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Author Topic: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi  (Read 5229 times)

Offline The Joker

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 28 Dec 2017, 02:32 »
REVIEW

Hereís the thing about this movie. It has little to no interest in following up on any of the questions introduced by Abrams in TFA. Whoís Snoke? Doesnít matter. Whoís Reyís parents? Nobody. How did Maz get Lukeís lightsabre? Why did R2D2 magically reawaken? Why did Luke hide a map inside R2 if he didn't want to be found? Who knows and who cares. The films mantra seems to be ďlet the past dieĒ, which numerous characters state throughout the entire movie. Problem is, each time the film presents an opportunity to do so, it undercuts itself and reverts right back to status quo of Episode IV. TFA had the possibility that maybe there was different relationships between the intergalactic factions within the SW universe and such, but nope.

One of the reasons why I found TFA enjoyable despite the story line not being my PREFERRED route to take, at least introduced a shroud of mystery that left many speculating about the future direction of the story. What was Rey's lightsaber vision all about? What's up with Luke going into hiding? Who are Rey's parents? Who's Snoke? How did the First Order come into power?

TLJ could care less about any and all of these set ups and questions. Rather, the humor is incredibly amped up, in a Disney-owned Marvel kinda way, and literally opens up with a prank call and a your mom joke...

Needless to say, the humour didnít hit very often for me, and I thought it was badly incorporated into the script. Itís like the writer was contractually obliged to continue the MCU formula and include a joke every five minutes, on the minute. With many of them being poorly timed, mostly falling flat, but also often undercutting the weight of scenes. There are big moments that should feel weighty and tense, but the script keeps letting the air out with site-gags and misplaced observational humour; not to mention the ultra-cheesy attempts at fist-pumping one-liners that are one step away from ďthatís gottaí hurtĒ.

Obviously, I think the script was pretty abysmal. The plot felt like one of those corpse exercises, where someone writes a chunk and then passes it onto someone else. I donít mean that the script was re-written, I mean that things that happened earlier in the script didnít seem to have much bearing on things that happen later, sometimes even immediately afterwards.

The worst sin the film commits, in direct contradiction of itís message, is it basically ends up in more or less the same place it began. Sure, Luke and Snoke are gone, but they had little screen time and significance in the start of the sequel trilogy (TFA) to begin with. Rey is still on the light side, Ben is still conflicted and on the dark side, Rey & Finnís relationship didnít move an inch, we still donít know jack about who Snoke was, The First Order still has the upper hand like in the beginning of TFA, and Luke never even left the island.

And please correct me if Iím wrong, but I canít think of a single character in this movie who really achieves their actual intended goal. Kylo wants to turn Rey, Rey wants to turn Kylo, neither succeed. Poe wants to stage a mutiny, fails. Finn and Rose want to find the master codebreaker, fails. (Iím not going to get into plot holes, leaps of logic, and how pointless and uninteresting Finn and Roseís side quest was.) Then they want to sabotage the ships tracking device, fail at that as well. Then they want destroy the battering ram machine, fail at that. Snoke wants to kill Rey, but gets himself killed. Phasma wants to kill Finn, dies (again) trying. Leia wants to save the Resistance, but by the end thereís so few left they can all fit on the Falcon, so, yeah, I wouldn't call that a big win. Hux wants to wipe out the last of the Resistance, they get away. I guess Lukeís goal to delay the First Order works, so thatís something ... right? But this whole trilogy beginning is essentially boiled down to a result of Luke uncharacteristically wanting to kill his sister's son.

Regarding the last shot of the movieÖ The movie insists the events on Crait will somehow have a ripple effect across the universe. Luke even says ďThe Rebellion is reborn today.Ē Poe also has a line about being the spark that will light the fire which will bring the First Order down. Can someone clarify how anything that happened was supposed to inspire hope? I mean, should that not have happened at the end of TFA when the First Orderís mega weapon was destroyed? How is having the Resistance dwindled down to under 100 people after all their allies refused to show up supposed to inspire hope?

To the characters:

LUKE: What we see with Luke in The Last Jedi is a complete regression of his character back to, again, the status quo of Episode IV ANH. Complete with milk. This is not merely being jaded, he's gone to simply not caring about anything or anyone, and being determined to wanting to eradicate the Jedi Order itself from existence...

