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Here's a fun feature from 'Empire Magazine': http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-best-order-watch-movies/ (http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/star-wars-best-order-watch-movies/)

I've always wondered how I will introduce my young nephew (and my own hypothetical children) to the Star Wars films, now we have the prequels and the current run of Episodes VIII to IX.

Surprisingly, there's no mention of Rogue One, although I appreciate that it's a spin-off rather than part of the overall saga.

But my personal preference has always been the so-called 'Ernst Rister Order': IV, V, I, II, III, VI, VII, VIII, IX.

I like building up to the Episode V reveal (i.e. "I am your father") and the cliff-hanger in which all the various characters are at their lowest point, and then going back in time to discover how Anakin became Vader, which in turn sets up his redemption come Episode VI, quite nicely.

What does everyone else think?  Do you prefer chronological order, or the order in which the films were released, or something else entirely?

Funnily enough, I just had this conversation with my brother about three weeks ago. We were trying to decide in what order we should present the saga to my nephew when he's old enough to watch them (he only just turned 3 last Tuesday, so it won't be for a few more years yet). We agreed the best way would be the classic OT–PT–NT production order that they came out in. However, I did read an interesting alternative viewing order suggested on a website last year. It's similar to the Ernst Rister order mentioned in that Empire article, except with one slight difference.

Basically this one proposes you start with Episodes I and II, then leap ahead to Episodes IV and V, then go back to Episode III, then Episodes VI and VII. This order does actually make a lot of sense for first time viewers.

Episode II ends with Anakin and Obi-Wan as friends. They're both Jedi Knights. Anakin has just gotten married, so the door is open to him having a son. It's the age of the Republic, before the dark times of the Empire. And the Clone Wars have just kicked off. This is consistent with everything Ben tells Luke in Episode IV.

We then skip from Episode II to Episode IV where the viewer learns a new character, Darth Vader, has killed Anakin. Furthermore Vader helped hunt down the Jedi, which in turn facilitated the rise of the Empire. But we still don't know who the Emperor really is or where the Empire came from.

The pieces start to fall into place in Episode V. Now we get the shocking plot twist than Anakin and Vader are one and the same. That's not true. That's impossible! How could this have happened? We have to go back to Episode III to find out. Episode III also establishes that Leia and Luke are siblings, which makes the plot twist in Episode VI feel less abrupt. Going from Episode III to Episode VI also works in term of referencing Padme. Luke and Leia's mother is never even mentioned in Episodes IV and V, but they do discuss her in Episode VI. This conversation has more resonance if you've just witnessed Padme's fate in Episode III.

If we view the films in this order, then we'll have only briefly seen the Emperor once in Episode V. This creates another shocking twist in Episode III where we learn that the friendly old man Palpatine from Episodes I and II is in fact the same grotesque tyrant we glimpsed in Episode V. Palpatine only really has a strong presence as the Emperor in Episodes III and VI, so it makes sense to watch these two back to back. There's also a lot of symmetry between Episodes III and VI with regards to Anakin and Luke both being drawn to the Dark Side. Episode III ends on a dark note, while Episode VI ends on a redemptive one.

Nowadays I generally prefer to watch the movies in chronological order (I-II-II-RO-IV-V-VI-VII). But if I was showing them to someone for the very first time, and that person didn't know that Anakin was Vader, then this nonlinear viewing order (I-II-IV-V-III-VI-VII) might be more effective. If you watch the films in this sequence, then Vader remains a frightening villain throughout Episodes IV and V. He doesn't start to become humanised until you see his tragic origin in Episode III.

From a narrative POV, the order you've suggested is appealing...the problem is, it means you have to start off with Episode I, and I fear that could turn-off any newbie to the Star Wars saga for life...

Then again, that particular film was made for kids, so perhaps our respective nephews (mine is two and will turn three this summer) will appreciate it more than those of us initially reared on Episodes IV to VI.

The chronological order is also appealing, even though it once again means one must start off with arguably the worst film in the entire series, as it quite seamlessly allows Rogue One to be incorporated between Episodes III and IV.  But the other problem, of course, is that the big 'I am your father' reveal is no longer quite the twist it was for us who first came to the movies in release date order.

So on balance, I'm still leaning towards the Ernst Rister order as far as introducing newbies to the saga goes, even if it means that one has to treat RO as an independent spin-off to be seen after at least the first six numbered instalments.

Time was I used to be a 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 6 man.

But realistically, the best way to go is probably the unaltered 4, 5 and 6 and the trailers for 1, 2 and 3.

That's my Star Wars canon... though I'd be willing to consider adding in selections from A Musical Journey to round the prequels out a bit more.

The prequels work best for me as suggestions and glimpses instead feature-length narratives. The prequel storyline as Lucas presented it really isn't friendly to making three films. So why bother? Why not just hit the high points of each movie and skip most of that dialogue altogether?

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Thu, 13 Apr  2017, 22:22From a narrative POV, the order you've suggested is appealing...the problem is, it means you have to start off with Episode I, and I fear that could turn-off any newbie to the Star Wars saga for life...

That's a point. But the upside to that viewing order would be the films generally improving as you go along. Someone might watch Episodes I and II and wonder what all the fuss is about, then become intrigued by the darker plot developments in Episode III, and finally have their mind blown by the OT.

