If Danny DeVito couldn't play the Penguin, who would you cast?

[The Laughing Fish]

I realise this may appear to be an unthinkable question to ask because Danny DeVito with his stature and method acting was perfect for this interpretation of the Penguin. But for a moment, can you think of anybody who could come close to an alternative if DeVito couldn't have played the role for some reason?

For me, as crazy as it might sound, the only idea I can think of is Phil Collins.



He studied acting growing up, and starred in some films and TV shows (i.e. Miami Vice) during his music career. I watched him in an Australian dark comedy called Frauds, where he played a psychotic insurance investigator terrorizing and blackmailing a couple, and had a habit of being a twisted prankster. If he exaggerates the laughter a little bit more, he could do a Penguin laugh. With that said, Collins' facial features would be better off playing a more traditional version of the character, with that cheeky grin and thin nose.

Of course, it's only natural for me to imagine Collins playing a piano rendition of "One More Night" to Catwoman, who still rejects his perverted advances. 

With this all being said, there's no replacing DeVito in this role. I just think it's fun trying to come up with suggestions who could play Oswald Cobblepot if you had to.

[Catwoman]

Just throwing out a name: Bob Hoskins.

It's hard to pick because like someone (I think the casting director) said, when it comes to short and nasty it's a pretty small list. Danny fit perfectly. I know anyone could pull off the nasty, but the height is an important part of the character (whichever version) because it plays to his inferiority complex that's part of making him so nasty. Now of course you could pick a taller actor and hunch them over but that would have been uncomfortable as hell even before you add the padding needed for his rotundness. Hello, back surgery.

Assuming Michelle played Selina, you need someone a bit shorter than 5'7 (Bob was only one inch shorter). Now of course if we're recasting every role, you get someone taller than that to play her and you can have a little more wiggle room for the Penguin.

[The Laughing Fish]

I can see Hoskins playing the rougher, Cockney Penguin from the Arkham games.

[The Joker]

Danny Devito as the Penguin in 1992, is like Jack Nisholson as the Joker in 1989; perfect casting.

Phil Collins is an interesting, out-of-the-box choice. Though, I wonder with this scenario, would Phil have also provided a single for the Batman Returns soundtrack? The music video could of had some interesting possibilities.

Bob Hoskins is a outstanding suggestion. No worries on his acting, nor his physicality. I think I remember reading that he took the role of Mario simply because of his son/daughter being a fan of the video games. The idea of Hoskins accepting the role of the Penguin for the sequel to Batman 1989 seems a pretty safe bet.

Being mindful of the 1991/1992 era of casting, as well as the Warners Studio mindset, I can see Joe Pesci being someone that A. Can play the role, and B. Has that 'star power' quality that could follow-up Nicholson's Joker as the main villain for a sequel film. Especially since we're talking about just a few years removed from Lethal Weapon 2, Goodfellas, & Home Alone. However, I can see Pesci being a better fit for the reasonably more traditional Penguin from the Sam Hamm draft where he's known as Mr. Boniface rather than deformed sewer dwelling Oswald Cobblepot that we ultimately got with the Tim Burton/Daniel Waters collaboration.

[The Laughing Fish]

Phil Collins is an interesting, out-of-the-box choice. Though, I wonder with this scenario, would Phil have also provided a single for the Batman Returns soundtrack? The music video could of had some interesting possibilities.

I reckon if Phil Collins had starred in a big budget blockbuster like BR, the studios would've taken advantage of his star billing as a musician and requested him to write a song for the movie. Collins and Genesis were still big in the early 90s, so there's no doubt in my mind he would've come up with something ominous and downbeat to fit a Batman movie. I can imagine him writing a song that could blend between In the Air Tonight and Tonight, Tonight, Tonight. But would he write an entire album of music specifically for the movie, like Prince did for B89? I can't imagine he would, because acting in a movie and writing an entire album at once is asking too much.

If there was a music video, I can imagine Collins doing some Penguin traits with a smirk and smoking a cigarette holder despite not necessarily be in costume. It would definitely fit his playful demeanor as a singer, as we saw in music videos like Don't Lose My Number.

Being mindful of the 1991/1992 era of casting, as well as the Warners Studio mindset, I can see Joe Pesci being someone that A. Can play the role, and B. Has that 'star power' quality that could follow-up Nicholson's Joker as the main villain for a sequel film. Especially since we're talking about just a few years removed from Lethal Weapon 2, Goodfellas, & Home Alone. However, I can see Pesci being a better fit for the reasonably more traditional Penguin from the Sam Hamm draft where he's known as Mr. Boniface rather than deformed sewer dwelling Oswald Cobblepot that we ultimately got with the Tim Burton/Daniel Waters collaboration.

I don't know where Sam Hamm came up with this Boniface character and this boring treasure hunt plot surrounding Wayne Manor, but yes, Joe Pesci might've been a good fit for that interpretation.

Speaking of which, there's no doubt in my mind Gary Frank modeled the Penguin's features after Pesci, when he drew the character in Batman: Earth One Vol .1.

[The Joker]

If there was a music video, I can imagine Collins doing some Penguin traits with a smirk and smoking a cigarette holder despite not necessarily be in costume. It would definitely fit his playful demeanor as a singer, as we saw in music videos like Don't Lose My Number.

Yeah either that/and/or Phil being surrounded by Penguins for certain shots during the music video. I can easily picture that as well.

