We all know the multiple design changes between the original Batman: The Animated Series and The New Batman Adventures. It's been said that most don't reflect literally, but how much represents an actual change when it comes to the characters?
An obvious one, the Riddler is seen destroying his costume in his last appearance in BTAS. We can assume that his TNBA jumpsuit is an actual representation of his newly devised costume.
Batgirl I'm not sure of. While it could be an unilateral change, I've imagined that one scenario is that the new black Batgirl costume is a result of Bruce's tailoring, and bestowed upon Barbara as Batman lets her into the cave in Old Wounds.
The Joker is definitely not literal, as BTAS-era flashbacks also show the new black-eyed Joker. Which then changes to the slightly different Justice League variation.
Bane's first costume got ripped up at the end of his BTAS appearance, seems logical that the TNBA appearance represents an updated costume.
The one I'm not sure about is Batman. His TNBA appearance is pretty much identical to his chronological first BTAS suit. Since the flashback in Old Wounds shows it as the same suit, I'll assume it was intended to be the same. Though I'd accept the Justice League suit as canon because of how it transitions into the Beyond suit.
Mr. Freeze is probably meant to be a literal change because of his robot body and such.
Mad Hatter is partially both; the gray hair suggests age, but the suddenly small stature doesn't represent an actual change. The suit could be either.
Penguin is the biggest; being suddenly un-deformed, the answer is obvious.
There's a lot of rumors/theories/unfinished plot ideas that describe the Scarecrow. I personally don't know what to think; I don't even know if his TAS redesign was supposed to be literal.
Any thoughts on the subject.
I didn't mind Batman's redesign despite his face looking somewhat younger than it did in BTAS. My only complaint is that he is a lot more cold, detached and even somewhat callous compared to how he was in BTAS. Look at the episode I Am The Night where he felt he reached the end of his rope and is a lot more empathetic , and compare that to the Old Wounds episode where he feels unmoved during his conflict with Robin. You could even tell that it affected Kevin Conroy's voice too, where he sounded too calm. In fact, he stopped trying to mask his Bruce Wayne billionaire voice as well for the entire series! I guess that the showrunners were trying to tell us that Batman became more desensitized to his surroundings as he got older?
Let's not forget that Commissioner Gordon looks a lot more frail in TNBA compared to his robust physique in BTAS.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg4.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20110331023716%2Fbatmananimatedseries%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F3%2F36%2FComish_tas.jpg%2F81px-Comish_tas.jpg&hash=d09e164b7c7185308920e365e0d7d20b9612a5ff)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTXO4qs0vq7lsMnYPVUH2MkbSAZ5V893CtSAYVD_vcQtQif-71X)
I could've done without the villains' design changes to be honest. Except for maybe Killer Croc, I don't really think any of them were an improvement from the original series. Am I alone in thinking that the Penguin's traditional, gentlemanly comic book look in TNBA came across somewhat thinner than his Batman Returns-inspired look? I actually prefer the BTAS design because it gave Penguin that comical appeal to his character, which is a complete contrast from the Burton version.
The Joker's redesign just sucks. I don't buy into the idea that they were under budget, I think they wanted to change for the sake of it. Too bad he looks less appealing and comical compared to how he looked in BTAS. By the way, does anybody else remember that Joker was referred to as Jack Napier by Dr. Bartholomew in Dreams in Darkness? He was never called by that name again, although the Beware of the Creeper episode in TNBA still used the Napier origin story. And if you remember Jack Ryder's news report, that incident supposedly took seven years earlier. I guess according to this, Batman's crusade between the present day in Mask of Phantasm and the two animated series took place almost a decade, at best. :-\
I dislike Joker's new design but the rest aren't bad.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 09:58
The Joker's redesign just sucks. I don't buy into the idea that they were under budget, I think they wanted to change for the sake of it. Too bad he looks less appealing and comical compared to how he looked in BTAS.
At worst, budget cuts look like this:
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.tinypic.com%2F256fi20.jpg&hash=ce800aa353633610bb53f9ebbda23b75597f81e5)
(see also, Harley, Dick Grayson's Robin, Bullock)
When in motion, these characters felt even more so the same.
Nothing about the new Joker really clicked, which was why he was later reverted to some degree. The team really embraced the cheaper, stylized designs, which is why some of the designs went a little overboard. Still looks top notch, though.