Or they might just throw in the towel after seeing Jar Jar...

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Thu, 13 Apr  2017, 22:22Then again, that particular film was made for kids, so perhaps our respective nephews (mine is two and will turn three this summer) will appreciate it more than those of us initially reared on Episodes IV to VI.

I do wonder if a child watching the PT for the first time would be bothered by the same problems that irritate us older fans who saw the OT first. Might a child seeing Phantom Menace for the first time even find Jar Jar funny? Might they prefer the flashy overchoreographed duels of the PT to the more grounded fight scenes from the OT?

As uncles, it's our responsibility to make sure our nephews aren't blindsided by the superficial appeal of the PT to the extent that they fail to appreciate the more substantial narrative value of the OT. If they grow up hating Jar Jar and worshiping Vader, then we'll know we've done right by them.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri, 14 Apr  2017, 07:37But realistically, the best way to go is probably the unaltered 4, 5 and 6 and the trailers for 1, 2 and 3.

If only they'd release the unaltered versions in HD with the correct screen ratio. I've got a sneaking suspicion Lucas may have inserted a clause into the contract when he sold the rights to Disney, prohibiting them from ever releasing HD copies of the unaltered OT. I honestly wouldn't put it past him.

On the subject of viewing order, would anyone include the 2008 Clone Wars animated film in their marathon? I was one of the few people who actually bothered to see that on the cinema when it first came out. It was a theatrically-released entry in the franchise, it holds a similar spinoff status as Rogue One, and it is still technically canon. Would you bother including it? Or should the spinoffs be assembled into a separate viewing order for when fans have completed the main saga? And if so, should the now-apocryphal Ewok movies be included?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 14 Apr  2017, 22:42If only they'd release the unaltered versions in HD with the correct screen ratio. I've got a sneaking suspicion Lucas may have inserted a clause into the contract when he sold the rights to Disney, prohibiting them from ever releasing HD copies of the unaltered OT. I honestly wouldn't put it past him.

Nor would I. But if he's selling his property to Disney, I don't know how forbidding them from selling things which will become their property could possibly be enforceable. Maybe it is. I'm no lawyer. But I can't see how that's possible.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 14 Apr  2017, 22:42On the subject of viewing order, would anyone include the 2008 Clone Wars animated film in their marathon? I was one of the few people who actually bothered to see that on the cinema when it first came out. It was a theatrically-released entry in the franchise, it holds a similar spinoff status as Rogue One, and it is still technically canon. Would you bother including it? Or should the spinoffs be assembled into a separate viewing order for when fans have completed the main saga? And if so, should the now-apocryphal Ewok movies be included?

I still haven't seen the 2008 Clone Wars film (it's interesting that despite being SW related, it did very poorly at the box-office).  Is it worth seeing?

As for the Ewok films, if we're going to include them, we might as well include The Star Wars Holiday Special, right? ;)  And how about the "Ewoks" and "Droids" animated series?  That said, I do have some fun, no doubt nostalgia-tinged, memories of Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 17 Apr  2017, 00:03I still haven't seen the 2008 Clone Wars film (it's interesting that despite being SW related, it did very poorly at the box-office).  Is it worth seeing?

Eh, not really. It was edited together from the first few episodes of the TV series, and the welding lines are painfully obvious. The whole thing is rigidly episodic, disjointed and lacking in clear dramatic flow. One thing I disliked about the PT was how the Jedi were overpowered to an extent that frequently undermined the threat posed by the villains. The Clone Wars movie has this exact same problem. You never feel like the heroes are in any real jeopardy (with the notable exception of the finale), so most of the action scenes – while pretty to look at – aren't very suspenseful or dramatically engaging.

The film introduces several new characters that are important to the TV show, including Ahsoka Tano and Ziro the Hutt. But none of these characters has a complete character arc. Rather they have the beginning of an arc, which is then continued in the TV series. In effect, the movie is a pilot for the TV show rather than a self-contained theatrical experience. If you've seen the TV series, you'll recall there were teething problems throughout the first season. All of those issues are present in the film. The tone follows the juvenile precedent established by Episodes I and II, with lots of light-hearted banter and slapstick battle droids. But I can't really fault it on that score, since it is meant to be aimed at kids.

Despite these flaws, The Clone Wars also has its good points. There's an inventive set piece involving a vertical battle on the side of a cliff, and the last fifteen or twenty minutes of the movie are reasonably absorbing and suspenseful. The animation is vibrant, there are lots of imaginative new visuals (it doesn't simply rehash the iconography from the other films the way the recent Star Wars movies have been accused of doing) and the voice cast is also solid. Several actors from the films reprise their roles, including Anthony Daniels, Samuel L. Jackson, Christopher Lee and Matthew Wood. Being a big fan of Lee, I was particularly pleased to hear him play Dooku again. Darth Tyrannus is given a meatier role in The Clone Wars than he had in Episodes II or III, allowing Lee to explore the more devious Machiavellian side of the character that was only hinted at in the PT. He also has a duel with Anakin at the end of the movie which serves as an interesting '2nd round' to their battles in Episodes II and III.

