dealing with the death of AILF May/putting the plan into motion of getting to save all the villains, Maguire coming across as the experienced/wiser Spider-Man out of the three and stopping Osborn from getting impaled by the Goblin Glider (again), with Garfield taking solace in that he does save the girl this time. BTW, Mary Jane Watson from the Raimiverse, and Gwen Stacy from the Webbverse do actually get mentioned in this, so that was nice.

With the villains, I was pretty much OK with how they were represented. Course, Alfred Molina returning as Doc Ock, and William Dafoe reprising the Green Goblin were the undisputed highlights, and had the most characterizations out of the bunch. Both really are definitive in their roles, and I think that will last for some time to come. The fight sequence between Doc Ock and Peter Tingle was a highlight for me, and although I didn't particularly care for Ock getting nerfed by the nanobots towards the end of that sequence, I did like how absolutely vexed and authoritative he came across towards everyone before he got cured. Even snapping, and being dismissive of Osborn a few times. With Dafoe's return as Gobby, I would say he came across a much more of a threat than either Keaton's Vulture, or Gyllenhaal's Mysterio ever could have hoped to be (I was legit curious how much he was putting on between Norman's personality and that of the Goblin persona). Evidently, Norman is indeed aware of his son Harry's ultimate fate, that was a interesting character moment for him. Which was kinda reflective, in my mind, of when Marvel decided to bring Norman back in the comics during the mid-late 1990's (following Harry's death). I also thought it was kinda amusing that Norman was the one helping Stark's #1 guy with the antidotes where I would think Doc Ock or even the Lizard were more likely better candidates for such a task, and thus better suited, than the industrialist minded Norman Osborn. Course, as pissy as pre-cured Doc Ock was, and ominous the Lizard was conveyed as, I guess Norman came across as the lesser of those two evils...

Anyways, DAMN it was good to see those two back!

With Thomas Haden Church returning as the Sandman, and Rhys Ifans reprisal of the Lizard, I was actually surprised they had as many scenes as they did. I assumed that their roles were going to be absolutely minimal, with very little dialogue, but both do get their moments. With the Lizard, I think probably his best piece of dialogue was when he made the omnious offer to Electro about upgrading him. For anyone who's seen ASM, you know exactly what he's implying there. Sandman, has the better arc between the two, and is very much the character that departed from the end of Spider-Man 3 when he's initially re-introduced in NWH. I didn't really care for the fact that Sandman remains as a sand like being even during scenes where he's obviously relaxed, but that's not surprising considering how he was coming across during all the advertisements and hype surrounding the film. Church himself does actually appear near the end, which was nice. It was good to actually see him without the CGI sand form for a few moments.

As far as other villains go, Venom from the Raimiverse, and Rhino from the Webbverse actually get shout outs, so that was pretty cool. Would have loved hearing about a Bruce Campbell/Mysterio and John Malkovich/Vulture from the Raimiverse since we unfortunately never got to see that, but oh well.

Electro's presence really doesn't make any sense, but whatever. The rule in NWH, is that the villains got transported to the MCU because they know that Peter Parker is Spider-Man regardless in which universe. That's how I understood it. However, this plot point is contradicted by Electro when he decides to remark that he thought Spider-Man would be Caucasian. Indicating he had no idea that Andrew was Spider-Man in their universe.

Another thing I felt was "off" was that apparently everyone but Harry Osborn knew Norman was the Green Goblin and killed himself with his own glider? Interesting. Again, NWH is entertaining, but it's in spite of the script. As far as the fates of the villains, I assume that the Raimiverse/Webbverse remains intact with Tobey and Garfield returning to their respective places in the multiverse as is, with the reformed villains going off into alternate but very similar timelines ... otherwise it would get incredibly messy, extremely fast.

With the "Brand New Day" inspired plot element of EVERYONE forgetting who Spider-Man is, really felt a little weird considering what I just watched in NWH leading up to that point. Peter Tingle was an absolute emotional wreck when AILF May got killed; needed his close friends and 2 other Spider-Men from alternate universes for support. Even still, he's shown to be on the verge in committing cold blooded murder during his fight with Gobby, but suddenly he decides that he will go with the vigilante thing all alone from now on. Suuureee. Ok. Yeah, from even semi realistic perspective, I see THAT ending well. You bet.

