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Anyone who expected such consequences in a DC film that was tailored to meet mass audience appeal is kidding themselves. After the overblown backlash people raged for MOS and BvS, and how WB butchered JL in an attempt to satisfy current popular tastes, there was no way WB would dare show kids in danger in a Wonder Woman film that was made to be "fun".

Weren't kids shown to be have danger towards them in Justice League? And doesn't WW84 show a nuclear strike about hit with a kid standing in the middle of it?

But then again, who really knows what mainstream audiences want? They bitched about Batman and Superman killing villains, but never made a single peep when Diana did the same in her first solo outing. We heard of media narratives that the DCEU needs to brighten up to "catch up to the MCU", but WW84 doesn't appear to satisfy that many people, nor did Josstice League before. And the films that did well critically didn't do that great at the box office.

Why can't some have different tastes for different characters, in different contexts, that they may think are developed differently?

There's a desire to fill in the timeline, and usually I would be supportive of that. But not here. The original intention of WonderGal was this:

"A hundred years ago I walked away from mankind; from a century of horrors."

That statement is cut and dried, but it was deviated from because it's not 'heroic'. I am not interested in pure heroism. I am interested in the struggle people endure while they're on the path of the hero. The whole point of BvS and ZSJL is that Superman woke them all up with his sacrifice. Whether or not they wanted to emerge, the situation demanded it. Superman was not the first hero (that was Diana), but he was the most important. BvS is the true starting point for the DCEU. It's the modern day. It's the grand reveal of not just Wonder Woman, but all the other superpowered beings that followed her.

WW84 may have some decent aspects to it, but the basis for the movie is counterproductive in the context of an established shared universe. The BvS comment of walking away from mankind should have been left alone. What is 100 years for someone who barely ages? If the lack of heroism aspect was too much to swallow, they could've had Diana return to Themyscira during that time.

Why does struggling in the path of a hero have to mean giving up for a hundred years? It may not be a lot for her, but it can be for others. Why should I care about a character who doesn't care about humanity, because her boyfriend died and she doesn't like that humans do bad things, as if she has the right to judge us?

I think Superman waking them up with his sacrifice is dumb and nonsense. People die in acts of protection of others all the time. What's the difference between Superman doing it and anyone else doing it? Superman's not more important or special than other normal humans. Also, Diana jumped back into the fight, before Superman "died" in that movie. So, I don't think his sacrifice is a big wake up for her, if she's willing to help before that.

Maybe they could've, but none of the movies, Snyder's included, has had that written in them, as far as I think was presented on screen, so far.

If that is the mentality of Jenkins, I'd rather she be cut loose. Snyder has the right approach to the characters in the modern context, as Matt Reeves seem to.

Who says she should be cut loose and who decides who has the right approach?

Yes, that's correct. Gal Gadot even showed her gratitude on social media. As much as most people don't want to admit, Gadot owes her career to Snyder.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. I wouldn't say any actor particularly owes their success to a director who may have hired them based on their performance or whathaveyou. God blessed her with everything she's gotten, LORD willing. She'd also already had a growing role in the Fast & Furious movies by that point.

Snyder was credited for the story in WW2017 along with Jason Fuchs and Allan Heinberg, while Geoff Johns did some uncredited rewrites. Even if Snyder's input within the story was small, his casting of Gadot in the role was influential enough as it is.

The critics want to make Snyder their bogeyman at all costs and will slander him at every opportunity. You know how biased they are when they can't even credit him for his influence in the first WW film, let alone casting Gadot. But I'm not so concerned about them because they are a lost cause, and lots of people tend to see through their nonsense nowadays.

Lost cause? Why does someone disliking those movies, make them that? This isn't the Gospel. It's a dumb movie. Casting Gal Gadot can mean somethings, but that doesn't have to mean he's responsible for who the character is written as, as a whole, in the WW movie. And he can have influence on it, but, as far as I've read, he didn't write the script, but wrote the story, with other writers. I don't really pin Man Of Steel on Nolan for a similar credit. Why should I, or maybe others, do that for Snyder?

Patty Jenkins, what a letdown. As I understand the situation, casting Gadot was all Snyder's move and so was the WWI setting of the movie. Basically, Snyder all but giftwrapped a lead and a basic story for Jenkins to play with.

Her move was to eject him and everyone who helped her succeed when the time came for the sequel. The results are spelled out in that movie's critical and box office reception.

Snyder isn't the only one who worked on it. He doesn't have a script credit, but a story one. Other people were involved. Why should I see him casting Gadot as the end all be all of the movie? Why shouldn't I, or others, see it as a nice casting choice, that some may think, me included, happen to pay off with a different director, along with the story element?

Is that really what spells out the movie's box office reception? Why think that, with the situations, now? Wasn't there criticism of Snyder's movies as well? Why is it that a spell out for this?

