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Author Topic: Proposed Superman II ending  (Read 732 times)

Offline The Dark Knight

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 23 Jan 2017, 22:33 »
He made the choice because he became selfish. He put his needs above humanity. That's enough for me. He also didn't foresee three escaped Kryptonians flying out of nowhere to terrorise the world. When it happened, he realised the magnitude of his mistake. He can't live a normal life. He now had to expect the unexpected.

I see Superman, Lois and the issue of children from two perspectives:

I like Superman and Lois UNABLE to have children because it adds another level of 'weakness' and mental burden upon the character. He loves Lois but he will never be able to fully complete the union.

I like Superman and Lois ABLE to have children because it strengthens their bond and like Rebirth, reinforces the friendly, nurturing side of the character.

I actually prefer the first option more, even though I really love Rebirth. I like the concept Superman and Lois can't have children. And in the future, after Lois' death, Superman and Wonder Woman have a child just like in Kingdom Come. There's something about that scenario which works for me.

Offline thecolorsblend

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 24 Jan 2017, 05:43 »
Grant Morrison split the difference between those two approaches with All-Star Superman by establishing that Superman and Lois aren't biologically compatible... but then a solution gets figured out and the story ends on a very hopeful but ambiguous note. I highly recommend checking out those two trades, they're awesome.

Offline The Dark Knight

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 24 Jan 2017, 06:37 »
All Star is probably my favorite Superman comic of all time.

It's so good because it's coated in doom but totally inspirational and selfless. It's where I prefer All Star over Kingdom Come, even if I can appreciate both stories for different reasons. In All Star, Superman knows he's dying but chooses to keep fighting and achieve miracles. Kingdom Come Superman abandons the superhero scene and chills in the Fortress for a decade. All Star has it all. It present Superman as the most powerful he has even been, but at the same time the most vulnerable he has ever been. It's genius.

This is my Superman comic collection as it stands.

I've read Rebirth online, but I'll pick up those paperbacks soon. I'm also keen to get both volumes of the Greatest Superman Stories Ever Told, of which What's So Funny About Truth Justice and the American Way? features.


Offline The Laughing Fish

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 14 Feb 2017, 04:43 »
I found a couple of YouTube videos explaining why Superman in the Reeve films was a moron. I got to admit, I laughed hard when the guy claimed Lois nearly died of hypoxia during the 'Can you read my mind?' scene.  ;D





Quote
Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Offline The Dark Knight

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 14 Feb 2017, 06:00 »
Some of my points against the video:

1. Superman giving Lois an interview

Superman is just too honest for his own good at times. That's one of his weaknesses. And that also doubles as a public service announcement for the younger generation. Don't lie. Tell the truth. Be good no matter what. I don't have a problem with that. It's not a lapse of judgement on his part at all. He knew what he was doing. The character is built on trust.

2. Taking Lois for a flight in her pyjamas

This stuff happens in the comics all the time. I don't see the big deal. It's nitpicking.

3. Throwing stuff into space

What did he want Superman to DO with the nuclear bomb? Throw it down on the ground and let it destroy Paris? And besides, how could Superman even know the Phantom Zone criminals were in space anyway? As for damaging the tower itself by flying straight up? That's just a pathetic complaint. Time is of the essence. If Superman didn't get the job done quick enough, he would've complained the bomb went off and destroyed the tower altogether. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Again, just more nitpicking.

4. Giving up his powers

I've defended this plot point recently so I won't devote much time to it. But I will add that Clark gave up his powers to be a man. To fully satisfy Lois. He became selfish and it cost him. I get people will either like this plot point or they won't. That's their business.

I won't bother addressing the Donner cut issues because I don't recognise that as *the* film. And a lot of the other issues in III and IV can be attributed to their budgets.

Offline thecolorsblend

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 15 Feb 2017, 09:20 »
The paradigm the Reeve movies operated under required Superman to be completely committed to being Superman or else being completely committed to other things. Superman, as an identity, isn't to be done halfway.

I find that argument persuasive given the iteration of Superman we're discussing here. The Byrne Age Superman viewed being Superman as more of a part time job so it's logical that someone who thinks of himself as Clark first and foremost would be more open to having a relationship.

Of course, with Superman II we're required to believe that Superman would forsake his powers just to get some lovin' from Lois. And I categorically reject that.

The time travel thing from STM has always bothered me too. Did the missile strike California? If so, Lois dies. Did Superman travel back in time to prevent the missile from striking California in the first place? If so, Lois was never in peril to begin with. Either of those leaves the movie a total mess.

Offline The Dark Knight

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 16 Feb 2017, 02:48 »
The time travel thing from STM has always bothered me too. Did the missile strike California? If so, Lois dies. Did Superman travel back in time to prevent the missile from striking California in the first place? If so, Lois was never in peril to begin with. Either of those leaves the movie a total mess.
The time travel finale is the film's biggest weakness, no doubt about it. I've never liked it. It's a lazy mess and opens up a can of worms. I much prefer the memory kiss in Superman II but that's hokey as well. Both of these scenes DO have grounding in the comics. But that doesn't mean they're infallible or above debate. I'm a fan of consequences remaining consequences...at least for a good while. And that's something Snyder has delivered.
Of course, with Superman II we're required to believe that Superman would forsake his powers just to get some lovin' from Lois. And I categorically reject that
That's cool and I do understand where you are coming from. I acknowledge the reasons behind his decision to forsake his powers are rather flimsy, but I enjoy the fallout which follows his decision. I'll take it. I'm primarily a Batman fan, and dismissed all the Superman films as mediocre for years. So it's interesting for me to defend them now. But really only the first two featuring Reeve and Cavill's run. I'm now holding onto anything that I deem remotely decent featuring the character. However, I'm also a little hesitant to shower the Reeve films with too much praise too - because they get enough fawning already, and in my opinion, at the detriment of the greater franchise.

Offline The Laughing Fish

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 16 Feb 2017, 06:10 »
There were some legit criticisms in those videos, but a lot of the examples were used as cheap shots, as TDK had already mentioned. Complaining about Jor-El and Lara should've left Krypton is something can easily apply against the mythos in every interpretation.

The ironic thing is, the narrator of those videos is a fan of the Snyder's Superman films, which had faced its share of nitpicking over the years. Mind you, those videos criticising the Reeve films were published in 2010, so he's definitely not retaliating against the critical backlash towards Snyder.


Quote
Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Offline The Laughing Fish

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 5 Mar 2017, 06:07 »
Another thing that bothered me about Superman II was during the fight against Zod and co in Metropolis, Superman notices the battle is putting the entire city in danger, so he flies away to spare further harm and lure the Phantom Zone villains back to the Fortress of Solitude. Fans love to say this was better than the fight in MOS, because Superman eventually saved people while fighting the villains and making them follow him afterwards.

To which I pose the question: if all it took for Superman to remove the danger out of the city by taking the fight elsewhere, then why the hell didn't he do that in the first place? If he had done that, none of the damage done to the city would've happened.


Quote
Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Offline The Dark Knight

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Re: Proposed Superman II ending
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 5 Mar 2017, 06:33 »
I'm inclined to believe Superman was willing to try his luck against the three villains, just to see how he'd fare. He was somewhat overconfident like that - case in point asking the rude diner to step outside while he was depowered. In both occasions it soon became apparent he wasn't going to beat his enemy. He had bitten off more than he could chew.

 

    
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