I definitely wouldn't recommend The Clone Wars to someone who wasn't a Star Wars fan. Prequel aficionados will probably get the most out of it (FWIW I'm definitely an OT fan, but I'm still very fond of Revenge of the Sith). I didn't like it myself when I first saw it on the big screen, though I subsequently read Karen Traviss' novelisation and that made me appreciate the film more when I watched it on DVD. But if you have to read the novelisation in order to enjoy the film, then how good a movie was it to begin with?

For Star Wars fans, I'd rate The Clone Wars a 4/10 at best. For everyone else, it's more like a 3/10. It's still better than The Holiday Special though. And the TV series that followed it was vastly superior.

Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 17 Apr  2017, 00:03As for the Ewok films, if we're going to include them, we might as well include The Star Wars Holiday Special, right? ;)  And how about the "Ewoks" and "Droids" animated series?  That said, I do have some fun, no doubt nostalgia-tinged, memories of Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure.

Ugh. The Holiday Special. I would describe that film as unwatchable... except I've watched it right the way through on two separate occasions. I've seen the Ewok films quite a few times. I don't think either of them is very good, but they have an innocent charm that's somewhat endearing. I prefer The Battle for Endor over Caravan of Courage, but they're both fun in their own way.

I have very vague memories of watching Droids back in the late eighties. I think I might even have watched it before I saw the live action films. I didn't see the Ewoks animated series until I was a teenager, and by then I was too old and cynical to get into it. But I do have a nostalgic soft spot for the Droids cartoon.

I guess the proper viewing order for spinoff feature films would be:

•   Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2008) – set between Episodes II and III
•   Rogue One: A Star Wars Story (2016) – set between Episodes III and IV
•   Star Wars Holiday Special (1978) – set between Episodes IV and V
•   Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure (1984) – set between Episodes V and VI
•   Ewoks: The Battle for Endor (1985) – set between Episodes V and VI

Of these films, only The Clone Wars and Rogue One are still canon. They're also the only two that were released theatrically.

I think it's interesting to see Anakin as a young kid. As a slave. It does make his journey more complete. And the fact Anakin becomes a slave again as an adult, encased in his suit and serving the Emperor, makes Vader more layered.

I think TPM has merit for simply being a rather enjoyable watch. Attack of the Clones is dull and in my opinion, the worst in the franchise. However, things really kick into gear with Revenge of the Sith. The closer we get to the Original Trilogy timeline the better everything gets. So I'm willing to go without TPM and AOTC if push comes to shove. My viewing order is:


Revenge of the Sith
Rogue One
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
The Force Awakens

I loved Rogue One and I think it gets better with each viewing. I like that they didn't cop out. All of the characters are killed and they become tragic, forgotten heroes. Rogue One makes A New Hope a better film as far as I am concerned. There's other reasons, but the big one is the Death Star's weak spot being a deliberate plot point and not a conveniently dumb goof by the Empire.

Chirrut Imwe is not a Jedi, but for me, he's a much better character than any Jedi we see in the prequel trilogy. His dialogue is golden. "Let them pass in peace." "All is as the Force wills it." And so on. He's wise, kicks ass in combat and is at peace with himself. The fact he's blind is what I really dig. The guy is in tune with the Force and the Force is all about spirituality. Sensing things. Acting from within and mastering your reflexes. He doesn't need eyes to see. He's not a Jedi, but isn't that what the religion of the Force is all about?

Favourites are the so-called Machette order (4-5-2-3-6), release order, and sometimes chronological by episode numbers.

IV must always be the first IMO for people who haven't been exposed to I-VI: it's the one where most SW concepts are introduced, and can also be enjoyed as a stand-alone adventure. It doesn't require knowledge from the rest of the movies, it ends without any sort of cliffhanger.

There's a lot of good material in the Clone Wars and Rebels animated series but since it may not be everyone's cup of tea (not a big fan of the animation style, personally), better refer to an episode guide or a few articles for seeking some great episodes involving characters from the films like Maul, Vader, Kenobi etc.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 20 Apr  2017, 00:16
I think TPM has merit for simply being a rather enjoyable watch. Attack of the Clones is dull and in my opinion, the worst in the franchise. However, things really kick into gear with Revenge of the Sith.

I rate the PT the same as you. Here are my thoughts on each of those films.


For all its faults, there's still a lot to admire about The Phantom Menace. It's by far the best looking of the PT, and that's mainly due to two technical factors: firstly it was shot on 35mm, so it has a textured look that's consistent with Episodes IV-VII and vastly superior to the digital photography in Episodes II and III; and secondly it made far more extensive use of practical effects, real sets and location work than the other two PT films.

Episode I also doesn't rely as heavily on rehashing old designs and iconography as some of the other films do. Many of the locations, alien creatures, vehicle and weapon designs in Phantom Menace are unique to that one film. Likewise it contains some imaginative set pieces that are distinct from the action scenes in the other movies (the submarine trip through the Naboo planet core, the Boonta Eve Podrace, the battle between the Gungans and the Trade Federation). Lucas invested sixteen years worth of imagination into The Phantom Menace and it shows. If anything, the movie suffers from having too many new ideas crammed into it. But in a film like this, I'd say it's better to have a surfeit of imagination than a drought. And I'll give Episode I credit for having more originality and imagination than either of the two most recent Star Wars movies. Though of course not all the original concepts were good (midi-chlorians).