Snyder and Jenkins appear to be very supportive and complimentary towards each other in public. But I find it hard to believe that Snyder showing off that picture was a coincidence, going by what Jenkins has been saying about her vision of Wonder Woman.

If what you're suggesting is what I think, I don't understand why you'd suggest it. To me, that doesn't sound like a positive light being shed on him by the suggestion, if it's what I think.

Yep. The fan reaction means way more, given the climate the film was released in. She had her vision and it sucked.

No swords in WW84, just the lasso. And swinging around stupidly all the time, encroaching on Spider-Man's turf. That's all I think of when I see it. Along with the Donner worship, get the funk out of here Patty. I'm done with you.

Wonder Woman as a warrior was the right direction, but she obviously wanted Lynda Carter fluff. I believe without doubt WB wanted a token woman helming WW no matter what. Wrong move. They should've hired someone else. I'd clash with her too.

"Women don't want to see that", as if she speaks for all women, and as if women are the only audience for the character. The real WonderGal will be seen in ZSJL, thank you very much, particularly in Steppenwolf's last moments.

If I were the studio and she spoke that way about me, I'd cut her loose yesterday. They're all meant to get together for a third movie after that? Let DisneyWars have her. Another 'the Force is female' blowhard who can denigrate another once loved franchise.

Who decides what's the real version and what's not, or what's wrong or not or who should've been hired or not? Who decides it's bad or not? I don't think it's bad, like that, anymore than what's been done before, writing construction wise. Why is Donner fanism worse than Snyder fanism?

What irks me is that the DCEU had an established creative direction and it got derailed because Geoff Johns (and others) didn't get their way. Snyder's films were profitable by any reasonable standard and the future was wide open.

Why is Snyder's creative vision the only one that should be adhered to? Why should only he get his way? Why can't Johns and Jenkins tell stories the way they want? Why should Snyder get carte blanche if those involved don't like his way of doing things or want to do things their way?

Ivy killed Woodrue, who was willing to perform illegal human experimentation, engage in human trafficking, commit murder, etc. In a sense, she started as an anti-hero and then just became a straight up villain.

She gave Woodrue what was coming to him tho, which is something.

If anything, Ivy's depiction in the film as an eco-terrorist is something that would never fly today.

When we first meet her, she wants to modify plants to fight back against humans.

Ayo hol up

Let me get this straight. Fans are championing the director's original vision, they want an artist to be able to tell the story the way they intended... and that makes them "toxic"? Really? That's where we are now?

I mean, there's stupid and then there's calling those fans "toxic". So retarded.

I may not agree entirely, but these are just movies.

If Forever came out today, this line - and the rest of film's tone - would've been met with applause. You know, because it's a contrast to the "dark and gritty" that a lot of people keep flip-flopping about.

Is there a lot of people flip flopping? Or do some think it fits one character more than another?

I've seen not much dislike for the fairly dark and gritty vibe of The Batman from the trailer.

[This is it for now. Please review and tell me what you think!]

The present day story of the season opens with Jim, sneaking into a clocktower to try and capture Man-Bat, not some version of Killer Croc. This goes uncsuccessfully, Man-Bat escaping, though he inadvertently stumbles upon Francine, who was being kept alive by Man-Bat bringing her fruit.

Jim's arc is mostly the same. Though we delve more into his backstory of why he came back to Gotham. In the war, he made a call that got some soldiers killed, but succeeded and he was hurt, so he was awarded with a medal and honorably discharged. He blamed himself for the loss of those soldiers and thought he could make up for it by coming to Gotham and trying to do the job and be the man his dad was. When he's effected by the red queen dust and trips out, he goes through this.

When he comes back to ask Barnes about coming back to the force, he tells him that he did kill Theo Galavan, explaining his reasoning at the time, but admitting that he was wrong and that it's ruined his life. Barnes tells him that he's already been charged and exonerated of that crime and can't be charged again for it. Barnes also tells Jim that he hates what Jim did, but he accepts him back onto the force due to his perception that Jim's come around and (he doesn't tell Jim this) his own declining state due to the tetch virus.

Barnes' story is mostly the same. Though the guy Barnes throws through the wall dies before hitting the car. Jim suspects Barnes based on the guy having Barnes' pocket square in his hand.

We establish that the Court aren't allowed to kill Bruce. Bruce figures this out, saying that if they could, not only would he have died with his parents, but Alfred's friend and those assassins would have gone for him too. Bruce tells them this. They tell him he's right, but threaten those he cares about. Bruce does, in a way, try to stay out of the court's way by having a normal life and in dating Selina, but finds himself compelled to dig into it more, after the clone thing and all that. This leads him to the Whisper Gang, as he essentially drags Selina into the situation. Selina helps Bruce, with info from the whisper gang, steal a highly protected Court Of Owls possession: A diamond.

