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Monarch Theatre => Schumacher's Bat => Batman Forever (1995) => Topic started by: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 6 Jan 2015, 12:46

Title: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 6 Jan 2015, 12:46
While watching the fan edit cut of Forever a couple of months ago, I realized I had forgotten how the film continued something that was introduced in B89: Bruce Wayne's repressed memories.

As everyone knows, Bruce hadn't recognised that Joker was his parents' murderer till much later in the film. In Batman Forever, his repressed memories not only come back, but they seem to be worse than ever. He forgets a lot about the diary and the bat that inspired him in the cave, and he even blocks out his parents' deaths once he tried to settle down with Chase Meridian, until the trauma comes back to him shortly before Wayne Manor was attacked. It's kind of odd that Bruce represses a lot of memories. But I suppose it goes to show how unstable the guy is, and that's why he believed that being Batman was a curse for him.

What does everyone else think? Do you think the repressed memory was a clever continuation that B89 introduced, or do you think it could've been fleshed out better?
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: Edd Grayson on Fri, 9 Jan 2015, 11:04
I liked Bruce repressing memories and I wish they had kept the scenes in Batman Forever that dwell more on this.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: The Dark Knight on Sun, 25 Jan 2015, 08:57
I've thought of about this, and I don't like the concept of repressed memories.

His past comes with a lot of emotional heartache, but I think Batman should be a relatively sane individual in terms of remembering his origins. It should be burned into his psyche. He knows why he started his crusade in the first place. He may not talk about it often, but it's important for him to feel that hurt.

The insanity comes from suiting up every night in a bat themed costume and vehicle.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 25 Jan 2015, 13:18
Normally I'd agree that Batman is driven by an incident that haunted him to the very core of his being, and yes, it's not something for him to forget so easily. It's a scar that will never heal, and it's a reminder why he'd want to make sure what happened to his family will never happen to anybody else.

But I won't lie: I am kinda drawn to the idea of what's presented in BF. Whether it's well executed or not is debatable, but I think the idea does tie with what was implied in B89. And besides, it does reflect Batman's deep psychological issues, as Burton subtly intended.

I don't particularly think Forever is a sequel to Burton's films, but if I did, I guess I'd argue that this repressed memory was a side effect of Batman's lethal ways. As Bruce himself admitted while trying to discourage Dick from taking revenge over Two-Face, his lust for revenge continued even after avenging his parents until he ended up forgetting why he wanted fight crime in the first place. That is until his final confrontation with Catwoman. Batman realized that he was just as disturbed as Catwoman, and needed to come back from his moral darkness, and later prevent Dick Grayson from entering the same path. Now, I'll admit that this could've been executed better. Hell, for all I know it may have been unintentional on the filmmakers' part. But I still appreciate the idea, and I'd definitely think it could've fulfilled its potential under a better director.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: JokerMeThis on Wed, 11 Mar 2015, 23:36
I like the idea fine but I always assumed they went the "repressed memories" route in this movie as a way to justify why we didn't get a whole lot of background information on Bruce in the first two movies, especially the second. The "in universe" explanation is that Bruce didn't remember a whole lot of what happened after his parents were murdered. In the Burton movies the only thing Bruce has to say about "why bats" is because "they're great survivors." And that's not necessarily a complaint or a criticism on my part because I like how Burton didn't explain too much about certain things and invited the audience to use their imaginations.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Thu, 5 Oct 2017, 10:07
Quote from: JokerMeThis on Wed, 11 Mar  2015, 23:36
I like the idea fine but I always assumed they went the "repressed memories" route in this movie as a way to justify why we didn't get a whole lot of background information on Bruce in the first two movies, especially the second. The "in universe" explanation is that Bruce didn't remember a whole lot of what happened after his parents were murdered. In the Burton movies the only thing Bruce has to say about "why bats" is because "they're great survivors." And that's not necessarily a complaint or a criticism on my part because I like how Burton didn't explain too much about certain things and invited the audience to use their imaginations.

Batman, whether people like to admit it or not, was psychologically disturbed throughout the Burton films, so you may justify these repressed memories as a continuation of his worsening mental health. Perhaps if you wanted to try and make more sense of it, Batman was further traumatised after facing and conquering the Joker because as he explained to Dick, revenge didn't put him at ease but only fueled his anger throughout BR. Put that together which the disappointment of losing Catwoman, the one woman he'd retire for, must have made him lose sight of what his mission was supposed to be about. I guess internalising all that anger and repressing it by not wanting to talk about had serious repercussions for his own mind.

In any case, once he overcame that mental obstacle and and guilt over his parents' tragedy, he moved on. But he chose to continue being Batman instead of needing to be, like he used to. And definitely became more virtuous and focused from there on in.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: Wayne49 on Thu, 5 Oct 2017, 14:23
I think Forever benefits from having Burton there as producer because I felt the movie, while changing tone, still wanted to remain fairly close to the established story line and characterizations established by Burton and Keaton. I definitely felt some lineage between this and the first films. It wasn't like it tried to become a soft reboot. Plus there are some nods in places as well such as when Chase refers to Batman's association with Catwoman.

