Marvel’s The Defenders (Netflix)

[Silver Nemesis]

First full trailer:

[Silver Nemesis]

A few thoughts.

The scene where Matt interrupts Jess' interrogation is taken straight from Alias Vol 1 #3 (January 2002).

As most of us anticipated, this looks like a loose adaptation of Shadowland. The way Elektra smacked Matt through that window suggests she's well on her way to becoming the Beast/Black Sky and will be filling the role Daredevil himself played in the original comic. Meanwhile Stick appears to be filling Master Izo's role.

In one scene Matt is wearing the Daredevil costume minus the mask. Has he removed the mask in an attempt to reach Elektra and reason with her? Or is something else happening here?

The moment where the Defenders are blasted through the air evokes this panel from Shadowland:

And of course it wouldn't be a Marvel Netflix show without a corridor fight.

Notice Elektra walking menacingly towards them in the background of this shot. Are they actually running away from her? If so, has she already become Black Sky by this point?

I loved Daredevil and Punisher's costumes in DD season 2, but I wasn't mad on Elektra's. It was ok, but I felt they should have inverted the colours so the red areas were black and the black areas red. It looks like they've done that here. Her new costume is closer to her classic look from the comics.

That's a major improvement. All she needs now is the headscarf and the costume will be perfect.

A few other things I liked in the trailer:

•   Sigourney Weaver! I've always thought of her as being the female Harrison Ford in terms of cult status, so it's a major bonus to have her play the villain.
•   I love the shot of Matt (I think) leaping off the rooftop with the cloudy night sky in the background.
•   Iron Fist and Luke Cage fighting in the alley.

The shot of Danny punching Luke is a nice throwback to LC s1:

Overall, a decent first trailer. Not as impressive as the DD s1 & 2 or JJ s1 trailers, but a good start. I bet the Punisher will appear at some point, but if that's the case they'll likely keep him under wraps until nearer the release date.

[thecolorsblend]

As most of us anticipated, this looks like a loose adaptation of Shadowland.

I must have missed that. Still, good to know I wasn't the only one thinking in that direction.

Me, I rather enjoy Shadowland. But it seems like most people don't so I'm not sure whose brilliant idea it was to adapt that story.

Shadowland is (or could be) a pretty convenient segue into a Born Again type of thing though.

There are a lot of options in the aftermath of a Shadowland adaptation. And that's just from comics. I assume these writers have their own ideas too.

I'll say it. I'm a lot more excited about the Netflixverse than I am about the big screen MCU.

[Silver Nemesis]

I must have missed that. Still, good to know I wasn't the only one thinking in that direction.

The majority of online conjecture pointed to a Shadowland adaptation back when the Marvel Netflix deal was first announced in 2013. Fans were speculating about it on SuperHeroHype, ComicVine, IGN and the IMDb long before DD s1 even aired. The Black Sky mystery merely added fuel to the theory. This trailer – showing the resurrected Elektra fighting alongside the Hand against the Defenders – practically confirms it.

Me, I rather enjoy Shadowland. But it seems like most people don't so I'm not sure whose brilliant idea it was to adapt that story.

I liked the main 5-issue Shadowland story. And I liked the build-up that preceded it during Andy Diggle's Daredevil run. But I didn't like all of the peripheral titles Marvel released to tie-in with the main event. Almost every character was given their own Shadowland miniseries or one-shot, and most of them were entirely nonessential to the overall plot. I think that's where a lot of the disdain for the 'event' as a whole stems from. Too many unnecessary tie-ins. I imagine a lot of fans also dislike Shadowland because it's seen as the culmination of Diggle's Daredevil run, which itself is perceived as a letdown; one that broke the decade-long winning streak that started with Guardian Devil and continued through to the end of Brubaker's run.

That said, I've not heard anyone complain about Marvel using Shadowland as the basis for The Defenders TV show. So it can't be that unpopular. I suppose the TV version has the potential to improve on the original comic in a number of interesting ways.

I'll say it. I'm a lot more excited about the Netflixverse than I am about the big screen MCU.

I'm more excited about the upcoming Netflix MCU content than I am about any theatrical superhero films, Marvel or DC. I'm fatigued with superhero movies in general (I'm hoping that fatigue will wear off before too long) and I've no interest in the teen-oriented content DC's churning out on the CW. For me, the comics will always come first. But Netflix is where it's at as far as live action superheroes are concerned.

[thecolorsblend]

The majority of online conjecture pointed to a Shadowland adaptation back when the Marvel Netflix deal was first announced in 2013.

*sigh*

This is one of those times when being disconnected from wider fandom works against me. Eh, whatevs. At least I know I'm not crazy for wondering about it. Or if I am, a ton of other people are crazy too so there's that.

