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Author Topic: Men are still good  (Read 1050 times)

Offline Dagenspear

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 22:00 »
Called it!

But Harvey isn't Superman though. And things that aren't the exact, identical same obviously must be total opposites. Didn't you know?
I'm sorry, but it is literally not the same. The society wasn't divided against Harvey Dent. The city didn't unite under his death. It's pretty opposite. But things are said differently, because they're different. You have no argument here. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

Offline thecolorsblend

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 23:18 »
I'm sorry, but it is literally not the same. The society wasn't divided against Harvey Dent. The city didn't unite under his death.
Not the exact same! Must be total opposites!

Offline Dagenspear

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 9 Nov 2017, 02:08 »
Not the exact same! Must be total opposites!
But having a bare minimum of similarities makes it an appropriate comparison? That's a false equivalency.

Offline Travesty

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 12 Nov 2017, 18:34 »
I would like to say this.

I am deeply troubled by the thought that anybody would feel more sympathy for Harvey Dent, who got corrupted by the Joker and became an evil scumbag who tried to murder a child, than Superman, who refused to let Lex Luthor corrupt him and gave his life to protect the world from Doomsday. If that's the popular consensus, that's incredibly sad.

I know which character earns the title "hero".
Yeah, it's actually one of my biggest gripes about TDK. Batman went out of his way to cover up the crimes and deaths of a villain. The fact that Batman rather be seen as a villain, because he's more concerned with covering up what the real villain actually did, just never seemed right to me.

As for BvS, I thought the ending was very optimistic, too.

Offline The Dark Knight

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 00:33 »
Yeah, it's actually one of my biggest gripes about TDK. Batman went out of his way to cover up the crimes and deaths of a villain. The fact that Batman rather be seen as a villain, because he's more concerned with covering up what the real villain actually did, just never seemed right to me.

As for BvS, I thought the ending was very optimistic, too.
Exactly.

People forget this part about the DCEU Superman - there was probably always a sense of suspicion about him, much like General Swanwick's comments at the end of MOS. But after that film the promotional comics show Superman as a saviour of the people. He developed a good reputation. Newspaper cuttings on Wallace Keefe's wall depict some of these acts of heroism. I think one even had Superman lifting tectonic plates!

It's only after the Africa incident and the defacing of the statue does public sentiment turn. As Perry White ponders, "end of love affair with man in the sky?" And even then, opinion was split. This is physically shown during the Senate hearing. Outside we see protesters screaming their guts out AGAINST Superman, but we also see people FOR Superman. Superman is smiling and greeted with respect when he saves the child from the fire. What brings him down is the constant media chatter. That's why he retreats to the mountains for peace and quiet.

It's far more believable that a (trigger warning) global Jesus figure would be a point of contention or worship. Dent was just an up-and-coming politician, but we were meant to believe all of Gotham would lose hope if he was outed as a killer. That's nonsense. If someone who can save the world with his bare hands dies, that loss is going to be felt, even if you hated the guy. That's what makes more people coming over to the pro-Superman camp believable.

Superman was mourned for being who he WAS.
Dent was mourned for being who he WASN'T.

Big difference. Dent may have been good once, but that's irrelevant when you're covering up the juicy details. The context changers. Superman was a genuine source of inspiration and his message hasn't been corrupted, even though Lex/MSM tried to. The only revelation is that he didn't murder the villagers in Africa. He had nothing to do with the Senate bombing. He was always innocent. He's the one who is owed an apology.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 00:37 by The Dark Knight »

