Facebook
twitter

Author Topic: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***  (Read 1880 times)

Offline The Laughing Fish

  • Gotham Citizen
  • Winged Avenger
  • ***
  • Forum posts: 2,223
  • Image uploads: 37
  • "But the fish share my unique face!"
    • View Profile
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #40 on: Sat, 2 Dec 2017, 09:54 »
One thing I adored about BVS was how much @$$ Batman kicked. We didn't see too much of that in JL. I mean old fashioned John Wayne put up your dukes stuff where Batman shows a crook the error of his ways with both fists. There wasn't as much of that in JL.

I thought Batman held his own as best as he could against the Parademons. I thought his struggles fighting them played into the idea how vulnerable and human he is, which justifies his recruitment of the metahumans to fight them. That alone lives up to the movie's tagline "You can't save the world alone".

Yes, it would've been nice to see a fight scene on the same level, as say, the Warehouse scene in BvS. But I find Batman's arc, as it was in BvS, to be far more interesting and one of the many strengths of this film. The end of BvS has Batman turning a corner, and is sorry that his mistreatment and mistrust over Superman had indirectly caused his death, even though ironically, his creation of the Kryptonite spear had helped saved the planet from Doomsday. His newfound respect for Clark and faith in his goodness is the perfect contrast to the paranoid hatred for him from BvS. Even when Alfred and the team protests his plans to bring him back from the dead using the Mother Box, because of the fear of the potential negative consequences, Bruce is undeterred and even went far by saying Clark was more human than he was. Witnessing somebody giving their own lives to protect the greater despite whatever adversity they faced would draw admiration, and Bruce realised the world needed to regain something precious it had lost.

Bruce knew if he could free himself from the guilt and bring Clark back somehow, he'd take the chance. As I said before, Batman using Lois as leverage to calm Superman down once he returns shows the length he goes to make amends for all the indirect damage he caused in BvS. You might lament that the Knightmare scene from that movie doesn't get explored, and it's an understandable criticism. But it is still argued that Batman took Future Flash's advice about Lois being the key, and used it to help Superman to recuperate from his revival.

The ending of the film comes to full circle for Batman. As we saw him anonymously donating for Clark's funeral at the end of the Ultimate Edition of BvS, Bruce, this time, spends his wealth to restore the Kent family home from and finally fixes his mistake, as he tells to a grateful Clark. Now yes, the ending does have problems because it doesn't explore how Clark marks his return when he was announced dead in Smallville and the Daily Planet. But strictly speaking for Batman's arc, there was definitely a sense of closure, and his positive frame of mind continues as he plans to restore Wayne Manor to its former glory.

Yet, despite all this simple yet brilliant arc in redemption, I see people declare Batman as 'useless' in JL. What utterly pitiful fools.

Sorry, bro. But the sting of this movie is still a little fresh for me.

I understand the disappointment to an extent. I do have gripes of my own, but where mine mostly concerns about the amount of footage that didn't make it to the final cut, yours has to do with the tone veering too far away from MOS and BvS than you might've expected. Correct if I'm wrong. But that's totally understandable and there's nothing wrong with that.

But the critics and naysayers can go to hell. They complained incessantly about the first Snyder films, but now I see some of them suggesting they would've liked to see what the film would've been if Snyder had finished it without any involvement from Whedon. They're complete and utter turncoats. They got a lighter, "fun" movie, but they still chose to sh*t on it.


Quote
Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Offline thecolorsblend

  • Winged Avenger
  • ****
  • Forum posts: 2,549
  • Image uploads: 18
  • calmer than you are
    • View Profile
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #41 on: Sat, 2 Dec 2017, 17:27 »
To me, Jett is basically the official spokesman of the anti-DCEU contingent. Not sure if he took that mantle up willingly or if it was thrust upon him. Based upon his writings (such as they are), it looks like something he actively campaigned for but who could say?

In any event, I regard him as the guy in the room speaking for everyone with a chip on their shoulder about something something Snyder, muh reboot or generally But it's not Nolan though, ARRRRRGH!. I think it would be fair to say that JL's intended core audience was this "disaffected" type. WB wanted this crowd back in the game and on board with whatever's coming next.

And if Jett is their frontman then it would be safe to say that JL is at best an average movie for them. They're not saying it's because of Snyder but, y'know, it's because of Snyder.

In some ways I can understand why WB did what they did. They don't want their movies' core audience slurping Mountain Dew in their basements as they smack-talk WB's efforts on Twitter. But in the end, what did it get them? I'll let Jett's mealy-mouthed columns speak for themselves.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/dc-comics-on-film_JUSTICE-LEAGUE_review_byJett_11-15-17.html

http://www.batman-on-film.com/THE-BATMAN_opinion_time-for-batfleck-to-go_byJett_11-24-17.html

These are not the words of someone who believes the DCEU (JL notwithstanding) can be rehabilitated. Even if such a thing is possible for this specimen, it's still undesirable. There's no parallel universe out there where Jett and his ilk will ever be on board with Snyder in any capacity. In fact, I remain skeptical that they even want Batman as a member of a larger DC universe.