Through this we reveal that Selina's mom is a member of the Whisper Gang when she helps them escape some talons and that's why she abandoned Selina. Selina and her mom connect. But her mom is killed by the talons and Selina's angry at the situation and Bruce and blames him for her getting to know and losing her. She pushes him away. The diamond remaining with Bruce. Bruce gives the diamond to Lucius to study. Him discovering that the diamond matches up with locations on the Gotham city map. It's eventually realized that they're locations of their facilities.

Though Jervis claims to have only gotten in town, he was an indian hill scientist, who had Alice put in Arkham so he could manipulate her and had his hypnosis tech implanted into his own brain.

Ivy experiments with remnants of Indian Hill to try and empower herself with them, getting help from a scientist Dr. Jason Woodrue whose fascinated with Strange's research and is trying to replicate it. Woodrue experiments on her with a chemical he's crafted to bond plant human DNA. He thinks it kills her and dumps her body, thinking it a failure, but she's alive and comes out of it enhanced. Though it's defective and she finds herself aging over the course of the season. She uses the Tetch virus to stop this process, leaving her stuck in her mid to late 20's at the end of the season.

Leslie Thompkins' arc is basically the same. Except we reveal in the last batch of episodes that when Mario was killed, his blood splattered on her and has been slightly effecting her, then beginning to consume her as the season concludes.

Same arcs for Butch, Tabitha and Barbara.

Penguin, very similarly to the actual season, wants to establish some form of legitimacy in the eyes of the people. Though now, we'll reveal that Isabella is a clone, crafted as a way to manipulate Nygma, by Strange, who escaped with the bus of indian hill experiments. After Nygma shoots Penguin, dumping him in the water, he's pulled out by the Court, who seeks to use him to control the crime in Gotham.

When Nygma turns himself over to get answers about whose been controlling Gotham, he sees this. This situation is where the court would reveal to Nygma the Isabella thing. Oswald and Ed still work together to escape and still want to destroy eachother, this building to the same place. Penguin acquiring help from more advanced villains, though now after he escapes the Court Of Owls, like Mr. Freeze and Ivy and such. And Nygma using the mobs. And Nygma being frozen at the end in the same way.

Here we'd reveal that Freeze thinks Nora died in the destruction of Indian Hill, then discovering that her cryo tube was missing from the rubble.

Selina struggles as she tries to have a life of some kind and connect more with people. Her relationship with Bruce is apart of that. This builds to her feeling angry and hurt at her mom's death. When clone Bruce tells her that what's happening, she lashes out at him in the same way and then realizes that he killed her mom, after he slips up about the diamond not being found on her body. The court wanting the diamond back is another reason why they're having clone Bruce take over Bruce's life. In anger at being rejected by Selina he still pushes her out the window. Selina's unconscious for couple episodes and is still awoken by Ivy. Selina still immediately goes after clone Bruce. Alfred at this point has realized who the clone Bruce is and is trying to manipulate the situation to find out where the real Bruce is. A curve is thrown into that when Selina tries to straight up kill him. When the clone escapes Alfred tries to acquire Selina's help in finding Bruce, but she rejects it, wanting to avoid dealing with Bruce disappearing, fearing him to be dead. At the end of the season she helps the GCPD use the diamond to find where the court of owls lairs are. Then taking the diamond, she goes after clone Bruce herself and fights him, cracking his skull with the diamond, leaving his body.

This all builds to her deciding that she's been hurt too much and doesn't want to feel that way anymore, she wants to be detached from that, still seeking help from Tabitha. But keeping the diamond as a memento of her mom.

Bruce has as a similar arc as in the season, but different. Bruce wants to and tries to have a relationship with Selina, but is drawn to discovering the root of the court. He tries to balance it out, but the death of Selina's mom causes a wedge in that. After this he puts his focus on seeking the answers behind the court, why his parents were killed, why they cloned him, why they left him alive. This leads him to being taken by the league of assassins. When offered the answers in exchange for access to his mind, Bruce caves. They brainwash him.

The answers behind the court are: For hundreds of years they've been controlled by the league of assassins and Ra's Al Ghul. The court has been trying to replicate the lazarus pit process so they wouldn't be under Ra's thumb. His explicit order was to not harm any of the Waynes. When Thomas sought to expose them, they had him killed, going through Strange's Indian Hill connections and a low level street assassin to make it look like a lowly robbery and avoid suspicion and punishment from Ra's. When Bruce began digging into Indian Hill himself, the court sought to clone a replacement to get rid of him without Ra's knowing and have someone who could be controlled amidst Ra's attachment to Bruce. The Order Of St. Dumas knew about Ra's seeking Bruce as his heir and sought to cut the head off the snake before it even had a chance to grow, in hopes of crippling the league of assassins and/or causing it to implode.

Alfred's arc is about him beginning to accept Bruce's mission.