I was kind of disappointed by the Penguin's change, even though they went back to the original plans they had. A really cool moment in the series that couldn't have been done otherwise is the introductory shots that show the villains just by their hands (including the Penguin's flippers). Couldn't have been done otherwise. The look they used was the mayor outfit of the Penguin from Returns, which was in turn a direct reference to the comics. So it all came full circle with a Penguin with the looks of the bird man from the movie with the larger than life attitude from the comics.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 09:58
I guess according to this, Batman's crusade between the present day in Mask of Phantasm and the two animated series took place almost a decade, at best. :-\
Interesting that they'd give an exact date like that. Bruce took Dick in when he was no more than thirteen, so there's at least a five year gap in between that time, and then I forget how many years between BTAS and TNBA.
I think we could assume Bruce started being Batman in his late 20s/early 30s, and ended by the time he was in his early 60s, pre-Batman Beyond. Not a bad run. Way better than Bale's Batman's career.
Also, there's still a lot of potential for stories between the beginning in Mask of the Phantasm and the start of the Animated Series, pre-Robin, most notably, the Joker's backstory. And we've also got plenty of stories for young Robin between Robin's Reckoning and TAS. While the gaps between TAS and TNBA were mainly filled in, we still have from TNBA to Bruce's retirement.
One of my probs with the redesigns was the girls' bodies. Too angular. Not as realistic as BTAS.
Selina's redesign sucked. Didn't like the short hair or the all black, plain ass costume. Ivy was ok but not as good as before, and Harley was worse cause the suit stayed the same, just angled up.
They must have been picturing Madonna when they did them lol
I agree that the Penguin's redesign made him look less appealing. It's a stark contrast to the charming outcast who wants to be respected by an elite group of people, i.e. Birds of a Feather. I suppose in TNBA, his success in hosting the Iceberg Lounge means that he found his niche. I guess the redesign reflected that.
You can tell that the TNBA designs tend to have wider shoulders, thin limbs and waists, and pointy feet. I'm not really trashing these designs but it is a step below compared to what we saw in the original series.
Quote from: Catwoman on Fri, 31 Oct 2014, 22:35
Selina's redesign sucked. Didn't like the short hair or the all black, plain ass costume. Ivy was ok but not as good as before, and Harley was worse cause the suit stayed the same, just angled up.
I never understood why she needed to put white make-up all over her mouth either.
Mad Hatter and Scarecrow changed drastically too. Hatter looked funny with the big teeth, straw-like hair and the long tuxedo. In TNBA, he was much shorter and even creepy-looking. In any case though, both designs looked similar to the late British comedian Rik Mayall.
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He would've made a great live-action Mad Hatter. ;D
Scarecrow was redesigned three times over the years. Bruce Timm thought he couldn't make him look more intimidating if stuck with the original Scarecrow straw hat design, so he later redesigned him as somebody who resembled a "rotten corpse". Scarecrow's burlap sack mask was swapped with a decaying-looking skull mask and wore a noose around his neck. The voice acting changed from a sophisticated English professor into someone who sounds like the Grim Reaper.
Oops I didn't realize this was just about the design in terms of canon. Hm.
Ivy's, she changed a lot, but wasn't there like a comic book or something that takes place after the newer show where her new design like melts away sort of like she did in her escape in the House and Garden epi (one of the best epis ever of BTAS btw) and her BTAS design shows up and reveals the new one was a clone or something? I think I read that but I may have imagined it when I fell off the cart and got drunk lol.
I've re-watched The Mask of the Phantasm, and the time in between Batman's first year and the present is ten years. At the time, Batman must have been 24-25 (presently ~35). Joker was also around the same age. It would seem like a plot hole that Jack became the Joker only seven years previous to The New Batman Adventures, but it can be consolidated somewhat. TNBA takes place two years later, meaning that Batman would have been at it five years before that confrontation. I loved watching TNBA, but some of the retcons make you wonder. Speaking of which, the name Jack Napier was also seen in Joker's Wild; it was Beware the Creeper that eventually retconned this and inferred that he only used aliases.
I think I might branch out and make a different thread chronicling the timeline of the series.
While I didn't like Selina's short, dark hair in the revamp, I was fine with the suit (could've used red lipstick instead of black, though). Strangely, this was a callback to Batman Returns, in which the opposite changes happened between Penguin and Catwoman when it came to TAS and TNBA (Penguin was envisioned as his comic appearance, but changed to the movie appearance; opposite went for Catwoman). I didn't have too much of a problem with the pale face, they were just trying to imitate Michelle Pfeiffer's appearance. That wasn't supposed to be taken as actual makeup, just something to add some more interesting features to the costume (like Batman's black eye makeup in the movies).
