Did it make anyone here mad that Alfred let Vicki into the Batcave? I didn't even know that this was an issue until I heard Sam Hamm say that it was on the B89 DVD. Why was this such a problem? It's not like he let the pizza guy in!
I could have sworn we had this topic already started on here. Maybe that was on the old forum? Its been a year, my memory may be bad.lol Anyway, this is a good topic to discuss.
This is the way I took that whole situation. Alfred let Vic into the Batcave as a last ditch attempt to try to save Bruce from the life he chose for himself. Through the movie Bruce avoids the question that he knows he must ask himself. Can he give up being Batman for a normal life with someone he loves? Alfred is the one who ultimately forces Bruce to confront the situation. I think it was a great scene. If you watch Keaton in the scene he looks to be very angry and even delivers his lines in a somewhat aggressive manner. He knows that his mission is his one true path even if it means giving up everything he wants.
Quote from: shadowbat69 on Tue, 7 Oct 2008, 03:47
I could have sworn we had this topic already started on here. Maybe that was on the old forum? Its been a year, my memory may be bad.lol Anyway, this is a good topic to discuss.
This is the way I took that whole situation. Alfred let Vic into the Batcave as a last ditch attempt to try to save Bruce from the life he chose for himself. Through the movie Bruce avoids the question that he knows he must ask himself. Can he give up being Batman for a normal life with someone he loves? Alfred is the one who ultimately forces Bruce to confront the situation. I think it was a great scene. If you watch Keaton in the scene he looks to be very angry and even delivers his lines in a somewhat aggressive manner. He knows that his mission is his one true path even if it means giving up everything he wants.
Absolutely. You hit it right on the head. Kim Basinger was also excellent in that scene too because she was afraid for him, yet when she asks him if they can try to love each other, you could tell from her voice that she knows that he has to do it. BTW, if this topic is old news I apologize. I'm still relatively new here and have not gone through all of the topics. :)
When I was a kid I never noticed how bad of an idea it was for Alfred to do it, but it really fit in well with the story and how the characters were connected, and made the love story part of it complete for the film itself.
Overall it made the films overall story and theme flow really well, only bad thing is, is if Vicki Vale ever wanted to let out the info she could to blackmail Bruce, which I doubt she would, but its a possibility.
For me, I always thought that, Vicki put the pieces together after she saw the paper of young Bruce Wayne. And then maybe off camera, Vicki arrives at Wayne Manor, asks to see Bruce, Alfred tells her different but then Vicki states that she knows Bruce is Batman and let's her into the Batcave.
Besides, Bruce was going to tell her anyway, so I don't see why you would get mad.
Quote from: shadowbat69 on Tue, 7 Oct 2008, 03:47
I could have sworn we had this topic already started on here. Maybe that was on the old forum? Its been a year, my memory may be bad.lol Anyway, this is a good topic to discuss.
This is the way I took that whole situation. Alfred let Vic into the Batcave as a last ditch attempt to try to save Bruce from the life he chose for himself. Through the movie Bruce avoids the question that he knows he must ask himself. Can he give up being Batman for a normal life with someone he loves? Alfred is the one who ultimately forces Bruce to confront the situation. I think it was a great scene. If you watch Keaton in the scene he looks to be very angry and even delivers his lines in a somewhat aggressive manner. He knows that his mission is his one true path even if it means giving up everything he wants.
This was always my assesment as well. Excellently put.
Every scene with Alfred confronting Bruce's problems is excellent.
My favourite line is "I have no wish to spend my few remaining years grieving for the loss of old friends....or their sons."
For me, that is the heart of the movie.
I just watched Siskel and Eberts review for Batman. Eberts views on this film I totally disagree with - he missed the whole point of Batman 89 completley and was so out of touch with it. I dont know how he ever became a movie critic. He seemed to have a total downer on Burton from the go (even going on to say Forever was better than Returns and Batman Begins was the first Batman film to get it 'totally right'!)