I mean, the sort of behavior you're seeing from Luke is the sort of behavior you'd expect out of a petulant kid. And in particular petulance without purpose.

When Yoda deceived Luke about his identity, it wasn't out of genuine distrust or not actually wanting to teach him, it was for the purpose of testing him. The stereotypical grumpy "master" who won't teach the student is a stereotype for a reason: it works. Training just anyone how to use the force isn't a smart notion to take, and it's another way to find out if that person will actually commit to it. Yoda does have a moment of despair when Luke proves impatient, but on balance, and given the galaxy's immense need, he agrees to train Luke - and does so in earnest.

Compare that with Luke's approach in TLJ: he agrees to teach Rey three lessons only for the purpose of convincing her NOT to be a Jedi.

But as said, this irrational fear of the stereotype caused Disney to wipe out Luke's character development. The criticism Yoda had of Luke was: "All his life has he looked away, to the future, to the horizon, never his mind on where he was, what he was doing!" This character flaw was exactly what Luke overcame in ROTJ: when confronted with the vision of ruling the galaxy by the Emperor's side and killing his hated father, Luke sees that part of him in his (mechanical) right hand, throws his lightsaber away, and says he will never turn to the Dark Side. That was effectively the climax of the film, the end of his character arc, what made him a mature hero and why he could see Obi-Wan, Yoda, and his father at the end of the film: because he was seeing the world the same way they did.

Consider the other lesson Yoda had him internalize: "Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."

What we have at the end of ROTJ is a character whose character flaws have been burned away by fire, whose fear is extinguished, who will see the Jedi way through no matter the personal cost. This growth was further expanded upon in the now non-canon EU of Star Wars lore.

Half the point of the training with the Force is implied as the spiritual growth it enables. The first exercise Luke throws at Rey is to ask her to sense the inherent balance in all things. These are calmative forces: discernment of the Light Side from the Dark is found when one is calm, at peace, passive, per Yoda himself.

In yet another "twist" this film hollowly incorporates in abundance, Luke suddenly regresses to the point of absurdedy: presumptuous about his right to end the Jedi Order, doesn't give a damn about stuff happening in the wider galaxy, distrustful of people who want to learn, (supposedly) never reading any of the texts his order handed down to him over a thousand years.

I get what they were trying to do with the character, that Luke is broken,  despite that the galaxy continues to view him as a legend and basically a galactic John Wayne who will come in and save the day. In theory I can be down for that, but I think the execution isn't done particularly well. At all.

Luke. as a character, was the guy who saw good and conflict in his mass murdering father, Darth Vader, of all people... NOW we're fed the notion that he thought about killing his nephew because he simply saw a growing darkness in him? Without Ben (presumably) having done anything terrible yet? Essentially, having absolutely zero faith in his nephew, and effectively bringing about the destruction of his Jedi academy. And then, instead of trying to make a course correction, he cuts himself off from the Force and hides, not caring about what happens to his sister or best friends (all of whom were the most important thing for him during the Original Trilogy) .....

Sorry, that doesn't jive with the Luke we know .

Luke is better than this.

I've read some comments on the internets of people comparing Luke in TLJ and Obi Wan in ANH, but ultimately such comparisons make Luke even worse by how he's written in TLJ.

In Episode IV, Obi-Wan was a character that witnessed the near total annihilation of his fellow Jedi Knights, even younglings, the failure of himself to steer his Padawan from the Dark Side (who then ends up murdering and/or being complicit in untold thousands of people), a Sith Lord taking control of the Republic and the whole galaxy being turned upside down around him. With Episode VIII, we get the story that Luke has been dealing with the destruction of his Jedi school and his failure to steer Kylo from the Dark Side. Hell, he didn't even know about Han yet. Yet it goes like this:

Episode IV...

Leia: "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're our only hope!"

Obi-Wan: "OK, cool. Let's go."


Episode VIII...

Rey: "Help me, Luke, you're our only hope!"

Luke: "NO! And I'm NEVER LEAVING this island!"


 To me, Obi-Wan should have been in a lower place than Luke, yet he was ready to rush into the fray without question. Thanks Disney. It's no wonder Hamill stated that he thought of this guy as "Jake" Skywalker rather than Luke.

