Daniel Waters discusses Batman Returns

[Andrew]

I think it's interesting that Batman, maybe from seeing the similarities between himself and the Penguin, quickly becomes suspicious of him (especially when even Alfred is fooled, he refers to the Penguin and heroic and doesn't understand why Batman is suspicious rather than welcoming). But agreed that making Batman initially sympathetic and then feeling betrayed would be a good way to make him more involved in the story and show more his compassionate/philanthropic side.

Catwoman does deliver the blow that finally outright eliminates Max but I think Batman still beats him pretty solidly, even in a way eliminates him or will do so, with the rescue-followed by-"You're going to jail." But him pleading with Selina to not kill him and failing as she does is an interesting way of having him fail.

I'm not sure how superhero films could make the hero more active rather than reactive in the story and especially climax without seeming a bit random/underwhelming and also make the hero seem overly aggressive.

[The Laughing Fish]

Anther aspect I believe gets missed is that Wayne appears to be the architect and engineer behind Batman and the tools he utilizes. Note when the Batmobile is returned after being hijacked by the Red Triangle Gang, it is Bruce Wayne in mechanic overalls working on the car. Alfred seems to remain in a butler capacity maintaining care of the suits and facility, but not coming across as the designer of these items as future films would take liberties in assigning to him.

I think Schumacher exaggerated Alfred's role to ridiculous proportions making him look like the chief brains of the entire outfit while the kids played dress up. In Burton's world, Bruce certainly seem to be the author of his alternate life and had to remind Alfred of his need to remain committed to his secret (even chastising him for letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave). I think this point is relevant to the overall character of Bruce Wayne, because if he had to be co-dependent on others in the creation process, then he likely wouldn't be much of a detective to resolve more complex matters.

Alfred designed Robin's suit, but if I recall, the sonar suit was a prototype containing features invented by Bruce himself. I can't remember whether or not Alfred had a hand in designing the other Batsuit in BF.

Nonetheless, I totally get your point. I too prefer Batman to be more independent in his own creation. After all, it plays with the idea that he would spend his whole life dedicating to fighting crime by training himself training himself physically and mentally - in a wide variety of skills, to become the best he could be. With that being said, that's not to say he can't have any help. In the comics, he had assistants like Oracle and Harold Allnut to fulfill certain expertise, i.e. computer hacking and inventing new gadgets. But the difference is Batman is still his own man and carries out the investigations, and outsmart the villains.

In the Burton films, Alfred was not only a butler, he was an assistant too. In B89, Bruce depended on Alfred to retrieve police files on Jack Napier and his parents' murders, and in BR, he used Batman's radio signal to divert the kamikaze penguins back to the Arctic World theme park. It can be said that Batman relied on sidekicks even before Robin entered the picture. And although Alfred's contributions were important, they didn't necessarily undermine Batman's ability to crack the case for himself.

So what about in BF? Putting any bias aside for a moment, it made sense for the story to have Alfred design the Robinsuit because Bruce initially wasn't keen on having Dick as a partner. I saw that as Alfred serving as a mediator between the two, and this contribution convinced Batman that he does need support to stop Riddler and Two-Face. Besides, it's economical plotwise because Bruce himself had to recover from his injury and amnesia inflicted by Two-Face.

Once again, I agree that Batman should be independent, but some help doesn't hurt sometimes. It only becomes a problem if Batman relies on somebody too heavily for the costumes, the gadgets, the vehicles, the problem solving and even the detective work. When it gets to that, it only makes Batman less of the World's Greatest Detective as we know and love, and more of a costumed James Bond clone. Which isn't who he is.

[thecolorsblend]

Alfred created encryption so effective that I doubt even the NSA could've hacked it. Then again, his password consisted of three letters and howsecureismypassword.net assures me that it would've been cracked in 400 nanoseconds. So maybe that's a wash.

Also, Alfred created his own interactive AI, and in his own image. Either of those is enough to place him far ahead of Microsoft's techs. If you don't believe me, Google what happened with Microsoft's Tay becoming a Nazi just a few hours after going online, it's hilarious.

Alfred not only has the ability to design and build two different suits for Batgirl but he's also capable of imparting that knowledge to the Alfred AI. Which is another leg-up that AI Alfred has over Microsoft's AI.

Overall, Alfred was pretty sharp for such an old-timer.