But back to my point, and the thread, Ebert says to Siskel "can you remember Vicki's reaction in the Batcave when she finds out he is Batman? - Exactly! There wasn't one."
He was so wrong. Vale didn't find out he was Batman when she was let into the cave. The penny dropped when she seen the newspaper clipping of the Wayne murders and Knox says "What do you suppose something like this does to a kid?"
I think the 'Bruce and Vicki in the Batcave' is a great scene. At first I always thought 'why did Alfred let her in!?' But I think it works, and the acting is great. And so is Elfmans music in the background, fits the atmosphere of the scene well. Its great that the cave is the place where batman brought her earlier in the film- a place where he hadn't brought any being before. And here she was again, only looking at Bruce Wayne, a human being - not a super human or Bat-man - talking out the truth. Its almost like a follow up to the first time they are in the cave together only this time she's not afraid to ask the questions. Its kind of like a sequel to that first confrontation in the cave between Vicki and Batman. lol
All in all its a small scene that is tying up a few things before the big action and third act starts. Its not that important really, but I cant imagine it set anywhere else now, because it wouldnt work for me (Imagine it happening in the kitchen or Vales appartment!)
And as for Ebert, the guy didnt know what he was talking about! Batman and Returns were very successful movies! He got it so wrong. I think he was expecting Superman and what he got he couldnt comprehend.
Sorry if I rambled on there but thanks for reading!
Ps Shadowbat I agree with you there, I never thought about it like that before, because Alfred didnt want Bruce to go after the Joker in the final part of the film.
I think the first time she suspects that Bruce is Batman is after he rescued her from the Joker and they are driving through the woods to the Batcave. She's trying to study his eyes and mouth until he shines a light in her face. She suspected he was him but obviously didn't know. That's what makes it a great psychological movie, which Ebert didn't get.
Quote from: Joker81 on Tue, 7 Oct 2008, 19:12
I just watched Siskel and Eberts review for Batman. Eberts views on this film I totally disagree with - he missed the whole point of Batman 89 completley and was so out of touch with it. I dont know how he ever became a movie critic. He seemed to have a total downer on Burton from the go (even going on to say Forever was better than Returns and Batman Begins was the first Batman film to get it 'totally right'!)
But back to my point, and the thread, Ebert says to Siskel "can you remember Vicki's reaction in the Batcave when she finds out he is Batman? - Exactly! There wasn't one."
He was so wrong. Vale didn't find out he was Batman when she was let into the cave. The penny dropped when she seen the newspaper clipping of the Wayne murders and Knox says "What do you suppose something like this does to a kid?"
I think the 'Bruce and Vicki in the Batcave' is a great scene. At first I always thought 'why did Alfred let her in!?' But I think it works, and the acting is great. And so is Elfmans music in the background, fits the atmosphere of the scene well. Its great that the cave is the place where batman brought her earlier in the film- a place where he hadn't brought any being before. And here she was again, only looking at Bruce Wayne, a human being - not a super human or Bat-man - talking out the truth. Its almost like a follow up to the first time they are in the cave together only this time she's not afraid to ask the questions. Its kind of like a sequel to that first confrontation in the cave between Vicki and Batman. lol
All in all its a small scene that is tying up a few things before the big action and third act starts. Its not that important really, but I cant imagine it set anywhere else now, because it wouldnt work for me (Imagine it happening in the kitchen or Vales appartment!)
And as for Ebert, the guy didnt know what he was talking about! Batman and Returns were very successful movies! He got it so wrong. I think he was expecting Superman and what he got he couldnt comprehend.
Sorry if I rambled on there but thanks for reading!
Ps Shadowbat I agree with you there, I never thought about it like that before, because Alfred didnt want Bruce to go after the Joker in the final part of the film.