In the end, Mark Hamill was great in this movie in spite of what Rian Johnson gave him. A nobel attempt to make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t.


REY: The incredible lack of any explanation about this character is absolutely stunning. If she truly turns out to be just a "nobody", then that's a blatant middle finger to TFA and all her displays of proficiency with the force. There had to be something else going on there, there had to.

If TFA had had her super painfully pick up that lightsaber, then getting her ass handed to her by Kylo, then her parents being nobodies would work fine. We can have a nice arc with her learning the Force and how to be a Jedi Knight. Unfortunately, all the set up from TFA was set up in such a way that there had to be more to her than just "random person, random parents," unless everything we've known about Star Wars is out the window. Which, evidently, seems to be the case now with Disney's Star Wars, as the force is essentially now just a x-gene superpower that random people can do. See the kid at the end with the broomstick. I literally thought I was seeing things when that happened. It's like a brand new universe where nothing is learned or actually taught. The force is super power mutant x gene. It's easy. You don't have to earn it.

Even putting aside the prequels and everything that taught us about "You need to start your training when you're like 5 or you're not gonna be sh**!" and all, Luke in ESB had way more trouble than Rey in drawing that same lightsaber to him, and that was even AFTER some lessons by a Jedi Master. Let alone winning lightsaber fights by people with zero training off the bat. It's stuff like this that really begged the question on just who she is? A Skywalker? A Kenobi? A Palpatine? A female clone of any of the aforementioned? Is she essentially X-Men's Rogue in Star Wars? Drawing the force from other powerful force users? Which would explain a few things and atleast attempt to be kinda different. Nope. None of the above. She's just Supergirl and doesn't need anything cause, well ... she's perfect?

At one point, I was hopeful that there was going to be a worthwhile twist with actual substance. That twist being Rey and Ben teaming up to form a new order separate from the Resistance and First Order? Bold choice! Iím on boar-oh, waitÖ Reyís back with the Resistance and Kyloís commanding the First Order.

Awesome.


KYLO REN: Kylo resists killing off Leia only to have his storm troopers deliver the killing blow instead, forever haunting him if he could have done something? Bold choice! Iím on boar-oh, waitÖ Nope, there she goes, Mary Poppinsing her way to safety. Yay. I can only imagine all the comedy that's going to transpire within the First Order with Kylo at the helm now. Considering his scenes with Hux and all the temper tantrums, it's just too enticing for Disney not to rack up on silliness in the next one.


LEIA: Considering the real life death of Carrie Fisher, did anyone else feel that Leia should have been the one to stay on the ship to lightspeed kamikaze the First Order? It even felt perfectly set up for it when she says ďI canít take another loss.Ē Then moving forward you can have Vice Admiral Holdo in place trying to live up to Leiaís legacy. This would also line up with the ďlet the past dieĒ mantra the film so very much wants us to embrace. What we get instead is Leia gliding thru space that very much feels like a "jumping the shark" kinda moment. I suppose the ideal payoff for such a scene was Leia's expanded role in Episode 9, where I would imagine she would display even more force abilities, but obviously that's no longer going to be the case. Atleast this checked the "Leia gets to demonstrate a force power" box, so .. yay?


SNOKE: We heard Supreme Leader, Supreme Leader, Supreme Leader all through TFA and even Han warns Kylo/Ben how Snoke will kill him soon. Snoke's a badass neo-Imperial revolutionary who deviously orchestrates the destruction of an entire system of planets and the Republic government and Senate, the result of years of rebuilding the shattered Empire in the shadows. As the mastermind of this revival, Snoke was taking the First Order well beyond the complacency and gluttonous mass of its predecessor....

Well, so much for intrigue.

At least the death of Palpatine was believable. This crap in the TLJ was not.

Horrendous waste of what was meant to be an awesome, formidable character. Snoke deserved a lot better, given the mystery of the character, and well .. basically being the evil mastermind in the shadows that got this Disney sequel trilogy in motion.