There are dual A-plots running in the finale:

In the last 2 episodes Jim, infected by the Tetch virus, questions himself, whether he actually has Gotham's best interests or if he's only ever wanted an excuse to do what he wanted (Did he have to kill Mario to save Leslie? Knowing he could've found another way than killing Galavan). When Bullock tries to stop Jim, leading to the confrontation between them, Bullock tells Jim that he showed him the path to doing the right thing, that made him feel like a worthwhile human being again, finishing that making mistakes doesn't mean those mistakes define him. This does still lead to the same conclusion.

Instead of having Alfred simply captured by Ra's and Bruce made to stab him: Alfred challenges Ra's to a sword fight for Bruce. Ra's wins, after toying with Alfred, who doesn't do bad. The same happens, Bruce is made to stab Alfred, his brainwashing breaks, Bruce uses the waters of the pit to heal him. This leads to the same conclusion in the story. Though the situation plays more into the idea that Bruce thought getting answers would help him somehow, but all it did was hurt those he cared about and the city itself. He doesn't know what to do now, that he feels lost, which still leads to him deciding to be a vigilante at the end of the season.

This is it for now. Please review and tell me what you think!

Alfred starts to not try to stop Bruce in his mission.

Bruce becomes more ruthless over the season.

Jim has the same arc as in the season.

We reveal that Leslie Thompkins knew Bruce's dad and that he was a mentor for her when she was training to be a doctor and Leslie does start talking with Bruce to try and help him out emotionally, though he mostly stonewalls her.

Selina finds she starts to care more and more about those around her and struggles with her perceived weakness and her desire to detach in the face of loss and pain.

Bullock begins to get more attention for his heroic deeds and is unsure in how to do deal with it.

Ivy gets more frustrated at feeling looked down on by everyone.

Penguin, almost at first, feels the monotony of a simple victory, and after his mom is killed questions the point of being the king of gotham. His dad arc lasts about 3 episodes, not 2. His dad's dark secret being that he has intense rage issues, like Oswald, and when he was a young man killed someone in a fit of rage. Since then he's sought to avoid that by wanting his family to be respectable. After this, Penguin begins desire to make himself seem like a legitimate citizen to the public.

Have a slightly different set of villains in the breakout: Jerome, Barbara Kean, and lesser tier villains like Crazy Quilt or something. Sparce them out more over the first half of the season. Don't have Jerome die. Maybe he's the one gets put in a coma instead of Barbara Kean. Though the breakout is no longer controlled, but more manipulated. They never meet the one who broke them out, but are given intel through Tabitha, still a presence in this season.

Barbara Kean, in this version no longer an outright psycho who wants to punish Jim and Leslie, in her own mind, she's bloodthirsty for the lives of criminals, and seeks to hunt down some of those who escaped from Arkham with her, offering assistance to Jim in some ways, also wanting to try and get Jim to see things her way. She gathers pointers from Tabitha, who is intrigued by her traumatic past driving her, seeking to empower her, in her mind, with the lessons she has, the pursuit of destruction of evil. Barbara is arrested in the middle of the season still and has her mind messed with by Strange. Faking being docile to be set free, Strange releases her. Barbara, angered at feeling powerless in her life, goes to Tabitha still, feeling like she has nowhere else to go.

I think tone down the Bridgette backstory. More like her family's controlling, less than abusive. They're still arsonists for hire, but they're not over the top. Someone whose angry that her life is so controlled, feeling claustrophobic at the containment, a flame under a glass, as she would describe it, and wants to be free from their control, to be adventuress, in the midst of her being a thrill seeker, think of her as a twisted disney princess. When she's given the opportunity to help them in a job, she quickly takes it, feeling excitement at starting the fire and even nearly being burned badly herself, and when they lock her in her room again, she feels suffocated and has a panic attack at the claustrophobia and escapes, burning her brothers alive still in revenge.

The Order of St. Dumas: Change them pretty directly. No longer a group out to punish the Waynes by killing Bruce. They seek to tear down Wayne Enterprises for their sins, declaring it a tool of evil, and kill Bruce, in a reason that will be explored further later in the series, but hinted at when the leader tells young Bruce how sorry he is that this is happening to him, but it's the only way to make certain the head is severed for good. They'll kill him using a unique curved dagger which they say was stolen in a war hundreds of years ago, that their original leader St. Dumas died in battle to ensure, and promise will prevent his life from being perverted.

Theo still pulls strings to try and manipulate Penguin, having Tabitha kill his mom, when he tries to use Butch to get info on where she is. Very similar things happen to the actual season. But the Azrael concept is now accelerated to the mid-season finale. Theo Galavan is now a Knight of the Order of St. Dumas, who seeks to honor his people by destroying that which has threatened their people in a war that's lasted generations. He dons the armor in a battle between himself and the those Jim and Penguin have assembled in the mid-season finale and fights them off, Jim blowing his legs off with a shotgun, and allowing Oswald to still goad him into killing him. Though the remnants of the Order collect the armor afterwards in their retreat. Oswald takes the curved blade as a souvenir.