So revisiting the repressed memories plot point certainly gave continuity and additional development for the Wayne character. If I were only reading these as books and never saw the films to associates actors to characters, I would have felt it was a trilogy of books. So Forever certainly paid homage and felt some responsibility to keep certain character portrayals moving forward. All of that is pretty well abandoned in B&R.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 6 Oct 2017, 11:10
Quote from: Wayne49 on Thu,  5 Oct  2017, 14:23
I think Forever benefits from having Burton there as producer because I felt the movie, while changing tone, still wanted to remain fairly close to the established story line and characterizations established by Burton and Keaton. I definitely felt some lineage between this and the first films. It wasn't like it tried to become a soft reboot. Plus there are some nods in places as well such as when Chase refers to Batman's association with Catwoman.

So revisiting the repressed memories plot point certainly gave continuity and additional development for the Wayne character. If I were only reading these as books and never saw the films to associates actors to characters, I would have felt it was a trilogy of books. So Forever certainly paid homage and felt some responsibility to keep certain character portrayals moving forward. All of that is pretty well abandoned in B&R.

The deleted scene with Bruce watching the news presenter chiding Batman to retire, and Alfred encouraging him to consider it while making a reference to avenging his parents deaths at the end of B89, definitely would've strengthened the continuity with the Burton films. As was Two-Face's reference of calling Batman a killer too.

One can say whatever they want about B&R, but I don't think there was any need to reference the Burton films. As I said before, by the end of BF, Bruce had overcome his angst and guilty decided to move on with his life choosing to be Batman, and stop making it into a burden. So I wouldn't necessarily say B&R abandoned the character portrayals.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: riddler on Fri, 6 Oct 2017, 14:19
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri,  6 Oct  2017, 11:10
Quote from: Wayne49 on Thu,  5 Oct  2017, 14:23
I think Forever benefits from having Burton there as producer because I felt the movie, while changing tone, still wanted to remain fairly close to the established story line and characterizations established by Burton and Keaton. I definitely felt some lineage between this and the first films. It wasn't like it tried to become a soft reboot. Plus there are some nods in places as well such as when Chase refers to Batman's association with Catwoman.

So revisiting the repressed memories plot point certainly gave continuity and additional development for the Wayne character. If I were only reading these as books and never saw the films to associates actors to characters, I would have felt it was a trilogy of books. So Forever certainly paid homage and felt some responsibility to keep certain character portrayals moving forward. All of that is pretty well abandoned in B&R.



One can say whatever they want about B&R, but I don't think there was any need to reference the Burton films. As I said before, by the end of BF, Bruce had overcome his angst and guilty decided to move on with his life choosing to be Batman, and stop making it into a burden. So I wouldn't necessarily say B&R abandoned the character portrayals.

Definitely if you include the deleted scenes as part of BF it makes perfect sense why Bruce doesn't act tortured in B+R. I did see a promotional interview with George Clooney before the film was released (and before he started trashing it) and he cited that they were moving away from the self-pitying Bruce over his parents death because of the passage of time for the character and that he can't mope for his entire life.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 8 Oct 2017, 01:22
Quote from: riddler on Fri,  6 Oct  2017, 14:19
Definitely if you include the deleted scenes as part of BF it makes perfect sense why Bruce doesn't act tortured in B+R. I did see a promotional interview with George Clooney before the film was released (and before he started trashing it) and he cited that they were moving away from the self-pitying Bruce over his parents death because of the passage of time for the character and that he can't mope for his entire life.

Yes. Going forward, it naturally made sense for Batman to be free of guilt and become not necessarily 'happy', but more at peace with himself. That's the difference.

Of course, I bet a lot of people were turned off by this characterisation not only because they didn't like the final product, but Schumacher's promotion of the film gave them the impression he didn't understand the character. Which is perhaps why lots of people clinged onto the idea that Batman should always be dark.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: riddler on Sun, 8 Oct 2017, 02:24
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun,  8 Oct  2017, 01:22
Quote from: riddler on Fri,  6 Oct  2017, 14:19
Definitely if you include the deleted scenes as part of BF it makes perfect sense why Bruce doesn't act tortured in B+R. I did see a promotional interview with George Clooney before the film was released (and before he started trashing it) and he cited that they were moving away from the self-pitying Bruce over his parents death because of the passage of time for the character and that he can't mope for his entire life.

Yes. Going forward, it naturally made sense for Batman to be free of guilt and become not necessarily 'happy', but more at peace with himself. That's the difference.

Of course, I bet a lot of people were turned off by this characterisation not only because they didn't like the final product, but Schumacher's promotion of the film gave them the impression he didn't understand the character. Which is perhaps why lots of people clinged onto the idea that Batman should always be dark.