Also, if Peter Tingle talked to "Ned" and Michelle, even if they reject what he's telling them, at least the germ of the idea gets planted in their head and they may come to terms with it later. But no, the somber ending is clearly what they wanted, and that's what we got. 

Speaking of messy, the mid end credit sequence with Tom Hardy's Venom felt just as weird as it was when he got transported into MCU-Disneyland at the end of Venom 2. I think I remember Hardy's Venom mentioning something about the symbiotes having a hivemind in Venom 2. The implication being that Venom is aware of things across the multiverse. Which is a very fast and loose explanation of how he "knows" Stark's ward when he saw him on tv at the end of Venom 2. Presumably because Hardy's Venom has the same knowledge the Raimiverse Venom had.

Ultimately, NWH felt like a spectacle of a soft reboot, with a less than stellar script. Complete with at the conclusion, we have Holland sans Stark nanotech suit to a more traditional homemade suit that's more comics-accurate, but boy-oh-boy was this ever a convoluted way of getting there. The MCU "humor" is ever present, and doesn't really land. Even at the screening I attended, the chuckles and laughs were far and few in between. With most attempts of joking falling absolutely flat. It would be nice if Feige and Alonso would finally scale that crap back, but they must find it to be a crutch of some sort? Who knows.

Overall, I'd give NWH as a piece of entertainment a 8 out of 10. The story is decidedly flawed, but it's a extravaganza of visuals. I'll give a ranking of all Spider-Man movies later, but yeah, my preconceived notion about this being the better out of the MCU "Spider-Man" hot-takes was absolutely correct thankfully.

I don't think the NWH movie we got was the best possible version of this story and I'd still edit the script if I could, because there are some obvious GLARING plot holes, but at the same time, I'd say it's actually okay to give a film like this a little leniency, imo. I tend to overthink things a lot, but this isn't your typical film. Innovation and pioneering will earn you the occasional hall-pass. In this specific case, it's more like: turn off your brain, turn on your heart, and just enjoy it for what it is; a spectacle of a ride.

I won't repeat what I've already said. I'll now focus on what I liked.

As someone who initially resisted Andrew Garfield because the Raimi series was cut short, let's just say he should still be playing Spider-Man. He's really good here. His rescue of Tom's MJ is possibly the film's best moment, and really caps things off for his run, even if it's a small moment. He carries emotional baggage, which gives his incarnation depth.

Some leaks suggested the world would still know Tom's identity by the end. So I'm glad it was forgotten. That's how it should be, while also getting to explore what such a catastrophic occurrence would be like for the man and his family at the start of the film.

Tobey is pretty much exactly how I'd expect him to be at this point of his crime fighting career. He's visibly older and wise. Walking around in normal clothes but with his suit underneath, pointing out how securely he protects his identity. He's always been a shy, good but quirky guy, so that translates really well as someone older. I'm glad he worked things out with MJ because that gives stability in his life.

Tobey stopping Tom from killing Goblin was in character. He doesn't want his counterpart to blacken his soul, especially for someone who will be sent back to his timeline death anyway. The speeches Tobey and Andrew give Tom are standout moments too. That's the heart and soul of the character right there. It was good they recreated the three Spider-Men pointing meme too.

Goblin and Ock are very good in this. Dafoe and Molina step back in like no time has passed at all. Dafoe's voice and facial expressions scream demented villain, and he still hands out beatings. Ock referring to the power of the sun in the palm of its hand during his first scene was excellent. Strong continuity, with the viewer knowing it's very much seconds from his death in SM2. Having him as a force for good made sense too - it's consistent with the Raimi film. His comment to Peter about him being all grown up was also nice.

The reveal of Church when he's cured of the sand is a long awaited and satisfying reveal. I was glad to see him appear in the flesh, because I wasn't sure if he would or not. Lizard didn't do much me, nor Electro. But all in all, the villains were pretty good. Funny how Tom hasn't fought a villain that's truly his though. He's had Tony Stark influenced villains and others from other timelines.