On the downside, Episode I has far too many new characters. There isn't time to introduce or develop them all properly, and consequently even the major protagonists end up being sorely underwritten. Remember Sio Bibble, Ric Olié and Kitster? No? Well they all had speaking roles and appeared in multiple scenes. The fact you likely don't remember them is a testament to the film's inadequate approach to characterisation. The comic relief is also ill-judged, and in particular the use of Jar Jar Binks to dilute scenes that might otherwise have been dramatic. There's a lot of unnecessary fan service too, most of which is just plain silly (Anakin building Threepio). Overall, there isn't much human drama beneath the action and special effects. The only legitimately dramatic scenes are those between Anakin and his mother. That relationship works and the scene where they say goodbye to one another is genuinely touching. But aside from that, there's not much emotional content. But I don't hate The Phantom Menace. It's nowhere near the quality of the OT, but I don't think it's a terrible film on its own terms.


Attack of the Clones on the other hand is rubbish. I'm sorry, but it is. Whenever I rewatch the saga, I always find Episode II a real slog to get through. It's an FX-driven toy commercial with bad acting, terrible dialogue and horrific overuse of digital characters and environments to accomplish things that could easily have been rendered in live action.

But the worst thing about Episode II from a dramatic perspective is the love story. The entire emotional crux of the film revolves around this relationship, but it doesn't work on any level. It's badly written, badly acted and it doesn't make sense. We're told Anakin and Padme fell in love, but we don't see it happen for ourselves. Consequently the emotions they're expressing come across as inauthentic. The counterfeit drama they're trying to evoke isn't earned.

When precisely did Padme fall in love with Anakin? Was it when he was a preadolescent boy (which would be extremely disturbing) or was it when he was leering at her in such a way that made her feel "uncomfortable"? We're never shown how or why she falls in love with him. But all of a sudden we're told she is in love with him, because the plot needs her to be. And why does her career as a senator prohibit her from having a boyfriend? I get why Anakin is meant to remain unattached, but why is she? As with the rest of this storyline, the glib star-crossed angle just doesn't work. And if she's so reluctant to fall in love with Anakin, then why does she keep putting on sexy revealing dresses and luring him off to romantic locations where they can be alone together?

In the RedLetterMedia review, Mr. Plinkett made one simple suggestion that would have fixed this problem: instead of having Anakin pursue Padme, Padme should have pursued Anakin. Imagine if Anakin was depicted as emotionally withdrawn, desperately trying to adhere to his Jedi training and not get emotionally attached to Padme. Meanwhile Padme is pleasantly surprised when she sees what a dashing young man Anakin has matured into. She starts to feel attracted to him, and her feelings intensify after he saves her from an assassination attempt. Padme then requests the Jedi Council assign him as her protector and sets about trying to seduce him.

The only really good scene in Attack of the Clones is the one where Shmi dies. It's nicely shot, well acted and the emotions feel earned and authentic. This should have been the turning point in the story where Anakin's emotional detachment begins to fail. This is where his cold, stoic facade breaks for the first time and his passion takes over. Then the scene with him and Padme back at the farm would have carried far more weight. That should've been the first time he revealed his vulnerable side. It should also have been the first time they kissed instead of the cheesy scene by the lake. In effect, Anakin would have turned to Padme as a sort of surrogate mother after losing Shmi. Giving Padme the more active role in the relationship would've leant her character a darker seductive edge and made her more interesting. Having her be responsible for Anakin breaking from Jedi doctrine would also have made her culpable in his eventual fall to the Dark Side, and that would have added a tragic layer of guilt to her character in Episode III. I believe this could have worked.

But instead we got Anakin's euphemisms about sand...


Revenge of the Sith has many of the same technical problems as Episode II – overuse of CGI, digital photography, overdone action scenes, some dodgy acting and dialogue, one or two plot points that don't make sense – but overall, I really like it. Maybe it's nostalgia talking, but I think Episode III works where it counts. It makes the viewer feel something, and not just the frustration they felt watching Episodes I and II. The tragedy arouses genuine pathos. Episode III also depicts the greatest moments of peripeteia in the entire saga. It takes us from the relative peace of the Republic to the tyranny of the Empire; we see the ascent of Palpatine and the genocide of the Jedi; we witness Anakin go from heroic knight to Dark Lord of the Sith in one of the most drastic character arcs of the franchise.

Some say his transition to Sith is too abrupt, and there's an argument to be made for that. But for me, it works. The Dark Side is meant to be a seductive fast track to forbidden power, and I interpret the velocity of Anakin's immersion in darkness as symbolic of his desperation to save Padme. He didn't suddenly turn evil after Mace Windu's death. I believe the monstrous quest Anakin undertook following that scene was every bit as abhorrent to his nature as it would have been twenty-four hours earlier, but he forced himself to walk that path anyway in the hopes of cultivating enough Dark Side power to save his wife. Is it rushed? Maybe. But like I say, for me it works.