FINN: Finn should have died. Flat out. That actually would have been amazing if Rian pulled the trigger like that. Unfortunately, he didn't have the balls. What we have instead is Rose, being an absolute idiot, crashing into Finn's ship, calling him an idiot (despite Holdo doing the SAME EXTACT THING with the light speed jump and being heraled as a hero) and parroting off some of the most cringe worthy SJW nonsense that literally had me rolling me eyes. "We don't kill the one's we hate, we save the one's we love!" ... Are you f'n kidding me with this crap? Who in their right mind would say that in a actual WAR?!? This is still Star WARS, correct? God almighty! Luckily for her, Luke shows up to distract, and Rey in her unexplained omnipotence, can lift heavy bolder rocks, cause otherwise, her goofiness would have assuredly sealed the fate or the rebels right then and there. SAD!

Another thing that annoyed me about Finn and Rose (a character that's introduced as a mechanic, but ends up a pilot because.... reasons) was basically they didn't do ANYTHING USEFUL AT ALL. it was just filler for 40 minutes. Killing off Finn would have been a bold choice. Iím on boar-oh, waitÖ Nope, Rose took that choice away from him. Everyone survives. Yay.


YODA: Yoda burns down the remains of the Jedi temple, cementing the end of the Jedi and ushering in a new age? Bold choice! I'm on boar-oh, wait... Rey took the books with her. Coach Yoda's burning f***ing trees and saying that failure is an important teacher. Problem being that it skips the other half of the formula: a mindset of constant improvement and dedication to being a lifelong learner, and a mindset of pushing one's limits harder and harder. *sigh*

 I really wish I could have enjoyed Yoda's appearance more than I did, since I was really anticipating him showing up at some point, but the fact that he came across more like the comical Yoda that Luke initially meets on Dagobah, and not the wise Jedi Yoda that he later reveals himself to be, was a unfortunate mistake I think. I was honestly hoping for Yoda's scene to have more gravitas in how it played out. Not MCU Yoda.

In closing, TLJ is the film that detractors have been waiting for ever since George decided to sell to Disney some years back. The devisivness wasn't there right out of the gate for TFA, and damn sure wasn't there for Rogue One (still the best to come out of the Disney controlled material, and this includes the Rebels tv show), but it's now here and I'm sure we'll hear crying about childhoods being ruined, just as we did during the prequel trilogy over 15 years ago. Has it ever stopped? I'm happy for those who got something out of this, and would be curious as to how it holds up for those who do upon repeated viewings, but it just wasn't for me. At this stage, spin off stories like Rogue One or Kenobi (jury is still out on Solo) are holding my interest alot more than Episode 9. Oh, and the SW expanded universe/legends stuff. I suddenly feel the need to catch up on alot of that.

* On a side note, I am finding the debate about Rotton Tomatoes' scoring to be mildly entertaining. Only due to the discrepancy in scores between critics and the audience for this movie in relation to DCEU movies is fascinating to me. It's almost like these aren't even real people giving out scores.


"Imagination is a quality given a man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humour was provided to console him for what he is."

Offline The Laughing Fish

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 28 Dec 2017, 03:29 »
Great review Joker!



Quote
Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Offline Catwoman

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #62 on: Thu, 28 Dec 2017, 13:06 »
Of course nobody read mine *pout*

But yes that was very good Joker. I had to giggle when you were talking about Snoke cause it reminded me of two years ago when I PM'd you a couple weeks after the movie had been out asking if you could make some GIFs for me for someone who shall remain nameless. You said sure, then something like "What is thy bidding, Supreme Leader Kitty Snoke?" And I went OFF, threatened something like giving you a colonoscopy with Kylo Ren's lightsaber if you ever compared me to that ugly creepy dude again. The name was cute (adding Kitty to anything has that effect) but ughhhhh. lol

Online Travesty

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 29 Dec 2017, 07:17 »
I wasn't totally convinced by Luke's backstory with Kylo Ren. On one hand, it's kinda interesting that he's traumatised by how the Dark Side corrupts, and that's why he contemplated killing Kylo Ren. But then again, this is the same man who rightly believed Darth Vader, his own diabolical father, could be redeemed! It is one of the many things about TLJ that doesn't sit well with me.
Bingo. It makes absolutely no sense to me. The entire Original Trilogy tells us that Luke will bend over backwards to not kill Sith, as that would bring him closer to the Dark Side. He goes out of his way to not kill his father, cause he sees a glimmer of good in him. Darth Vader is supposed to be evil. So lets say he's 99% evil, and Luke sees that 1% good. That's supposed to be enough for Luke to be able do as much as he can to bring him back to the light side. Now fast forward to TLJ, and it's the complete opposite. When it comes to Ben Solo, he sees 1% darkness, and he somehow has impulses to kill him immediately. lolwut? That goes completely contrary to what we saw before.