Notice how Bruce's trust issues improve with each film
First he trusts letting Vicki Vale in on his life
then he trusts Selina to share his life
then he trusts Chase enough to share his secret
then he trusts Dick enough to be his partner

It is about his character progressing. It would have been redundant having him mourn his parents death especially after Dick went through the same thing. It should be noted too that this is the only film in the series where his parents death doesn't become an issue; in the first film he was avenging them, in the second, he saw parallels with his life in Oswald searching for his parents, the third film Dick witnesses his family get killed. Nothing pops up in the fourth film to remind him about his parents. It just didn't have a place in the fourth film no matter anyones opinion on the subject.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 8 Oct 2017, 08:08
Quote from: riddler on Sun,  8 Oct  2017, 02:24
Notice how Bruce's trust issues improve with each film
First he trusts letting Vicki Vale in on his life
then he trusts Selina to share his life
then he trusts Chase enough to share his secret
then he trusts Dick enough to be his partner

It is about his character progressing. It would have been redundant having him mourn his parents death especially after Dick went through the same thing. It should be noted too that this is the only film in the series where his parents death doesn't become an issue; in the first film he was avenging them, in the second, he saw parallels with his life in Oswald searching for his parents, the third film Dick witnesses his family get killed. Nothing pops up in the fourth film to remind him about his parents. It just didn't have a place in the fourth film no matter anyones opinion on the subject.

With Vicki Vale, Alfred kept encouraging Bruce to start confiding in her about his life. Bruce struggled to do so, but if you look at it from the prospective across all three films, it was a step in the right direction for him mentally. And Alfred was definitely a positive influence for that.

In fact, if I were to apply further interpretative analysis, there's evidence indicating Alfred wanted Bruce to stop his crusade as Batman. While Bruce was reading the police report about his parents' murders in the Batcave in B89, Alfred told him that he had no desire to spend the last remaining years of his life grieving for old friends or their sons, as he locks the Batsuit inside a safe. I'll take a guess and say Alfred knew that Bruce's need to be Batman was a result of his inability to cope with his family's tragedy, and he hoped a romantic companion can help fill that void. Alfred locking the suit up might be a visual clue to back up his wish that Bruce would move on.

If we take that deleted scene with the news telecast and the conversation between Bruce and Alfred in BF as canon, then it totally supports this theory. Bruce was beginning to believe that maybe Batman was more of a burden than it needed to be, and wondered if it would be possible to retire. Alfred encouraged him to consider giving it a try, and once again, banked on love (this time with Chase Meridian) as a possibility to make his life fulfilling. The only negative with this scene is Bruce saying he had never felt in love before. I'm not a huge fan of that line because if that were true, it conflicts his relationships with Vicki and Selina and render them as shallow.

Of course, Alfred was left with no choice but to help Bruce overcome his amnesia during the red book deleted scene. And once Bruce had ended his personal conflict for good, he was able to move forward with a clearer mindset, but still chooses to be Batman. He trusted Chase to keep his identity a secret and both bid farewell to each other. Alfred seemed happy, but in the deleted scene with Chase in the car, he has conceded that Bruce will never give up as Batman. In the end, Bruce was able to forego a much brighter path, but not the one that Alfred would've preferred for him.

Just like they did with BvS, WB really screwed BF by deleting those scenes from the final cut. Granted, the script still needed polish and it doesn't resolve some of the creative issues. But in my opinion, those scenes were integral to the plot.
Title: Re: Batman's repressed memories
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 9 May 2020, 11:50
As I mentioned in the BvS sub-forum, I found this academic essay that assesses Batman's psychiatric well being, and argued he shows symptoms of PTSD in various media.

https://pdfslide.net/documents/holy-ptsd-batman-an-analysis-of-the-psychiatric-symptoms-of-bruce.html

And judging by the criteria as described by that essay, it appears Batman's repressed memories in BF may have been a sign of PTSD.

Quote
The C criteria for PTSD read as follows: "persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness (not present before the trauma), as indicated by three (or more) of the following: 1) Efforts to avoid thoughts, feelings, or conversations associated with the trauma; 2) Efforts to avoid activities, places, or people that arouse recollections of the trauma; 3) Inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma; 4) Markedly diminished interest or participation in significant activities; 5) Feeling of detachment or estrangement from others; 6) Restricted range of affect (e.g., unable to have loving feelings); and 7) Sense of a foreshortened future."

Quote
Evidence that Bruce Wayne meets criteria for Symptom 3—inability to recall an important aspect of the trauma—is provided in the movie Batman Forever. Wayne says "I don't remember a lot of what happened; what I do, comes to me in my dreams, flashes. There's a new element now though." He goes on to describe events immediately after his parents' wake, which he had previously been unable to remember (1).

From what I read about "Sympton 3 - inablity recall an important aspect of trauma", it appears to be a hot debate among psychiatrists and clinical theorists. According to this other journal article on page 819, some theorists argue that while the human mind doesn't work perfectly like a video tape recorder, they insist a trauma survivor's inability to recall certain aspects of an incident is because their attention was distracted by something too threatening and dangerous. For example, somebody robbed at gun point could be too frightened by the weapon itself, and were so afraid for their own lives to the point they couldn't see the face of the mugger. In clinical terms, this appears to be described as "incomplete encoding" rather than traumatic amnesia. I guess if we were to compare some Batman comics in that context, Bruce was too horrified by the sight of the gun that took his parents' lives to the point he never really saw the killer's face. His aversion and contempt for guns became encoded into his psyche.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/070674370505001302