All he did was speak his own opinion on the two films, it dosent mean that he dosent know what he's talking about, just because he dosent like two films that you love and can understand because you've probably watched them a hundred times and disected the hell out of them. Theres alot of plot holes and bad things about Burtons bat-films that just dont work well, just as there are with the rest of the bat-films, or superhero films in general. It must be the reason that he's not a fanboy, and thats why he disliked them. lol give me a break!
To tell you the truth, I didn't really care about Vicki going in there. It seemed fairly natural. Now, I am a bit more sceptical, but am not that overly worried about it all.
Quote from: DarkVengeance on Thu, 9 Oct 2008, 23:23
seriously this is a forum to celebrate Burtons bat-films, but that dosent mean bashing Nolans amazing bat-films is necessary, you just seem really sour and one-sided about them, do you even read comics or graphic novels??
Right on, brother.
Keep it on topic.
sorry shadow some people just need a little guidance once in a while!
Quote from: DarkVengeance on Thu, 9 Oct 2008, 23:23
seriously this is a forum to celebrate Burtons bat-films, but that dosent mean bashing Nolans amazing bat-films is necessary
Right but then again it's not a place for people to spred hypocrisy claiming to love one movie and and then bash it and it fan's to say a different one is better and then claim to not be one sided thenself after.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 9 Oct 2008, 10:06
To tell you the truth, I didn't really care about Vicki going in there. It seemed fairly natural. Now, I am a bit more sceptical, but am not that overly worried about it all.
Same i never really thought much of it till it was talked about. Thanks now it's gonna drive me nutz everytime i watch the movie.
Bashing something and stating my initial problems with something are two different things. I never once have bashed anything at all, I guess some people just like to sit and pretend things are perfect when theyre not, I dont let things go like that, with every film I like, Im just that way and the batman films are my favorite off all time.
When Batman turned on that light to temporarily blind Vicki, was it so she would stop analyzing his face or was it to make sure that she didn't see the entrance to the Batcave?
Quote from: batass4880 on Tue, 18 Nov 2008, 23:13
When Batman turned on that light to temporarily blind Vicki, was it so she would stop analyzing his face or was it to make sure that she didn't see the entrance to the Batcave?
She Recognized him for a moment.
Vicki Vale in the Batcave didn't bother me much at all, I kinda liked it in a way, and especially the scene that followed! Know the one I mean? ;)
I also agree that when she's in the Batmobile trying to get a close look at batman/Bruce was pretty neat too, and when he notices and shines the light to stop her. All these little elements make the film what it is and are important in my opinion.
I liked the part where Batman lifts his cape up & the screen turns black, with bats flying up the screen.
Agreed, brilliant moment. Just the right way to end the batcave scene, plus I find Batman lifting his cape (like he does in the opening scene) gives him a real animal quality.
What I've always wanted to know is what did Batman do to make Vicki fall asleep? ???
Looked like strong BO - Bat Odour ;)
Well, Keaton did say that he felt hot in the suit. It makes perfect sense LOL! :D
Quote from: The Batman Returns on Sat, 17 Jan 2009, 03:30
What I've always wanted to know is what did Batman do to make Vicki fall asleep? ???
I believe in the comic adaptation he used a small capsule of gas to knock her out.
Alfred letting Vale in the Batcave never bothered me. I never knew it was such a problem until I read it up on the internet a few years back. I like that it was referenced in
Returns, though. "Oh hi, Vic, come on in."
About Batman turning on the light to stop Vale from studying his face in the Batmobile . . . interestingly I didn't pick up on that until I re-watched it a couple of nights ago. And I must've watched the film literally about 20 times.
I never had a problem with the scene, and also didn't know it was an issue until Sam made mention of it. I still don't have a problem with it, but to be honest I think they could have improved it by not having her walk in quite so soon after Bruce's discovery of his parents' murderer. I think they could extended that part for a moment before having her waltz in. Either way though, not an issue in my opinion and I also feel that it was a good way to show Alfred putting sort of a last ditch, desperation effort.