« Last Edit: Fri, 29 Dec 2017, 16:31 by Travesty »

Offline Silver Nemesis

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #64 on: Tue, 9 Jan 2018, 17:31 »
I saw this again with my brother yesterday (he didnít like it), and Iíve now had several weeks to weigh its strengths and weaknesses. I think I enjoyed it slightly more on second viewing because I knew what was coming, but I still have a lot of issues with it. I want to like it, but it just has too many flaws. Iíve read the other reviews in this thread and mostly agree with the points being made. Now Iíd like to add some more thoughts on the subject. I wonít bother marking SPOILERS in white because I think everyoneís seen it by now. But in case you havenít, SPOILERS ahead.

I hate the egalitarian re-conceptualisation of the Force in this trilogy. Now anyone can be a Jedi. No one has to train. No discipline is required. Thereís no good, thereís no evil; itís all relative. The morality play element from the older films has now gone out the window. Burn the sacred texts. Forget the heroes of the past; thereís nothing special about them, so let them die (but weíll still market these new movies based on nostalgia, because thatís all theyíve got going for them). It seems Force powers now work differently as well. If Force ghosts can conjure lightning, why didnít Qui-Gon, Ben or Yoda do this to knock out Vaderís life support systems during the two decades when he was terrorising the galaxy? If Luke can astral project not only himself, but also tangible objects Ė as evidenced by the dice he gave Leia Ė then why not simply project himself behind Kylo Ren and manifest a weapon to kill him with?

The Last Jedi has also more or less rendered the political occurrences of Episodes V-VII obsolete. The repetitive/cyclical nature of the storytelling in this new trilogy has brought us right back to where we were at the beginning of Episode IV: Leia is leading a small band of rebels as they are pursued by the evil Empire, which is led by a dark Jedi bred of the Skywalker bloodline. Did the destruction of either Death Star in the OT have any significant impact on the present? Did the destruction of Starkiller Base have any meaningful consequences? If so, why werenít those consequences shown in The Last Jedi? Did Anakin bringing balance to the Force have any long-lasting impact? If so, why are there still Sith/dark Jedi like Snoke around? Is Anakinís role as the Chosen One now obsolete? Whatís happening in the rest of the galaxy while these two diminishing factions are chasing each other? Whatís at stake here? Does the First Order want to rule the galaxy? If so, why arenít they trying to establish a new government following the destruction of the Republic capital? Why are they wasting time and committing all of their resources to chasing a small group of rebels through space? Neither of these factions made any attempt to establish a new system of government in The Last Jedi. Neither of them seems to have an objective beyond destroying the other. They exist solely to fight. Itís been over thirty years since the events of Episode VI, and yet the Galactic Civil War is still chugging along exactly as it was in A New Hope. The only difference between then and now is that a lot of people have died and some planets been destroyed during the interim. And for what?

Isaac Asimovís Foundation series provides the perfect template for a science fiction epic set in a post-Imperial galaxy. The plot of those books begins with a psychohistorian analysing various social, political and economic factors in the present in order to extrapolate future events with prescient accuracy. He predicts the Galactic Empire will collapse in the next three centuries, and that following its demise will be thirty thousand years of barbaric feudalism before the second great Galactic Empire eventually rises. In anticipation of this, he establishes the Foundation Ė a group based on the peripheral world of Terminus, charged with preserving and advancing scientific knowledge in order to guide humanity through the anarchy of post-Imperial chaos and precipitate the rise of the second Galactic Empire.