Nygma becomes more sociopathic as the season goes on, building to him revealing he killed Dougherty to Kringle, who freaks out and hits him and he kills her, not by choking her, but by snapping and hitting her with his question mark cup over the head. Panicking himself, he hides the body, but places riddles leading to her, his ego needing to prove. When Jim begins to investigate, uncovering the clues, Nygma frames him for the death of Officer Pinkney and leads the cops to evidence of Jim's involvement in Galavan's killing.

Freeze's story is very similar. But Nora's kept alive by Strange. Strange uses this to force him to help them. Nora's placed in a cryo tube.

Jim is in prison for 2 episodes, not 1. Dealing more with certain issues, maybe even seeing previous criminals from before. The cliffhanger of the first part is Bullock going to Falcone.

Bruce still goes to live on the streets with Selina, showing him how the underbelly of the city ticks, him using the nickname Matches when confronted, off the top of his head. This lasts until close to the end.

The investigating of Pinewood occurs with Selina involved as well, with Bruce still on the streets. With his dad's computer fixed, him, Alfred and Selina, find the name of and seek out someone that Thomas was keeping hidden under a fake name, in hopes of getting him to testify against Strange in court: Dr. Kirk Langstrom.

Kirk was a scientist in Indian Hill, working to use animal splicing as a way to cure human diseases, inspired by his son being deaf. He and his wife Francine, both scientists, had been working on a way to cure it using bat DNA. Strange was increasingly intrigued by this idea and offered to help, using a serum he'd insisted had been under numerous tests, he gave it to their son, and it worked, but his and Francine's happiness was short lived, as it eventually mutated their son into an almost zombie like deformity with batlike features who attacked and who Kirk killed to defend his wife, but not before his son bit him.

The self loathing, guilt, grief and pain eventually deteriorated the marriage. Obsessed with discovering the truth, Kirk dug into why it failed, discovering Strange's notes, that he'd used his son as a guinea pig to see if human DNA could altered substantially. Kirk brought this to Thomas, telling him the truth, that Strange had been using funds to commit numerous cases of crimes against humanity through his human experimentation. Thomas hid Kirk under a fake identity to protect him while he put together the evidence. When Strange found out about Thomas' preparations to take the case to the government, he had him killed not long after.

Bruce, Jim, Alfred and Selina find him and Kirk tells them about this, naming Strange, and admitting that he's kept hidden because with Thomas dead, he's feared for Francine's life and hasn't wanted to put her in jeopardy by stepping forward, without Thomas' protection. Since the situation Kirk has been quick tempered, violent and exhibiting enhanced strength. Now brokenhearted over being kept from Francine, he seeks her out after discovering Strange has her under surveillance.

Strange, when he discover's that Kirk's falling into position equips an amnesiac Bridgette to assassinate Kirk. Kirk has an emotional reconciliation with Francine, where he apologizes for what happened to their son, blaming himself for his relentless pursuit of trying to perfect him, then saying that he loves her. Bridgette attacks, using her flamethrower at Kirk and Francine, Kirk hiding her from the flames, burning him, the pain causing a full physical mutation into a Man-Bat, it grabbing Bridgette and throwing her into the wall, it's wingspan inadvertently knocking Francine out. Kirk cries out in an animalistic roar and takes Francine, flying out the window with her. In the midst of this, Selina is shaken at seeing Bridgette and tries to snap her out of it, who gets a flash of a memory, compromising her, then returning to Strange. Afterwards Bruce recognizes the name Strange from what was told to them by Kirk and digs up a photo of Thomas and Strange at a party, remembering him as a friend to the family. The betrayal of this enrages Bruce.

Jim works out that the Order of St Dumas were targeting Wayne Enterprises as punishment for their crimes and goes to Tabitha for information, her telling him that Wayne Enterprises has been corrupted for evil ends, though she doesn't know by who, as she was a warrior and not privy to that information. Bullock arrests her, in hopes of Jim getting more info on the situation. Strange becomes uneasy at learning about this, getting orders from an unseen figure to make sure she doesn't make it. Strange equips Victor Fries with his cryo-suit and tells him that only with their resources can they work out a cure, then telling him that if Jim Gordon can get the info he needs to shut down Indian Hill, without their help, Nora will die, and that he wants Tabitha and Jim dead.

Begrudgingly, Mr. Freeze attacks the police department, using his ice grenades. He nearly kills Tabitha, but is stopped by Jim and Barnes, leaving her half dead. In a fight between Freeze and Barnes, Freeze wounds him badly, though when the police department is surrounded by press and such, Strange calls him back, to avoid too much exposure.

Butch still goes to see Tabitha in the hospital, to be met with Penguin, who'd seen her being hurt on TV. Penguin, having now gotten all of his dad's assets, tells Butch that he will connect him with the best doctors to help Tabitha if Butch returns the seat at the head of the mob families to him. Butch questions him helping Tabitha, Penguin telling him that if she's going to die it'll be on his terms, not a freak in a space suit. Also telling Butch that he thinks he knows whose to blame for this, and that now they both have a score to settle.