Affleck may very well quit. And if he does, he's taking the entire DCEU with him.

If it comes to that, WB can't leave Batman on the shelf. They've developed a taste for billion-grossing Batman movies and they're not letting that go easily.

One suggestion I had post-TDKRises was an anthology franchise along the lines of that Legends Of The Dark Knight comic from the 90's. Bring in Robert Rodriguez for one movie, Quentin Tarantino for one movie, Guillermo del Toro for one movie, etc. Let them compile their own casts, tell their own stories and then go their own ways, passing the baton to somebody else after one movie. Some can be absurdly high-budget affairs while others can be borderline indie movies with paltry budgets. WB need not risk losing their collective shirt on these ventures, right?

This approach creates a tremendous opportunity for a diversity of material. It's a new and original way of developing a "franchise" and it explores the possibilities Batman offers more completely than would otherwise be possible.

Frankly, I'm fed up with trilogies. I think a lot of moviegoers are. So maybe what WB could do is change the paradigm a little bit by telling disconnected, unrelated stories where filmmakers are afforded some pretty decent latitude to do whatever they want and then they can move on.

I know I'm verging on tl;dr here but imagine the possibilities. You can tell Arkham video game type stories, smaller and more intimate stories, big and sprawling stories. You can go dark, gritty and realistic along the lines of Nolan. Or you can go way over-the-top fun and make a live action Dick Sprang film. You can make a period piece Batman film set in the 30's or you can make something set in the modern era.

Of all characters, the sky is the limit with Batman. You can do anything. Go anywhere. So WB should do that!

Offline Travesty

  • Gotham Citizen
  • Side-Kick
  • ***
  • Forum posts: 280
    • View Profile
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 2 Dec 2017, 19:40 »
Speaking of, that's always been my dream: a Batman movie set in the 30s. Aesthetically, I want it to look similar to Sky Captain, and I would have Batman in his grey and blue with the yellow oval. All of the villains would be fantastical, but there would still be street level mobsters. I can picture it in my head.

Is there a thread for this? Our dream live action Batman movies?

Offline The Dark Knight

  • Gotham Citizen
  • Dark Knight
  • ***
  • Forum posts: 5,755
  • Image uploads: 146
    • View Profile
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #43 on: Sun, 3 Dec 2017, 00:37 »
There's no parallel universe out there where Jett and his ilk will ever be on board with Snyder in any capacity. In fact, I remain skeptical that they even want Batman as a member of a larger DC universe.
The Texan (who had a falling out with two loyal staff members) is not a fan of shared universe Batman. My preference these days is shared universe Batman. That means he can still operate in Gotham separately from these other heroes, but they also exist. Batman can mingle with them if the story demands it. The League members make the WORLD richer and more expansive. I think that should be embraced.

I also like how it makes Batman more scientific and strategic because he has tougher obstacles to overcome.

Look, at the end of the day the public enjoyed the movie.
The RT critic score is 41% - and the audience score is DOUBLED at 81%.

My three stage roadmap for the DCEU is pretty simple:

1. Release an extended JL cut next year.
2. Focus on getting Aquaman right.
3. Nail down scripts and then film them without alterations.

Let's hope Affleck remains because he's damned good in the role. I suspect he may vacate after Flashpoint. JL kinda alludes to that as well. Bruce tells Diana he's too old for the superhero business. If that's the case, he'll pip Bale's record. Three films with a cameo in SS. That's a decent run for a live action Batman considering Kilmer and Clooney only did one each.

Offline The Laughing Fish

  • Gotham Citizen
  • Winged Avenger
  • ***
  • Forum posts: 2,223
  • Image uploads: 37
  • "But the fish share my unique face!"
    • View Profile
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 3 Dec 2017, 09:11 »
There's no parallel universe out there where Jett and his ilk will ever be on board with Snyder in any capacity. In fact, I remain skeptical that they even want Batman as a member of a larger DC universe.
The Texan (who had a falling out with two loyal staff members) is not a fan of shared universe Batman. My preference these days is shared universe Batman. That means he can still operate in Gotham separately from these other heroes, but they also exist. Batman can mingle with them if the story demands it. The League members make the WORLD richer and more expansive. I think that should be embraced.

I shudder to think that Jett has an influence on the fandom. Because if people really look up to him as some sort of authority...no wonder why the fandom is f***ed up.