There are some legitimately good scenes in Revenge of the Sith. Most notably the opera scene and the Order 66 montage. The quality of acting and writing, while still wobbly in places, is generally improved over the standard displayed in Episode II. And the soundtrack represents Williams' finest Star Wars score to date. So yes, I do like Revenge of the Sith, warts and all. In fact I might even like it more than Episodes VII and Rogue One, although I think they are objectively better films. My ranking of the movies tends to change each time I watch them. The only consistency is Episode II being the worst.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 20 Apr  2017, 00:16Chirrut Imwe is not a Jedi, but for me, he's a much better character than any Jedi we see in the prequel trilogy. His dialogue is golden. "Let them pass in peace." "All is as the Force wills it." And so on. He's wise, kicks ass in combat and is at peace with himself. The fact he's blind is what I really dig. The guy is in tune with the Force and the Force is all about spirituality. Sensing things. Acting from within and mastering your reflexes. He doesn't need eyes to see. He's not a Jedi, but isn't that what the religion of the Force is all about?

And he wasn't overpowered like the PT Jedi. His Force sensitivity didn't render him immune to danger, so there was always a real sense he could get hurt. Which ultimately – SPOILERS – he did.

On the subject of Force powers, I loved the way Vader's skills were depicted in Rogue One. I always admired Vader's fighting style in the OT. He didn't need to somersault through the air or perform lots of unnecessary pirouettes. Vader's fighting style was all about power, precision and control. I was worried they might use an overchoreographed prequel-style of swordplay in Rogue One, but thankfully they had him fight the way he did in Episodes V and VI. It felt pleasantly consistent with the OT.


Vader's the boss.

Quote from: Azrael on Fri, 21 Apr  2017, 12:29IV must always be the first IMO for people who haven't been exposed to I-VI: it's the one where most SW concepts are introduced, and can also be enjoyed as a stand-alone adventure. It doesn't require knowledge from the rest of the movies, it ends without any sort of cliffhanger.

I've always rated Episodes IV and V as the best, but I go back and forth over which is my personal favourite. Right now, it's Episode IV. The Empire Strikes Back is more polished, but I love the originality of the first film. It's the movie that introduced us to this amazing universe and it has a grand old Hollywood feel to it, with legendary screen actors (Alec Guinness and my all-time favourite thespian Peter Cushing), massive sets, a brilliant musical score and huge crowd scenes. It feels like a legitimate epic, not just another entry in an ongoing franchise. It's child-friendly without being condescending, and it's the only film in the saga which really functions as a standalone story. For some reason, it also feels like the most British of the Star Wars films. So right now, A New Hope is my favourite. And I agree that it's the best starting point for new fans.

There was a lot of excitement over the fact that AOTC and ROTS were shot digitally. But both were obsolete at most four or five years after they were released. I don't think 4k versions of those are even possible because the source is stuck at its original resolution and nothing can ever change that.

As to the rest... well, the idea of Padme pursuing Anakin has a lot of potential to it. She's been committed to "duty" and "obligation" her entire life. It makes sense that she would, ahem, go a little crazy in her early 20's. That's hardly a sci-fi concept. And I could picture Anakin, trying to put his old life behind him completely, resisting at first.

We're basically supposed to view the Jedi as warrior monks. And so it's a little hard to believe that a monk would so easily cast his religion aside just to chase some girl.

All in all, Padme as the aggressor in the relationship really opens up a lot of possibilities. The only weak point with that approach is that it risks exonerating the Jedi. For everything else I could say about the prequels, one thing Lucas was brave in doing was casting the Jedi Order in a pretty unfavorable light. Mace Windu and Yoda are both intentionally played as jerks. They're more concerned with staying in the Senate's good books than doing the right thing.

My view is that the Jedi Order failed Anakin rather than vice versa. I'm rather fond of the idea of the Jedi Code being fundamentally flawed and the Jedi Order as a bunch of out-of-touch blowhards who ignore Anakin and his problems except when it's convenient for them.

But still, I REALLY like the Padme as aggressor idea. So those may be worthy sacrifices.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 21 Apr  2017, 22:55
On the subject of Force powers, I loved the way Vader's skills were depicted in Rogue One. I always admired Vader's fighting style in the OT. He didn't need to somersault through the air or perform lots of unnecessary pirouettes. Vader's fighting style was all about power, precision and control. I was worried they might use an overchoreographed prequel-style of swordplay in Rogue One, but thankfully they had him fight the way he did in Episodes V and VI. It felt pleasantly consistent with the OT.

Totally. Vader is amazing and so much more complex than he is ever given credit for. By the time he realizes Palpatine tricked him, what choice does he really have other than fully embracing this new way of life? He's basically a tormented and depressed slave. He betrayed his friends and killed a morgue full of Jedi. His only way forward is to become a powerful monster. That's all he has left. In his quest to save Padme he killed her. He became somebody Padme was disgusted and frightened by. Selfishness consumed his brain. It's only when he discovers Luke is his son that he finds true purpose again - but he's still clouded by the Vader persona. He's going to overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy with his child. The fact Vader wears a mask makes it all better to me. You can't read his expressions. But you know he's thinking under there. He has a lot of time to think.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Apr  2017, 00:06
For everything else I could say about the prequels, one thing Lucas was brave in doing was casting the Jedi Order in a pretty unfavorable light. Mace Windu and Yoda are both intentionally played as jerks. They're more concerned with staying in the Senate's good books than doing the right thing.