When Bruce is devising a way to get into Arkham, Selina volunteers outright, to get Bridgette back.

Strange utilizes his experimentation on Basil Karlo and wakes him from his medically induced coma. Though unable to manipulate his skin at will, it's malleable and Strange still uses a device (though more portable) to force his skin to contort to look like Jim Gordon. Though for a different reason, so Basil can kill Bullock and take his place as acting Captain, to be able to control the police force.

As Bruce is being tortured by Nygma, the now revealed Court Of Owls questions Strange if their experiment is ready. Strange, with hesitance, says that Project March isn't fully developed. Meanwhile, as Bruce and Lucius are being tortured, electrifying the floor, Bruce admits, in a game of Truth or Die, that he thinks his dad was wrong for thinking he could use legal tactics to stop Strange. Nygma still releases a gas into the room, which doesn't kill them.

The finale occurs mostly the same. Though we see Basil Karlo escape. And Bruce feels responsible for Selina getting caught, telling her that he can't see her anymore at the end, in a cold tactic to try and disconnect. Bruce, afterwards, questions why Strange wouldn't have him killed after all he's dug into them. The same cliffhanger, with the escape of the Indian Hill experiments, ending with the clone of Bruce.

[While this isn't going to be an outright total rewrite of the show (despite the problems I know it has, for the most part I think the stuff it does strongly, is stronger than other DC TV shows), it's more of a refining of ideas that the show has and adding more character building to it. It's not total scripting, but parceling out of ideas. Starting with season 1, here are the ideas that God blessed me with.]

While this isn't going to be an outright total rewrite of the show (despite the problems I know it has, for the most part I think the stuff it does strongly, is stronger than other DC TV shows), it's more of a refining of ideas that the show has and adding more character building to it. It's not total scripting, but parceling out of ideas. Starting with season 1, here are the ideas that God blessed me with.

We basically start out the show the same. The changes start as the season would go on.

Bruce's arc is not depending on those around him for their help.

Jim becomes embittered about Gotham as a city.

Bullock rediscovers his desire to help people.

Selina, as a flipside to Bruce, starts to recognize her caring about people and in some ways see it as a weakness.

Alfred begins to realize that he can't control Bruce.

This is mainly an out of left field idea, one I'd be comfortable not doing and could see why the show wouldn't in wanting to maintain name recognition with Oswald Cobblepot character: Oswald's name isn't Cobblepot, but something else. He was raised by his mom with no knowledge of his dad. His family lineage on his dad's side isn't something that'd be revealed until season 2, which is Cobblepot. But again, this is just an idea.

By the same measure, Ed could also explain that he changed his real name from Nashton to Nygma, feeling it suited him more and he hated his family anyway.

Basil Karlo is a villain of the week in place of the villain in the episode Arkham. Basil Karlo is an accomplished actor whose face was damaged in a car accident. Desperate to retake his roles as an actor after being fired, he kills people for the mob using an experimental face cream that he can use to make himself look like other people and his acting abilities to get close to them. The episode ends with him being shot and the cream leaking into his blood stream, though not killing him, but making him convulse and kept in a medically induced coma to keep him from being in physical pain. Roland Dagget being the middle man between the mob and Basil that hired him to do this.

The Goat episode would now be about the foundation of the Ventriloquist and Scarface. The first born, introverted, son of one of Gotham's mob families, Arnold Wesker (preferably played as an adult by Nate Corddry), is someone who is put down by his dad and comforted by his mom. As a child he used his ventriloquism to voice is emotions and feelings. His mom was murdered in front of him as a child in a mob hit while he was performing his ventriloquism act for her. This was one of Bullock's earliest cases. In trying to catch the assassin his partner was hurt badly and nearly killed and another rookie died. The case was swept under the rug by Wesker's dad, as the assassination was done as a warning against Wesker's dad for him transporting guns into the city without Falcone's approval and he did it to avoid being caught for his dealings. Arnold Wesker grew more introverted and began to not speak to anyone, except through his puppet, Scarface, which he carved as a reference to his mom's favorite movie and was performing that for her when she was shot. The main plot begins when the same assassin begins killing again in Gotham and Jim refuses to drop it when Bullock tells him to. At the end of the episode, Arnold Wesker snaps and beats his dad's head in with his scarface dummy, killing him, for not avenging his mom's killing.

Make Richard Sionis him a mobster, running an underground fighting ring, where there's a deformed wrestler named Waylon Jones, nicknamed Killer Croc. Croc at this point has basically a harsh skin condition. Set up Richard Sionis' son, after Richard is killed in the episode, at the funeral.

Seed a different kind of Ivy, more science child prodigy, whose mom is killed by her dad and buried in their rose garden.