You know, I was taking a look at people's Twitter feeds during the lead-up to JL, and Jett and his buddies such as Rick Shew would run some gossip and rumours about the film behind the scenes, and had the audacity to bully fans who dared to question them. Of course, they've often tried to defend themselves by projecting the fans are trolling them, but you have to wonder why would ostensibly grown-up men care so much if they're being set up to fail. I'm not at all impressed with their behaviour, but it's not surprising as I remember their gossip surrounding Snyder when he announced his leave from the production given his personal circumstances.

I never understood the complaints about Batman needing to work alone without other superheroes. If anything, it humanises him a bit, and it always allows him to think for solutions and plans to succeed. His plan to revive Superman back from the dead in JL is one example of this. And while his onslaught against the Parademons in Russia didn't quite work out as he would've hoped, the effort was there.

Look, at the end of the day the public enjoyed the movie.
The RT critic score is 41% - and the audience score is DOUBLED at 81%.

You can never understand the power that these bloody critics have on the public perception. I was watching a YouTube reviewer the other day who admitted he was nearly overwhelmed by the negative reception when watching JL for a second time, because he noticed the criticism over the CGI and the way some scenes were executed in the first ten minutes. But he kept watching the rest of the movie and remembered why he liked it so much: the characters and their chemistry together.

1. Release an extended JL cut next year.

I wouldn't be surprised if this eventually happens. The demand for it is just too strong.


Quote
Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Offline Travesty

  • Gotham Citizen
  • Side-Kick
  • ***
  • Forum posts: 280
    • View Profile
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 6 Dec 2017, 17:19 »
I saw this on SHH, with the caption below saying:

"Throwback to when Whedon did reshoots for The Dark Knight. Good times."


Offline The Laughing Fish

  • Gotham Citizen
  • Winged Avenger
  • ***
  • Forum posts: 2,223
  • Image uploads: 37
  • "But the fish share my unique face!"
    • View Profile
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 6 Dec 2017, 21:20 »
I saw this on SHH, with the caption below saying:

"Throwback to when Whedon did reshoots for The Dark Knight. Good times."



Yeah, but then again the fight scenes in that movie look even worse than action scenes in a low budget TV movie, so... :P


Quote
Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Offline The Dark Knight

  • Gotham Citizen
  • Dark Knight
  • ***
  • Forum posts: 5,755
  • Image uploads: 146
    • View Profile
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #47 on: Thu, 7 Dec 2017, 00:01 »
I saw this on SHH, with the caption below saying:

"Throwback to when Whedon did reshoots for The Dark Knight. Good times."





Spot on. I've been critical of Nolan but Whedon is far worse.

Offline riddler

  • Gotham Citizen
  • Dark Detective
  • ***
  • Forum posts: 1,216
  • Image uploads: 1
  • ?????????????????????????
    • View Profile
    • my forum
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #48 on: Sat, 9 Dec 2017, 16:29 »
If Whedon did reshoots on a Nolan Bat-film, maybe the fight scenes would look coherent and Batman wouldn't sound like a chain smoker. I wouldn't call myself a Whedon fan but he wasn't the one who decided to cut JL down to 2 hours, he was just the one who had to actually do it and slap his name on it.

Offline The Laughing Fish

  • Gotham Citizen
  • Winged Avenger
  • ***
  • Forum posts: 2,223
  • Image uploads: 37
  • "But the fish share my unique face!"
    • View Profile
Re: Justice League - ***SPOILER TALK***
« Reply #49 on: Sun, 10 Dec 2017, 01:47 »
If Whedon did reshoots on a Nolan Bat-film, maybe the fight scenes would look coherent and Batman wouldn't sound like a chain smoker. I wouldn't call myself a Whedon fan but he wasn't the one who decided to cut JL down to 2 hours, he was just the one who had to actually do it and slap his name on it.

That's very true. But I do think there are some moments that deserved some criticism, e.g. the shot of Aquaman diving into the water after speaking to Bruce Wayne for the first time did look poorly shot, or Batman leaving the criminal behind after being confronted by a Parademon. But there are moments where I didn't mind his input, such as choosing the cover of Leonard Cohen's Everybody Knows in the opening credits, or some banter and lines by the heroes.


Quote
Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

 

    
Not a member? Click here to register now!
Latest Forum Post
Re: Filmation Era - The Adventures of Batman (1968-1969)
by ObserveCreativeSoul
Total Members: 708 | Total Posts: 49,988 | Total Topics: 3,188

SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
Simple Audio Video Embedder
| Design based on the Reference theme by Crip XHTML RSS WAP2 iPhone Theme Scrolling News Ticker by Mioplanet
"BATMAN" all related characters indicia are copyrighted by D.C. COMICS, a TIME-WARNER company. Batman created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger.
All features, articles and blogs are © of Batman-Online.com's staff & members (unless otherwise indicated) and may NOT be copied without the author's permission. All artwork is © of respective owners.
This is NOT an official Batman website. Conceived, designed and edited by Paul Rodgers since 1st June 2002. Facebook and twitter feeds maintained by Rick Francis and Azrael.