Though it's interesting that you bring up the redesigns for female characters. all of them seemed to have gotten micro-waists and larger heads. It worked for Barbara/Batgirl, but seemed to clash with previously established mature women like Catwoman and Poison Ivy. They look like young girls now.
Oh my freaking gosh did you make the manip or whatever they're called lol of the BTAS design in the all black with the pale face like Returns? That is like the greatest thing ever!
That was just the crew's original design, actually. I believe Kenner wanted gray Catwoman toys, and that's what prompted the design change in the end.
Bastards!
WB and toy companies interfering with a media adaptation is nothing new, as you know. But unlike what happened to the Schumacher films, I'd say BTAS benefited from studio interference because we wouldn't get the BR-inspired Penguin or the grey-costumed Catwoman.
Another thing I noticed is that Gotham City was redesigned in TNBA too. It resembled more of a modern city than the 40s Art Deco look. Which is odd because the Superman show had architecture in Metropolis similar to BTAS' Gotham.
Given the choice I would have preferred the black suit that was very Returns-y
Going back to how design changes are factored into the series', the comic tie-ins may contribute some information to this, specifically, Batman Adventures: The Lost Years, which serves its purpose to fill the gap in between series'. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get ahold of many issues; the collected edition is quite pricey. Though I read online that Gotham Adventures at least explains that Selina Kyle's blonde hair in the first series was a result of dying, but she gave that up in the new series because that product involved animal testing. Fair enough.
Though canonicity of the comics actually came into question when Bruce Timm made this statement:
QuoteOf course, we'd teamed them up previously in the comics- we'd done that annual. The comic book animated continuity is actually different than the actual animated continuity- they'll do things that contradict what we do and vice versa. But for the sake of the Demon story we did in the animated show, we subsumed the annual we had done into the animated continuity just to get things moving faster.
I guess he's just trying to be safe in the sense that both mediums can be independent of each other. Though the fact remains that the comic series only existed to tie-in to the animated series. Meanwhile, aspects of the comics (i.e. Mad Love) were directly lifted from the comics for the show. So I believe there still is an intentional connection. But because the show is the dominant medium and takes priority when it comes to canon in instances where one source contradicts the other.
I've also found the original renditions of Catwoman/Penguin. I like Catwoman's design, I could totally see it as a precursor to her suit during the series, she comes off as a lot younger. It also seems to reflect the classic cat burglar persona of her during the golden age.
The next picture is Bruce Timm's sketch of Danny DeVito on the set of Batman Returns when they were still developing the characters. It seems Timm was really opposed to the Returns design, as his caricature carries over little of DeVito's distinct features, aside from the shape and proportions.
Another instance of the redesign creating a conflict is with the Ventriloquist/Scarface. While Scarface has a knack for being destroyed, he was intact last we saw him in Lock-Up. Aside from that, we've seen that Wesker rebuilds him in the same form each time. And of all the redesigns, Wesker looks like a doodle. And speaking of Scarface, how did Batman obtain him? Double Talk was supposedly The Ventriloquist's sendoff (a good one at that), and Scarface was completely destroyed, making me believe Batman had a replica (maybe it was the first Scarface that got riddled with bullets, but was still intact). I think The Ventriloquist was seen during Over the Edge with Scarface, so maybe he reverted back, and Scarface eventually wound up in Batman's hands.
EDIT:
Back on topic: the defunct TNBA website had an interesting tidbit (on discussion of the Batcave):
QuoteHere are displayed intriguing souvenirs from Batman's toughest cases: a collection of the Penguin's deadly umbrellas, a preserved Joker laughing fish, one of Harley Quinn's popguns, a bullet-riddled Scarface dummy, Bane's mask and Venom tank, Baby Doll's gun-doll, Mad Hatter's top hat, Maxie Zues's lightning weapon and many other mementoes
Never realized it before, but Scarface is full of bullets... this then confirms that Batman kept the Ventriloquist's first Scarface dummy, and got around to displaying him with the rest of the mementoes during the TNBA era. The fact that this Scarface should be the same design as the TAS version confirms that this is not a literal redesign.
Bane's mask and venom tank... This again is clearly a reference to Bane's TAS outing, where Batman is seen to remove both of these items. Makes you wonder how he ended up in possession of these - Batman threw them to Rupert Thorne before he left. Oh well, this explains why Bane had a new mask and venom apparatus.