My view is that the Jedi Order failed Anakin rather than vice versa. I'm rather fond of the idea of the Jedi Code being fundamentally flawed and the Jedi Order as a bunch of out-of-touch blowhards who ignore Anakin and his problems except when it's convenient for them.

Which is ripe material for The Last Jedi and Episode IX. If Jedi Orders keep getting massacred by dark side users (Anakin and Ben Solo), something must be fundamentally wrong with the teachings. Something has got to change because this just can't keep happening. These people felt alienated and rejected the environment they were in. I think a reformation of some kind is definitely needed.

Anyone looking for a story about a schism in the Jedi Order should check out the Knights of the Old Republic videogames. They depict a turbulent period where the Mandalorians were sweeping across the galaxy terrorising star systems. This presented the Jedi with a moral dilemma – should they exercise their powers to intervene, or remain objective and avoid fighting. Looking back on it, the storyline has a lot of topical parallels with what's happening now with groups like ISIS. The Jedi Council decided not to interfere, but many Jedi decided to go and fight anyway. The KOTOR games take place in the aftermath of that schism.

More points on Vader.

I like the idea Vader's version of the fortress of solitude is on Mustarfar. The very place where he was created. He won't go back to Tattoine because that reflects his old life. He wants to forget that. He instead embraces the anger and pain of his new life to fuel his crusade. It's messed up but perfect for the character. I want to see more of this location and apparently we will. Could it be where Snoke completes Kylo Ren's training?

"Be careful not to choke on your aspirations, director."

I think this is a great line. It's very much in line with "apology accepted, Captain Needa".

Vader's entrance from the bacta tank is also spot on. We glimpse Vader at a moment of weakness, ala TESB with his mask off, but it's obscured in a way to maintain a sense of mystery. Vader's silhouette against the wall as he walks out of the mist is also great because it's THEATRICAL. This guy knows how to make a dramatic entrance. And Krennic is scared stiff.

The end of RO was a good blend for me. Sure, the plans get out because they have to. But Vader causes dread within the enemy just from his presence, and he kills everyone within his reach. He's a dark and scary thought and nobody wants to be left alone with him. In TESB, Vader doesn't catch the Rebels but the generator was destroyed. The Rebels fled.

I also think the Falcon flying away from Vader was a good compromise. Because if Vader arrived on the scene sooner, there's a good chance Han and the others would've been stopped before they boarded the ship. Sure, Vader didn't capture Luke at Cloud City, but he cut off his hand and did defeat him. Vader didn't want to kill Luke so that dictated his response. He tried to reason with Luke, just as Han did with Ben. Not turning Luke to the Dark Side ultimately was a victory because it set him free.

All villains fail. But Vader somehow never appears that the reason why the heroes escape is his fault, but due to incredible hero luck or deus ex machina resolutions. An example of this is the trench run. Vader was shooting down X-Wings. He closed in on Luke and said "I have you now". Then Han came out of nowhere. A TIE fighter clipped Vader and he was sent hurtling away into space.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 23 Apr  2017, 02:03
It's very much in line with "apology accepted, Captain Needa".

I've always maintained that's the single funniest line of dialogue in the entire saga. The only other one that comes close is Palpatine's line: "Oh, I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive." There's something intrinsically hilarious about Sith sarcasm.

Also, Rogue One is consistent with A New Hope's Vader who loves a coverup.

A New Hope:
"Send a distress signal and then inform the Senate all aboard were killed."

Rogue One:
"There is no Death Star. The Senate has been informed that Jedha was destroyed in a mining disaster."

Small touches make all the difference.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 24 Apr  2017, 11:06
A New Hope:
"Send a distress signal and then inform the Senate all aboard were killed."

Rogue One:
"There is no Death Star. The Senate has been informed that Jedha was destroyed in a mining disaster."

There's a nice touch of black humour to those quotes. There's something very funny about the idea of the Empire going round massacring people and blowing up planets, then offering lame PR excuses to cover it up. Evil though this may sound, I really love the Empire. They're so much wittier, more stylish and badass than the Rebels.

Another thing I liked about Rogue One was the portrayal of the backstabbing and political infighting within the Empire itself. I read James Luceno's novels Tarkin and Catalyst last year, and they explore this subject in greater depth. By time we get to Episode IV, Vader and Tarkin are already established as the Emperor's favourites. They're the head boys, so to speak. But they had to fend off numerous competitors within the Empire to reach that status. There were plenty of other ambitious Imperials vying for Palpatine's favour, many of whom resented Vader and Tarkin and tried to eliminate them in the advancement of their own careers. There was a hint of this in A New Hope when Vader chokes out the officer who insults him. But in Rogue One the rivalry between Krennic and Tarkin was one of the most prominent and interesting subplots.

In Catalyst, Luceno portrays Krennic as an ambitious engineer who is desperately seeking the Emperor's approval. One of the biggest obstacles in his ascent through the ranks of the Empire is Tarkin. Krennic doesn't trust Tarkin and is wary of the latter's interest in his work. A rivalry develops between them that finally comes to a head in the movie. Tarkin not only commandeers the Death Star, but then uses it to annihilate Krennic and his entire complex on Scarif. It just illustrates what a ruthless and effective strategist Tarkin truly was, and that makes him seem all the more menacing in Episode IV.