Offline Dagenspear

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 01:08 »
It's far more believable that a (trigger warning) global Jesus figure would be a point of contention or worship. Dent was just an up-and-coming politician, but we were meant to believe all of Gotham would lose hope if he was outed as a killer. That's nonsense. If someone who can save the world with his bare hands dies, that loss is going to be felt, even if you hated the guy. That's what makes more people coming over to the pro-Superman camp believable.
It absolutely is nonsense. And that's the point. The city won't and doesn't descend into chaos because of his criminality. Joker, Batman and Gordon are wrong. The movie is fair with how Dent's treated in his death. People don't unite under him. People don't love him who hated him. If society is divided, it will stay divided. That loss won't change anyone for Superman. That loss means no more than the massive amounts of death that happen to children every day that no one does anything about. That's cynical. That lives of many mean less than one, hero or not.
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Superman was mourned for being who he WAS.
Dent was mourned for being who he WASN'T.
He wasn't truly mourned at all. That's the thing about this attempt to twist TDKT into seeming like there's a similarity. No one united under Dent's death. Even Dent's heroism accomplished very little. That's the thing. That movies treated it for what it was. BvS doesn't. The only people who cared about Dent's death in TDKRises are the people using it for personal or political gain.
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Big difference. Dent may have been good once, but that's irrelevant when you're covering up the juicy details. The context changers. Superman was a genuine source of inspiration and his message hasn't been corrupted, even though Lex/MSM tried to. The only revelation is that he didn't murder the villagers in Africa. He had nothing to do with the Senate bombing. He was always innocent. He's the one who is owed an apology.
No. He wasn't responsible for it directly, but his fight with Zod did cause the Metropolis destruction and did kill people. And he doesn't care. That doesn't mean he should locked up. But he should be treated with hesitancy. Him being able to be manipulated by Lex and throwing a human being through a building showcases his lack innocence. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

Offline thecolorsblend

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 01:12 »
Not the exact same! Therefore totally opposite!

Offline Dagenspear

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 01:25 »
I would like to say this.

I am deeply troubled by the thought that anybody would feel more sympathy for Harvey Dent, who got corrupted by the Joker and became an evil scumbag who tried to murder a child, than Superman, who refused to let Lex Luthor corrupt him and gave his life to protect the world from Doomsday. If that's the popular consensus, that's incredibly sad.

I know which character earns the title "hero".
Harvey Dent isn't a hero. That's the point. Even after being lied about dying a hero, his death is only used politically. The people barely care.
Yeah, it's actually one of my biggest gripes about TDK. Batman went out of his way to cover up the crimes and deaths of a villain. The fact that Batman rather be seen as a villain, because he's more concerned with covering up what the real villain actually did, just never seemed right to me.
Good. The movies agree with you. It sits right with no one in the movies either.
Not the exact same! Therefore totally opposite!
Exact opposites in meaning, story and character. You use a false equivalency again, trying to troll me for no reason.

Offline The Laughing Fish

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 17 Dec 2017, 03:20 »
It's only after the Africa incident and the defacing of the statue does public sentiment turn. As Perry White ponders, "end of love affair with man in the sky?" And even then, opinion was split. This is physically shown during the Senate hearing. Outside we see protesters screaming their guts out AGAINST Superman, but we also see people FOR Superman. Superman is smiling and greeted with respect when he saves the child from the fire. What brings him down is the constant media chatter. That's why he retreats to the mountains for peace and quiet.

Superman was a genuine source of inspiration and his message hasn't been corrupted, even though Lex/MSM tried to. The only revelation is that he didn't murder the villagers in Africa. He had nothing to do with the Senate bombing. He was always innocent. He's the one who is owed an apology. 

The media loves to fuel speculation, which influences doubts on an unsuspecting public. When we see the news reporting on the Capitol bombing and Jenny reading her story at the Daily Planet in the Ultimate Edition, you hear speculation whether or not Superman was involved in the attack. You can never underestimate how the power of the press can manipulate people's emotions. Even more so when a paranoid and skeptical individual like Batman would feel his "1% chance" declaration is totally justified.

Critics would probably say Superman should've said something instead of flying away, but that still wouldn't have prevented the media from skewing public perception. In real life, sometimes when one finds themselves stuck in a predicament that's out of their control, they're either damned if they do, and damned if they don't.


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Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Offline thecolorsblend

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Re: Men are still good
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 17 Dec 2017, 03:46 »
Critics would probably say Superman should've said something instead of flying away, but that still wouldn't have prevented the media from skewing public perception. In real life, sometimes when one finds themselves stuck in a predicament that's out of their control, they're either damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Strange to think how all that was laid out on the table before #FakeNews ever became a meme.

 

    
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