Mad Hatter's top hat - Mad Hatter was still active during TNBA, so this must be a part of his original costume. His new suit was an actual change.
Quote from: Slash Man on Fri, 7 Nov 2014, 01:56
The next picture is Bruce Timm's sketch of Danny DeVito on the set of Batman Returns when they were still developing the characters. It seems Timm was really opposed to the Returns design, as his caricature carries over little of DeVito's distinct features, aside from the shape and proportions.
Yes, Timm was forced to loosely adapt DeVito's physical interpretation in the cartoon. I get the feeling that Timm is a comic book purest. For instance, he had to be convinced that Brainiac was an AI who had a hand in Krypton's destruction in Superman: The Animated Series.
If Timm was forced to adapt a Joker who looked like Ledger, I wouldn't be surprised that he'd be extremely pissed off.
And so he should, in my opinion. ;)
Quote from: Slash Man on Fri, 7 Nov 2014, 01:56
Bane's mask and venom tank... This again is clearly a reference to Bane's TAS outing, where Batman is seen to remove both of these items. Makes you wonder how he ended up in possession of these - Batman threw them to Rupert Thorne before he left. Oh well, this explains why Bane had a new mask and venom apparatus.
I think it's either possible that Batman fought Bane wearing that costume one more time off-screen before the design change...or the collection is nothing more than an Easter egg. :-\
All very likely. Though to my knowledge, most of those never actually appeared in any episodes, the character bios on the website just said that Batman kept them (the exception being Scarface, which was eventually shown).
Bane did eventually return back to South American, and came back when Gotham was vulnerable, but that doesn't mean that him and Batman didn't meet again in the time in between.
So I didn't previously know this, but the Poison Ivy never appears during The New Batman Adventures. Let me elaborate:
The comic tie-in shows that the new Poison Ivy is just a clone of Pamela Isley, and then dies as the secret is revealed by the real Pamela. Not sure how I feel about that plot twist, and all the development that DIDN'T happen because it wasn't the real Poison Ivy in TNBA. This retcon seems to be how the creators explain Poison Ivy's new look, as well as her more supernatural abilities.
http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/672339.html
Someone had already mentioned that, but no one paid her any mind as usual.
Quote from: Catwoman on Sat, 1 Nov 2014, 00:12
Oops I didn't realize this was just about the design in terms of canon. Hm.
Ivy's, she changed a lot, but wasn't there like a comic book or something that takes place after the newer show where her new design like melts away sort of like she did in her escape in the House and Garden epi (one of the best epis ever of BTAS btw) and her BTAS design shows up and reveals the new one was a clone or something? I think I read that but I may have imagined it when I fell off the cart and got drunk lol.
Quote from: Slash Man on Tue, 20 Sep 2016, 04:42
So I didn't previously know this, but the Poison Ivy never appears during The New Batman Adventures. Let me elaborate:
The comic tie-in shows that the new Poison Ivy is just a clone of Pamela Isley, and then dies as the secret is revealed by the real Pamela. Not sure how I feel about that plot twist, and all the development that DIDN'T happen because it wasn't the real Poison Ivy in TNBA. This retcon seems to be how the creators explain Poison Ivy's new look, as well as her more supernatural abilities.
http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/672339.html
Not sure I like that revelation, considering all the characters had design overhauls.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 20 Sep 2016, 06:52Not sure I like that revelation, considering all the characters had design overhauls.
Ditto. I read that entire run of comics and there were a lot of problems with it. Harvey Bullock was sick to his stomach because of the smoke from the Penguin's cigarette. Yeah, because
Harvey Bullock hates tobacco. Oy, I know
Smoking is bad, mmmkay? but for God's sake next time put the dialogue in
ANY other character's mouth. Montoya would've sufficed just fine.
But yeah, the Poison Ivy thing was over the line. It bugged me because it basically nullified her entire run in the redesigned era of the show.
Still, the "canonicity" of all this stuff is dubious at best, completely optional at worst. If you don't want that to be in your continuity (it sure isn't in mine!), I wouldn't blame you.
The whole thing is ambiguously canon at best. Gotham Adventures probably had the most divergences from the series; all the previous series' under the Batman Adventures lines had some kind of direct tie-in at least. By the time of Gotham Adventures, the series pretty much existed in its own continuity, while optionally providing the opportunity to fill in some gaps from the TV series.