I don't know where Sam Hamm came up with this Boniface character and this boring treasure hunt plot surrounding Wayne Manor, but yes, Joe Pesci might've been a good fit for that interpretation.

The treasure hunt plot seems like something of a rather basic Penguin plot from the '80's Batman comics. Or bronze age. Or silver age even. I can see why Burton found that uninspiring and one dimensional. I kinda wonder if Hamm had even read the Secret Origins issue that Niel Gaiman did with the Penguin's backstory? Perhaps Burton might have found that more interesting than what Hamm offered in his script since it's evident Burton had more interest in backstories for his villains...

Boniface was a alias Penguin used in his 1st appearance, years before he was given the name Oswald Cobblepot. I assume Hamm must have had access to reading the Penguin's 1st appearance and decided to use the Boniface name, but to completely disregard the Cobblepot name was a unusual move.

Speaking of which, there's no doubt in my mind Gary Frank modeled the Penguin's features after Pesci, when he drew the character in Batman: Earth One Vol .1.

You're right. That one completely slipped my mind.

[Silver Nemesis]

The treasure hunt plot seems like something of a rather basic Penguin plot from the '80's Batman comics. Or bronze age. Or silver age even. I can see why Burton found that uninspiring and one dimensional.

The raven statuettes were almost certainly inspired by the titular article in Dashiell Hammett's 1929 novel The Maltese Falcon and John Huston's 1941 film adaptation. The Penguin has stolen similar bird-shaped statues in a number of comics.

The idea of Catwoman and Penguin teaming up to steal statues shaped like animals was later used in an episode of The Batman (2004-08) animated series titled 'The Cat, the Bat and the Very Ugly' (season 2 episode 1). In the cartoon there were two statues – one shaped like a cat, the other like a bird – while in Hamm's treatment there are five shaped like ravens.

Many people dismiss the treasure-hunting storyline in Hamm's screenplay as something out of a Hardy Boys book or The Goonies. But if you read the actual script, it plays out more like a cross between The Maltese Falcon and The Godfather. Catwoman and Penguin systematically murder the heads of the Five Families of Gotham in order to steal their statuettes. Eventually the only surviving heir of the Five Families is Bruce Wayne, and he's spent the whole movie using his detective skills to try and figure out why the villains are doing this. Love it or hate it, this storyline presents a strong central plot that adds a cohesive narrative throughline to Hamm's script.

I kinda wonder if Hamm had even read the Secret Origins issue that Niel Gaiman did with the Penguin's backstory?

I'm pretty sure he did. There's a scene early in Hamm's script where Cobblepot's pet birds are killed by his cellmate T-Bone (who may or may not have been based on the character of the same name that tried to assassinate Bruce Wayne in Hamm's Batman: Blind Justice). It's similar to what Sharkey did to his birds in 'The Killing Peck'. In both stories the Penguin then takes revenge on the man responsible for killing his pets.

Boniface was a alias Penguin used in his 1st appearance, years before he was given the name Oswald Cobblepot. I assume Hamm must have had access to reading the Penguin's 1st appearance and decided to use the Boniface name, but to completely disregard the Cobblepot name was a unusual move.

Correct. Mr Boniface was the original name of the comic book Penguin when he debuted in 'One of the Most Perfect Frame-Ups' (Detective Comics Vol 1 #58, December 1941).

Hamm also adapted the plot about the Penguin framing Batman from this comic. That was one of several things from Hamm's story that trickled down into Waters' script. Waters claims to have disregarded all previous drafts of the Batman II script, but there are a number of elements in the finished film that clearly originated in Hamm's treatment.

•   The Christmas setting.

•   Batman first appears during a set piece where he takes down a gang of criminals using the various weapons built into the Batmobile.

•   Batman's cape glider.

•   A scene where Batman and Catwoman fight on a rooftop.

•   The Penguin sabotages a tree lighting ceremony by unleashing a flock of bats on the crowd of spectators. Batman watches this from a rooftop overlooking the scene, having been provoked into attending the ceremony by a villain. In Hamm's script the challenge comes from Catwoman, while in Waters' script it's issued by the Penguin.

•   There's a scene where Catwoman knocks Batman off a roof and keeps him dangling from her whip while she taunts him. But in Hamm's script Catwoman drops Batman in an attempt to kill him.

•   Following this scene, Batman deploys his cape glider with partial success and crash lands in the middle of a busy intersection. A crowd gathers round his unconscious form and attempt to remove his mask, prompting a jet of gas to shoot out of the emblem on his chest. He then regains consciousness, fights his way through the crowd and makes a run for it. There's an almost identical scene in Waters' script, but it was cut from the finished film.

•   A scene where Batman is pursued by police cars after being framed. In both Hamm's script and Waters' original script, Batman is aided in his escape from the cops by Robin.

I'm sure some other things carried over from Hamm's script, but these are the ones I recollect offhand.

As for the name Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot, that was created by writer Al Schwartz and first mentioned in the Batman: Sunday Classics strip 'Oswald Who?' (#119-123, 10th February-10th March 1946).

Prior to this story, the Golden Age Penguin was known as Mr Boniface.

[The Dark Knight]

I'm going to get four whole fried chickens and a coke, a comfy chair, and read the above post again.

Is there anybody else better than SN when it comes to comic/film referencing? I think not.

[Silver Nemesis]

[The Joker]

Yes indeed. The comics-to-screen knowledge is outstanding as always.