This is exactly what the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy should have been. The Empire collapses and the galaxy degenerates into feudalism. The tyranny of the Emperor vanishes, but with it go all the benefits of Imperial rule. Trade, science and law. The pax imperialis (relatively speaking). Trade routes become compromised. The galactic common market crumbles. Lawlessness spreads, beginning on the Outer Rim planets and gradually spreading to the Core worlds. Soon various warlords emerge to claim control over different parts of the galaxy. Feudalism reigns. The new Jedi order established by Luke should have played the same role the Foundation did in Asimovís books: a faction committed to steering the various planetary civilisations towards peaceful coexistence, while at the same time combating those feudal lords whoíd oppose such an ideal.

Say what you will about the Prequel Trilogy, but at least Lucas gave us a different conflict with the Clone Wars. He effectively inverted the dynamic from the OT by having the villains represent anti-establishmentarianism and the heroes fighting to maintain the bureaucratic officialdom. In the PT we have the Clone Wars, with the corrupt Galactic Republic battling the Confederacy of Independent Systems. In the OT we have the Galactic Civil War, with the Galactic Empire battling the Rebel Alliance. In the ST we should have had the Galactic Feudal War, with five or six main factions vying for dominance while the Jedi fight to maintain order. Instead we got a rehash/continuation of the Galactic Civil War. What a waste of an opportunity.

These new films also donít feel as epic in scale to me as the earlier entries in the saga. The OT took place across a span of around 4 years. The PT took place over around 13 years. So far the events depicted in the new trilogy have spanned, what, two or three weeks? The world building aspect is also falling flat for me, as none of the new worlds theyíve introduced have been as interesting or well developed as Tatooine, Endor, Coruscant or Naboo.

I particularly disliked the casino planet in The Last Jedi. Visually it felt too closely patterned on Monte Carlo and the clothing of the denizens was just Tellurian eveningwear with the collars removed. The CG gnome creatures looked like rejects from Gringotts Bank, and the evil-capitalists-vs.-downtrodden-orphans dynamic was straight out of a Sergei Eisenstein Soviet propaganda film. The special effects in the horse riding sequence verged on Prequel Trilogy bad, and I didnít think there was any substantial suspense or drama during that entire section of the film. The subplot about the horses, along with the scene of Chewbacca refusing to eat the Porg, seemed to be advancing some sort of animal rights/PETA agenda that felt very out of place in a Star Wars movie. I wish the whole excursion to that planet had been omitted. But I suspect it was included as a plug for Johnsonís upcoming trilogy. Though in light of The Last Jediís mixed fan reception, the reality of that trilogy may now be in question.

The jaunt to the casino planet, like the equally pointless mutiny subplot, are both superfluous to the central narrative. And both subplots could have been avoided entirely, if Laura Dernís character had simply answered Poeís question when he asked her what the plan was. Why did she withhold that important information? Thereís this weird trend in the recent Star Wars movies where every time a prominent male character meets a prominent female character for the first time, the latter has to emasculate the former in order to establish her dominance (e.g. Rey beating up Finn in Episode VII, Rose tasering Finn in Episode VIII, Dern humiliating Poe in front of the bridge crew). If theyíd only subverted this trend in The Last Jedi, we might have been spared some truly awful subplots.

Regarding the characterisation of Luke, I had mixed feelings after my first viewing. After my second viewing, Iíve shifted my position into the negative camp. I initially defended the flashback scenes by reasoning that Luke reflexively ignited his sabre due to the shock of sensing the Dark Side. But after seeing the film again, he clearly contemplates murdering his sleeping nephew and holds onto that thought for several seconds. Even if the impulse was fleeting, itís enough to contradict the established characterisation of Luke Ė the galaxyís Ďhopeí Ė as an optimist who was willing to stand there and let the Emperor kill him rather than take Vaderís life. Luke may be the only Jedi in the Star Wars saga who got less wise and more selfish with age. It now seems like he peaked in Return of the Jedi. Iíve seen some people cite Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT to justify Lukeís behaviour, but I donít find the two scenarios comparable. In Revenge of the Sith Yoda clearly says, ďUntil the time is right, disappear, we will.Ē He always intended to resume the battle. And Obi-Wan spent his seclusion watching over Luke. Luke, on the other hand, just gave up. He went into hiding so he could die, and when given the opportunity to put things right, he chose not to.