Have Harvey Dent be younger, but still a few years older than Bruce. He could play as a more older brother type figure to him. Expand on Bruce's supporting cast a little, like showing Tommy Elliot as being someone whose resentful of Bruce's life. Maybe Harvey Dent's abusive dad can be a storyline. He could be a Gotham judge, that forces young Harvey to choose which side a coin would land on in regards to whether or not his mom would be beaten, it being a 2 headed coin, who his mom eventually kills. The blood spray from the gunshot, splattering on half of Harvey's face and one half of the coin, which Harvey keeps. Though the kill wasn't in self defense, Jim, compromising, doesn't turn the evidence over to the police and lets her go.

No Ed split personality thing. Though have him become more aggressive and angry at his situations. I don't think having Kringle is a bad idea, with where it leads in season 1. Before Ed kills Kringle's abusive boyfriend, he sits in his car, telling himself to be a man, and then gets out of his car to confront Daougherty, in a green suit. Dougherty mocks the green suit. Ed explains that his dad was a bouncer for a club that got shut down years ago and this was the suit he'd wear, that his dad was hard on him and always put down his intelligence, but would always tell him to be a man and stand up for himself. When Dougherty hits Ed a couple times, Ed stabs him once, then continuing to stab him multiple times even after he's down, taking all his rage and resentment out on Dougherty. As Dougherty dies he calls him his nick name for him, "Riddle Man... Riddle... er." before he dies.

I think keeping Jerome a little more vague in his past can play too.

Alfred's army buddy is now David Cain instead of Reggie. David Cain comes in the middle of the season and hangs around for a few episodes, giving Bruce some fight training, before it's revealed that he's betrayed them and stabs Alfred. Looking for answers on where he is, Bruce and Selina go to the ball, before they confront David. Selina stills pushes him out the window after he threatens their lives. Which Bruce is conflicted about. Selina snaps that she did what had to be done. Bruce isn't sure he wants to spend time with her.

I'm not against the idea of not keeping Barbara Kean as the doting girlfriend, but I think take it a little more as a cold blooded approach, to the point where she's more detached and amoral, instead of straight villain. No Montoya story for her. She's kidnapped by Falcone and feels troubled, unsafe and angry at her own place, almost like PTSD and leaves. Her arc concludes when she's kidnapped, by someone called the Moth, who Jim shoots and she brutally finishes off in a fit of rage. Moth being a hitman, a single dad with a son, who feeds off of the mob-run Gotham, and with Jim Gordon threatening that, seeks to punish him for it, into submission.

This season still ends very similarly. But Bruce actually walks into the batcave and sees it, the bats in it, and finds his dad's information.

Please review and tell me what you think!

As a narrative concerning the rise and fall of Harvey Dent, I really like your synopsis.  I like his background (i.e. the abusive childhood which forced him to commit murder, and how it contrasts with Bruce Wayne's similarly traumatic background, albeit one in which Bruce was at least blessed with two loving and caring parents for the first few years of his life).  I also like the idea of Selina as Dent's assistant, as it suggests a more idealistic background for her, as opposed to working as the 'executive assistant' (I mean secretary...) of a corporate bigwig.

But I still think your ideas would work better for an alternative Batman Forever, or even as a subplot to Batman Returns, as opposed to the central story.

There isn't really a big existential baddie master-scheme, akin to The Penguin planning to kidnap and drown Gotham's firstborn, and when that fails, destroy all of Gotham with rocket-carrying penguins.  It reads more like a fascinating psychological arthouse-style story, almost akin to say last year's The Joker, as opposed to a blockbuster action/adventure film (which is great in its own right, but wouldn't really have worked for a 1992 summer tentpole CBM).  Dent is also much more sympathetic than Shreck, and arguably too conflicted to be consigned to the 'Big Bad' role, in contrast to the odious Max Shreck.  Selina's decision to get revenge on Max feels much more of a righteous crusade against a cold-blooded capitalist overlord than it would had she instead sought out to avenge Dent, who comes across as a similarly tragic and damaged victim of abuse as opposed to a truly loathsome monster.

That's why Shreck was such a great character (although I'd have preferred it if Daniel Waters had instead incorporated Rupert Thorne or a another pre-established comic-book character in the corporate baddie role - someone like Marlon Brando, Brian Cox or Brendan Gleeson would have been perfect in that role).  He's the one Batman Returns villain who doesn't have a truly tragic background (it is suggested that he is a self-made man, and we also learn that his wife is dead, albeit possibly at his own hands, but compared to the film's other main characters, Bruce, Oswald and Selina, Max is relatively 'normal' and fairly angst-free), and thus he is the one character in the film that is perfectly okay for us to despise and anticipate his downfall.

Still, I do like many of your ideas, even if I think they work better as a side story to the main action, leading up to a cliffhanger in which Harvey Dent becomes Two-Face and thus the main villain in Batman 3/Batman Forever.