You're right. The Empire is just more fun. They have the cool vehicles, the internal politics and the cool weapons. The Rebels being a ragtag bunch of misfits is their whole shtick, and don't get me wrong, I enjoy that too. They band together and through teamwork, they achieve the impossible because they have to. It's fight back or die.

I like how Rogue One added more meaning to the Death Star. Not just the deliberate weakness plot point, but the fact the Empire was mining an enormous amount of Kyber crystals to fuel the superlazer. I like that the lazer was used a number of times as well.

In Rogue One they were popping pimples.

The ancient city of Jedha? Gone.
The installation on Scariff? Gone.

In A New Hope they were taking off the entire head.

Alderaan? Completely destroyed.
Yavin? Moments from being completely destroyed.

Alderaan's destruction is still the first time the Empire demonstrated their weapon's full potential. The Senate was disbanded during the events of A New Hope, but they would have been completely shocked about it because they were kept in the dark with lies and misdirection. The Empire was now ready to truly stand on its own two feet and rule with fear and power.

I'll say this for the Empire: stuff worked under Palpatine.

For clarification, I should say that my canon is the original unaltered trilogy and not much else. So your opinions may differ from mine. But Palpatine basically brought peace to the galaxy far, far away... and it would've stayed that way if some warmongering liberals hadn't caused so much trouble.

The Jedi Order was basically extinct... and based on Obi-Wan and Yoda's behavior just in the original trilogy, it's hard to see that as a completely bad thing. Or even a mostly bad thing. And if anything, the prequels shine an even brighter light on what a bunch of self-interested jerks the Jedi all were. If anything, Obi-Wan is probably the best among them. But we've set the bar pretty low here.

All in all, I'd probably rather live under the Empire than under the United Federation of Planets.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 25 Apr  2017, 07:51
The Jedi Order was basically extinct... and based on Obi-Wan and Yoda's behavior just in the original trilogy, it's hard to see that as a completely bad thing. Or even a mostly bad thing. And if anything, the prequels shine an even brighter light on what a bunch of self-interested jerks the Jedi all were. If anything, Obi-Wan is probably the best among them. But we've set the bar pretty low here.

The later stages of the Jedi Order strongly resembles segments of the Western World right now. I see the same pig headed and complacent arrogance. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Honestly, if the Jedi didn't pick up on the warning signs, screw them. They were completely outmaneuvered by a superior strategic mind. I honestly have zero sympathy. Nothing lasts forever. Empires fall. It's your job to make sure it doesn't happen on your watch.

But back to Rogue One for a moment:

The consistency with ANH extends to Vader's scepticism of the Death Star. In ANH he warns them not to be too proud of the technological terror they constructed. In Rogue One, he says "its power to create problems has certainly been confirmed. A city destroyed. An Imperial facility openly attacked."

Vader clearly isn't that keen about it all, but orders are orders. He does Palpatine's bidding.

I also like how this ANH quote basically now refers to the battle of Scarif:

"Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battle station."

(https://68.media.tumblr.com/9e2b81eb34ab33fc8067172012727825/tumblr_olky65esLM1rlheeoo1_540.gif)

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 25 Apr  2017, 09:13The later stages of the Jedi Order strongly resembles segments of the Western World right now. I see the same pig headed and complacent arrogance. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Honestly, if the Jedi didn't pick up on the warning signs, screw them. They were completely outmaneuvered by a superior strategic mind. I honestly have zero sympathy. Nothing lasts forever. Empires fall. It's your job to make sure it doesn't happen on your watch.

They were all massacred, including children to fuel an empirical violent takeover based on lies. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

Quote from: Dagenspear on Tue, 18 Jul  2017, 16:29

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 25 Apr  2017, 09:13The later stages of the Jedi Order strongly resembles segments of the Western World right now. I see the same pig headed and complacent arrogance. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Honestly, if the Jedi didn't pick up on the warning signs, screw them. They were completely outmaneuvered by a superior strategic mind. I honestly have zero sympathy. Nothing lasts forever. Empires fall. It's your job to make sure it doesn't happen on your watch.

They were all massacred, including children to fuel an empirical violent takeover based on lies.

Oosh, been to an Ariana Grande concert lately?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 25 Apr  2017, 07:51
I'll say this for the Empire: stuff worked under Palpatine.

For clarification, I should say that my canon is the original unaltered trilogy and not much else. So your opinions may differ from mine.

I'm coming back to this. Right around the time of the theatrical release of Revenge Of The Sith, Lucasfilm released Star Wars- A Musical Journey which used major themes from all of the different movies and mixed them with relevant footage.

When it comes to the material from Episodes I-III, the end result is something which, arguably, tells the prequels stories in a more satisfying way than the prequel films themselves do.

These videos give the flavor of whatever character or subplot they explore but without a whole lot of dialogue or narrative. In retrospect, these mini-movies are probably the best way for older OT-era fans to absorb the prequels.

Not sure if A Musical Journey has very many fans around here but I've included a few samples to give an idea of what the DVD was all about.