I canít help comparing the situation to The Dark Knight Returns. I could have accepted Luke turning into a dick if it was some kind of midlife crisis and if heíd then readopted his classic characterisation later on. But instead he just astral projects for a few minutes and dies from exhaustion. That would be like if Bruce Wayne spent the whole of TDKR hiding in the Batcave, ignored Gordonís appeals for help, then sent the Batmobile out by remote control to tease a final confrontation with the Joker, only to die from exhaustion the instant the Joker realised the car is empty. Itís a pathetic send-off for one of the most beloved characters in modern cinema, and all for the sake of subverting audience expectations.

Oh well. At least Christopher Blair is still a badass.

Regardless of any attempts at subversion, the film remains a rehash of the OT. The throne room scene is almost identical to the throne room sequence in Episode VI. Youíve got the villain sitting in his chair taunting the hero as he/she watches the rebel fleet being destroyed outside, then the hero summoning their lightsaber with the Force, the fight scene, and the villain being betrayed and killed by his apprentice. The things that were bold and different in The Last Jedi (the characterisation of Luke, the conceptualisation of the Force) should have been more consistent with established canon, and the things that were recycled (the plot, set pieces and character dynamics) should have been bold and different. Johnson did a decent job directing, but his script was horribly ill judged IMO.

William Goldman once wrote of the filmmaking process: ďIf you had gotten the script to work and cast it properly, then you had a chance for something of quality. But if you had not, it didnít matter how skilful the rest of the process was; you were dead in the water [...] Remember this: shooting is just the factory putting together the car.Ē Needless to say heís right. You get the script as close to perfect as humanly possible, then you proceed with filming. There are rare instances of poorly conceived movies being salvaged in postproduction, but as a rule filmmakers shouldnít place themselves in a position where they have to do that. They should resolve any issues of plot, structure, pacing and characterisation during the scripting phase. That way they donít have to second guess themselves halfway through production as Rian Johnson and J J Abrams are currently having to do with this trilogy.

Trilogies are tricky things. On the one hand you have something like Kieslowskiís Three Colours trilogy, which is not a narrative trilogy in the conventional sense. Besides a few cameos, the connective tissue linking Blue, White and Red is largely thematic. So there was no need to write all three stories before producing the first of them. Thatís not the case when youíre making a narrative trilogy such as The Lord of the Rings series. Then you need some kind of idea of the direction in which things are heading. You canít just write the opening act, fill it with unanswered questions (a la Abramsí patented Ďmagic boxí strategy), and then make the rest up as you go along. But thatís precisely what theyíve done with this new Star Wars trilogy. Itís such an elementary mistake in their approach, Iím astonished they made it.

There are actually quite a few things I like about The Last Jedi, but I really donít feel like discussing them. Sadly itís the negatives that preoccupy my mind. Iíve tried getting on board with the new Disney canon. Iíve read several of the new novels, I've collected numerous volumes of the comics (the Shattered Empire, Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader series), and Iíve got the first two seasons of Rebels on DVD. But overall, Iím just not digging the creatively bankrupt direction the franchise is heading in. I weathered the PT era, and Iíll always love the OT. But right now, I feel like maybe Iím done with Star Wars. The sad thing is that I was really looking forward to The Last Jedi. So was my brother. So were a lot of the people whoíve posted disappointing reviews in this thread. Are we all outgrowing Star Wars, or is Star Wars burning itself out?

Offline The Dark Knight

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #65 on: Tue, 9 Jan 2018, 19:00 »
Where the hell do I start?

Iíve been hammering everyone around me for the past month about TLJ. Thereís so much to discuss and honestly, I canít really be bothered discussing it all over again, this time on BO. Thereís so much I shake my head at with how people interpret things. This is a fantastic movie and the Ďfansí are ignorant buffoons who simply donít get it. Period. They speak through an overly emotional lens which disconnects them from reason. This is a film up there with Dawn of Justice, but this time, the critics actually see the greatness. I have ammunition ready to fire but right now I canít be bothered.

Give me a week or two and youíll see something in depth.

Offline The Laughing Fish

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 10 Jan 2018, 11:44 »
This is a film up there with Dawn of Justice, but this time, the critics actually see the greatness.