Maybe Dent, rather than the mayor, is the one who is blocking Max's power plant scheme, and maybe it is Max, in conjunction with The Penguin and his goons, who conspires to have him killed (except his 'accident' doesn't finish him off, but simply leaves him physically and mentally scarred), and perhaps Selina is 'killed' because she was the one who uncovered Max's plan to murder Dent.  Even better, perhaps Selina was a plant in Max's office, and was in fact working as an informant for Dent who had his suspicions about Max's criminal activities, and when Max discovered this, he pushed Selina out of his skyscraper building.

I think Shreck and Dent all thrown in with Oswald and Selina is a lot.

But also, I think Selina's reasonings being less justified can showcase the darker side of her revenge.

The idea here, as well, is that the movie would basically be as is, with the Shreck stuff reworked to fit the Dent plot, not taking out the Penguin stuff. The Dent stuff is apart of the story.

This sounds like as good a way as any of replacing Shreck with Dent. But at the end of the day, I think having Penguin, Catwoman and Two-Face in the same film would have been too much. You can get away with having Shreck in the movie along with Penguin and Catwoman because Max is a fairly shallow character compared to Oswald and Selina. He has few emotional drives beyond greed and self-preservation (he also loves his son Chip, but that love is only really expressed in one scene). Dent is far more layered and complex. You could have a movie with just Two-Face and Penguin, but then you'd lose Selina, the best part of the film. Alternatively you could have Two-Face and Catwoman, then save Penguin for Batman III.

At any rate, I don't think replacing Shreck with Dent in Batman Returns would have worked. Not unless they'd heavily restructured the narrative and bumped one of the other larger-than-life villains into the next movie. But that's just my two cents.

Two-Face isn't really a main villain in this movie. It's a set-up for the character.

[I think Batman Returns is an entertaining movie. As weird as it may seem, it and Batman 89 are some of the movies of my childhood. But I think it's missing elements and potential ideas that could tie the franchise together and further build on character dynamics and story elements that I think have already been set up, to me, in the movie in some ways. Here are the ideas God blessed me with for that:]

I think Batman Returns is an entertaining movie. As weird as it may seem, it and Batman 89 are some of the movies of my childhood. But I think it's missing elements and potential ideas that could tie the franchise together and further build on character dynamics and story elements that I think have already been set up, to me, in the movie in some ways. Here are the ideas God blessed me with for that:

The motive is more tied to Harvey Dent thinking the police need more financial backing, but the mayor is content to let Batman do all the work for the police, who Dent thinks they've become too reliant on.

This adds another element that fills out the idea of mistrust against Batman that the movie later touches on when he's framed by Penguin. And adds a more thorough thematic element that, while I think may be in the movie already, I think is mainly left in the Selina and Bruce last scenes they have together, where I think it comes off like Bruce has learned some form of lesson, in seeing Selina's viscous dark attitude and how it relates to him and now thinking that they're not above the law.

The stress of the job has begun to get to Dent and he's been blacking out and losing time, and seeing a therapist to deal with his problems and talk about his childhood abuse at the hands of his dad, him killing his dad in defense of his mom as he used his coin to force young Harvey what would happen.

Harvey has begun trying to use flipping the coin to make choices for himself as a way to relieve his stress.

Penguin approaches Harvey as a way to help him get his foothold, Harvey being the trusted figure that he is. Harvey thinks he may be able to use the situation to get Penguin in run for mayor and get the funding for the police department and less dependent on Batman.

Selina being his assistant, who accidentally stumbles across the file and information on his mental state and when Dent catches her, her trying to suggest that he step down (Harvey being unwilling to for his fear of leaving Gotham to be consumed by its insanity, him pressuring himself that he has to protect it), the stress of this causing him to snap and transition into his darker personality that takes over in his blackouts. This dark version pushing Selina out the window, in a perception of the ends of justify the means.

Naturally the change equals a change in how Bruce and Harvey interact, as opposed to how Bruce and Shreck interact. Now the dynamic is more one of opposing perspectives that Bruce begins to see Harvey's side of in the situation about Batman and how Batman may be responsible for the current insanity of their situation. We can maybe even parallel the idea of Bruce's obsession to save Gotham being connected to his parents death and Harvey's obsession to do so and how he pressures himself to is connected to him feeling powerless as a child to protect his mom and how he killed his dad to do so.

His mental breaking begins to become harsher, after finding out that he's made a deal with a criminal in Oswald, the stress beginning to consume him.

At the end, the stress finally causes a complete break when he's taken by Penguin (for Harvey turning on him after realizing what he is), and is nearly killed by Selina, him trying to kill her in his darker persona, and then her electrocuting him, burning half his face.

Amongst the ending parts of the movie, Bruce visits Harvey in the hospital, apologizing for failing him and the city, later showing Harvey no longer in his bed, and ending on an uncertain not for Bruce about himself and how he relates to the city.

Please review and tell me what you think!