Star Wars: A Musical Journey - A Hero Rises
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCcgB414uQQ

Star Wars: A Musical Journey - A Fateful Love
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-KpiIcqR-M

Star Wars: A Musical Journey - A Hero Falls
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VpCRzYqrTM

I enjoy the Musical Journey DVD. I got a copy with the Revenge of the Sith soundtrack when it first came out, but I haven't watched it in years. I never thought of using it in place of the Prequel Trilogy. I suppose that could work.

Of course my opinion of the Prequel Trilogy has improved somewhat since seeing the more recent Star Wars movies...

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 21 Apr  2017, 22:55
On the subject of Force powers, I loved the way Vader's skills were depicted in Rogue One. I always admired Vader's fighting style in the OT. He didn't need to somersault through the air or perform lots of unnecessary pirouettes. Vader's fighting style was all about power, precision and control. I was worried they might use an overchoreographed prequel-style of swordplay in Rogue One, but thankfully they had him fight the way he did in Episodes V and VI. It felt pleasantly consistent with the OT.

I liked the execution, but the scene itself felt like unnecessary fanservice. His style was consistent, but his motives weren't. Remember when A New Hope opened with Vader single-handedly killing all those Rebels? No, his troop of Stormtroopers did all the dirty work, while Vader only gave glimpses into what he was truly capable of up until he finally ignited his lightsaber in his duel against Ben.

Disney movies are fun "what if?" scenarios apart from the original Saga in my eyes. I really enjoyed Solo, though (even if a brand new Millennium Falcon created some continuity issues).

Quote from: Slash Man on Fri,  1 Feb  2019, 18:33
I liked the execution, but the scene itself felt like unnecessary fanservice. His style was consistent, but his motives weren't. Remember when A New Hope opened with Vader single-handedly killing all those Rebels? No, his troop of Stormtroopers did all the dirty work, while Vader only gave glimpses into what he was truly capable of up until he finally ignited his lightsaber in his duel against Ben.

This is true. I still like the choreography in this scene, but you're right – it is fan service and doesn't reflect the methodology of the character in the OT. The OT Vader only drew his blade for worthy adversaries (i.e. Jedi) and let his minions handle the rest. He could have massacred the Rebels aboard the Tantive IV in a similar manner, but he chose to let his goons do the dirty work for him. There's a similar situation in Tolkien's mythology where the Dark Lords Morgoth and Sauron very rarely engage in direct one-on-one combat. But whenever they do step onto the battlefield, it always feels epic.

The Vader in the recent Marvel comics often engages in combat with low-tier enemies, and I feel this somewhat diminishes his aura of formidability. I like the scene in Empire where he enters the Rebel base on Hoth. Everyone else is running around in a panic, but Vader just calmly strolls through the battlefield. He doesn't even bother igniting his lightsaber. He's so powerful he doesn't need to. When a situation arises where he has to kill someone, he simply uses the Force to choke them. That way when he does draw his blade you know the situation's serious.

My in-universe justification of the scene in Rogue One is that this may have been the first time Vader had left the bacta tank and donned his mechanical limbs after a prolonged period of regeneration. He may have sensed the challenges that lay ahead and decided to test himself to see how his physical rejuvenation was progressing; to see whether he 'still had it', so to speak. Of course this is just fan speculation on my part, and it doesn't alter the fact that the scene is pure fan service.

I don't mind the scene myself. I think everybody who grew up watching the trilogy always wanted to see Vader really cut loose on a large group of hapless fools.

Fan service? Maybe but it bothers me not one bit.

What does bother me (a little bit) is depicting bacta almost as a steroid or something. It complicates something that never needed to be complicated in the first place. I hear that the bacta thing was played up to give the lightsaber battle some kind of credibility. Vader didn't tear anybody up in that way in Star Wars '77 so there has to be a reason he did so in Rogue One... or at least that seems to be the thinking. So the explanation seems to be that bacta is sort of a performance-enhancing drug or something.

It's just idiotic, frankly. But apart from that nonsense, I adore that scene.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun,  3 Feb  2019, 15:21
The Vader in the recent Marvel comics often engages in combat with low-tier enemies, and I feel this somewhat diminishes his aura of formidability. I like the scene in Empire where he enters the Rebel base on Hoth. Everyone else is running around in a panic, but Vader just calmly strolls through the battlefield. He doesn't even bother igniting his lightsaber. He's so powerful he doesn't need to. When a situation arises where he has to kill someone, he simply uses the Force to choke them. That way when he does draw his blade you know the situation's serious.

This in itself is another issue - when supplemental materials show too much. Vader also fought Luke before The Empire Strikes Back according to these comics, which does a great disservice to him preparing to confront Vader for the first time in that film. Revenge of the Sith also presented a long-awaited rematch between Anakin and Dooku, but the Clone Wars series has them fighting like every other week. Same with Grievous and Obi-Wan.

To its credit, we see Vader's true power on display in the movies once again (since the original trilogy). The expanded universe constructed a narrative that Vader became much weaker and more pitiful after his injuries, and I think that contradicts how he was played up as one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy originally. Rogue One Vader demonstrates that he's just as strong as pre-Vader Anakin (if not stronger), and that it doesn't just boil down to acrobatics.