Let's get real about one thing though: critics are full of sh*t. Especially nowadays, when people associated in the entertainment industry love to make everything heavily politicised. That, and they're nothing but a bunch of holier-than-thou, know-it-all douchebags. I've heard of some critics giving Last Jedi a pass because they feature women in prominent roles. FFS, why do these people need to make a cheap political point? Who cares if the character is a man, woman, Asian, white, Pomeranian dog or whatever, are they good characters and serve the story or not? I've ignored the naysayers' accusations of Disney Star Wars using SJW feminist propaganda, but I think they might have a point in Last Jedi.

Mixed emotions with Rey and the "answers" we got in this movie. The scene in the cave was interesting but when she reveals she knew her parents were nobody it's like "Ooooook what was the f***ing point of the cave scene other than to draw this out as far as possible?" I enjoyed her otherwise, I know some people hate the idea of a girl being the galaxy's new savior but, eh, I'm ok with it....

As I just mentioned, I was never that bothered about Rey's introduction in TFA. Sure, I can understand that she was a bit too powerful, but I always found her abilities a little raw. And let's face it, it's not like Luke was a little bit unstoppable either. I watched A New Hope for the first time in years, and I was taken aback a bit by how great of a fighter pilot he is despite little to no training. Yes, the film established that he had some skills in aviation, but there's a difference between flying a simple ship to pick errands to flying in space in a fighter jet to fight the Empire. Just a little food for thought.

But Rey in this movie, just like most of the characters in TLJ, felt as if they were going through the motions. I think the only character who made any progress was Kylo Ren.


Quote
Jonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Offline The Joker

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #67 on: Fri, 12 Jan 2018, 05:29 »

Great review Joker!

Thanks!  8)

Of course nobody read mine *pout*

But yes that was very good Joker. I had to giggle when you were talking about Snoke cause it reminded me of two years ago when I PM'd you a couple weeks after the movie had been out asking if you could make some GIFs for me for someone who shall remain nameless. You said sure, then something like "What is thy bidding, Supreme Leader Kitty Snoke?" And I went OFF, threatened something like giving you a colonoscopy with Kylo Ren's lightsaber if you ever compared me to that ugly creepy dude again. The name was cute (adding Kitty to anything has that effect) but ughhhhh. lol

Ha! Yeah, I remember that. The sadomasochistic threat was enough for me to leave you alone. I didn't want to start having nightmares of you (or what my mental image of you is) with a grill on your teeth, and telling me, "This is going to hurt, really, really bad!", while eerily coming towards me in the dark of night with a huge pair of scissors (or Kylo Ren's lightsaber) like a scene from The Big Lebowski.


"Imagination is a quality given a man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humour was provided to console him for what he is."

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #68 on: Sat, 13 Jan 2018, 21:57 »
Of course nobody read mine *pout*

But yes that was very good Joker. I had to giggle when you were talking about Snoke cause it reminded me of two years ago when I PM'd you a couple weeks after the movie had been out asking if you could make some GIFs for me for someone who shall remain nameless. You said sure, then something like "What is thy bidding, Supreme Leader Kitty Snoke?" And I went OFF, threatened something like giving you a colonoscopy with Kylo Ren's lightsaber if you ever compared me to that ugly creepy dude again. The name was cute (adding Kitty to anything has that effect) but ughhhhh. lol

Ha! Yeah, I remember that. The sadomasochistic threat was enough for me to leave you alone. I didn't want to start having nightmares of you (or what my mental image of you is) with a grill on your teeth, and telling me, "This is going to hurt, really, really bad!", while eerily coming towards me in the dark of night with a huge pair of scissors (or Kylo Ren's lightsaber) like a scene from The Big Lebowski.

I'm afraid to know what your mental image of me is. Actually, after reading that, I'm just afraid in general.

Where the hell do I start?

 This is a fantastic movie and the Ďfansí are ignorant buffoons who simply donít get it. Period.

Bull.

sh*t.

Offline thecolorsblend

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Re: Star Wars Episode 8: The Last Jedi
« Reply #69 on: Yesterday at 03:12 »
Bull.

sh*t.
Pretty much. Hamill seems pretty horrified by the movie, full-stop. Which I find very telling. Apart from this page, I'm accustomed to being the only one in the room who sees the brilliance of something. Being in the majority is a refreshing change of pace.

 

    
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