Some nice references to the past were spotted by me. Goblin saying he's something of a scientist, Tobey referencing his bad back and commenting on his organic webbing. And I think Tobey being stabbed by Goblin is inverting what happened at the end of SM1, which wasn't a bad touch.

I have issues but things considered, I think I'm giving it a 7.

Overall, I left the theater very satisfied. Might not have reached the heights of the original Raimi films, but it's easily a highlight of the genre after the swan song of Endgame and the further uncertainty brought on by the pandemic. At the end of the day, it felt like another love letter to the fans from Marvel and Sony. For the fans that debated between the three different reboots, I can say this had something for everyone. There were a few consistency issues though, which is to be expected when wrangling together three different franchises.

Just to get this out of the way, the Spider-Men were all handled perfectly. Writing and acting met in perfect harmony and the result was feeling like we've never stepped out of their respective universes. I've actually started to rethink my critical approach to Garfield's Spider-Man after seeing them all together; it's clear that they all have distinctively different personalities without being written in an exaggerated fashion. And this allows them to all have chemistry together onscreen (three carbon copies wouldn't be very interesting at all).

The same goes for the villains, but due to the sheer number of them, there's no way to possibly give them all the proper attention onscreen. As a result, they just kind of float in and out of scenes as needed. I'd like to address them each and also mention their MCU redesigns as well, since conscious design changes were made to each character for better or for worse.

The Lizard - Honestly pretty unnecessary to the plot altogether. Character design basically remained unchanged.

Doc Ock - Minor design changes that weren't fully explained, but overall still great looking. Acting was on par with the fantastic Spider-Man 2 performance. He does get sidelined a lot because he's probably the most "good" of the villains. Was unfortunate to see him treated more as a joke after being easily disarmed with Stark's nanotech. This came off the heels of a great fight scene, too. The trailer was a bit deceptive in inferring that he would become more of a threat after integrating with the nanotech versus completely neutralized.

Electro - He looks and acts completely different. And both are way better than his original appearance IMO. I don't mind revisions like this, Jamie Foxx seemed much more natural in the role, and we got something much closer to the classic Electro outfit.

Sandman - He's an interesting character in that he's not evil and just trying to make sense of everything. Very much a natural progression from his Spider-Man 3 ending. Though I didn't care for his new design in that he's incapable of changing back to human form; that seemed like a step backwards. But this design choice seems to be born out of convenience or laziness since Thomas Haden Church did not seem to appear in the movie besides his voice. I was excited to see him in the flesh after being "cured", but Twitter pointed out that this was recycled footage from 2007. Which explains why his expression doesn't match up with what's going on.

Green Goblin - Dafoe is the real scene stealer. Him and Molina were both perfect castings that were killed off in their first outings because the filmmakers prioritized story over franchises (I believe Church would have made the ranks as well, but the cooler reception of Spider-Man 3 ruined that for him). Anyways, this movie offered a means to give them the sequel they deserved, and they made the right choice for their main baddie. I don't think the writing was all there because I didn't feel there was a clear enough motive for his villainy... but seeing the Goblin return may have been the most rewarding experience behind the three Spider-Men.

But onto the costume; for the people that complained about the 2002 suit looking too much like a Power Ranger, I think the sequel proved it could be worse. We were hyped up with images of the original suit recreated, only to have Norman destroy the mask after barely a minute. This is the bad kind of bait and switch since the redesigned maskless, steampunk suit didn't really do it for me. Oh well, a bad costume never ruined a fantastic performance (Cap in the Avengers comes to mind).


Now while listening to the fans is most often a good thing, I feel like they took a very direct approach by the end of the film by forcefully rebooting the continuity to have Peter be broke, anonymous, and admittedly rocking the best looking homemade suit we've seen. It's the perfect premise for future installments, but we also didn't get there organically. Oh well, the door is still very much open for a franchise that has proved it has a lot of life left in it.

https://deadline.com/2021/12/spider-man-no-way-home-monday-box-office-1234900099/

There goes the "muh pandemic" argument that was so often parroted following box office underperformance. Funnily enough.