I liked the main 5-issue Shadowland story. And I liked the build-up that preceded it during Andy Diggle's Daredevil run. But I didn't like all of the peripheral titles Marvel released to tie-in with the main event. Almost every character was given their own Shadowland miniseries or one-shot, and most of them were entirely nonessential to the overall plot. I think that's where a lot of the disdain for the 'event' as a whole stems from. Too many unnecessary tie-ins.

See, that's one thing I really dig about Shadowland. The main story is in the main limited series. But Shadowland didn't happen in a vacuum so those one-shots and tie-in limited series show other characters reacting to Shadowland without derailing the main limited series or detracting from those characters' ongoing titles (if they even had one). It's interesting for fans of those characters but it's not essential reading.

It's something that Marvel did really well back in those days. Honestly, the same criticism could be leveled at Civil War, Siege, House of M (I think) and others. Not trying to argue the point. Just saying...

I imagine a lot of fans also dislike Shadowland because it's seen as the culmination of Diggle's Daredevil run, which itself is perceived as a letdown; one that broke the decade-long winning streak that started with Guardian Devil and continued through to the end of Brubaker's run.

That I can see. Diggle's run doesn't quite measure up to what came before, that's for sure. But the way I see it, Diggle's work is solid on its own merits. And if it isn't quite as consistently engaging as Bendis or Brubaker... well, you can't have everything. If the Bendis and Brubaker runs were solid 10's (and I'd argue to the death that they were), Diggle is at a solid 7.5 or maybe even an 8. Not bad!

I suppose the TV version has the potential to improve on the original comic in a number of interesting ways.

Agreed. Getting possessed by the Beast of the Hand was pretty much Matt hitting rock bottom after everything that had happened to him in the Smith, Bendis and Brubaker runs. I don't think I need to see that angle in Defenders. I'm not opposed to it if it's done well. But it seems like too much for Matt as we've seen him so far in the Netflixverse.

I'm more excited about the upcoming Netflix MCU content than I am about any theatrical superhero films, Marvel or DC. I'm fatigued with superhero movies in general (I'm hoping that fatigue will wear off before too long) and I've no interest in the teen-oriented content DC's churning out on the CW. For me, the comics will always come first. But Netflix is where it's at as far as live action superheroes are concerned.

Yeah, the CW Arrowverse is a mixed bag. The only one I'm head-over-heels in love with is the Flash. The rest... well, I can take or leave them in the best of cases. In the worst cases, thanks but no thanks. You know?

[riddler]

I think the presence of the Rosario Dawson character will help these ones come together quicker than the avengers.

One thing these  series help bring back was the classic hero vs. villain stories. It seems the current clichee is to let the hero have one solo outing and then start giving him sidekicks. I think that's what made Doctor Strange refreshing, this was the first MCU film since Cap 1 and Thor 1 in which they let the star actor carry his film without shoehorning other characters in. On the DC side team arrow and team flash started building after the first seasons and with respect to the DCEU, they seem to be rushing in so heavily I don't know if they'll have the patience to churn out many films with only one hero. I guess the Bale Batman and Garfield Spider-man series kind of did but of those five films the only one with only one villain was the first Amazing Spider-man.

It's weird I've felt that Robin has been criminally under-portrayed on film in comparison to how often he was next to Batman in the comics and was angry the Nolan series basically ignored the character but at this point I wouldn't be hyped to find out Robin or Nightwing would be joining Batman because of all the sidekicks in the other films and series.

[Silver Nemesis]

See, that's one thing I really dig about Shadowland. The main story is in the main limited series. But Shadowland didn't happen in a vacuum so those one-shots and tie-in limited series show other characters reacting to Shadowland without derailing the main limited series or detracting from those characters' ongoing titles (if they even had one). It's interesting for fans of those characters but it's not essential reading.

It's something that Marvel did really well back in those days. Honestly, the same criticism could be leveled at Civil War, Siege, House of M (I think) and others. Not trying to argue the point. Just saying...

I admit it's nice to see a big event storyline in which Daredevil plays a central role, and where his actions actually have an impact on the lives of other superheroes. Usually he's just a supporting player in such plots. Or worse yet, a cameo.

That I can see. Diggle's run doesn't quite measure up to what came before, that's for sure. But the way I see it, Diggle's work is solid on its own merits. And if it isn't quite as consistently engaging as Bendis or Brubaker... well, you can't have everything. If the Bendis and Brubaker runs were solid 10's (and I'd argue to the death that they were), Diggle is at a solid 7.5 or maybe even an 8. Not bad!

In fairness to Diggle, the trajectory of his run was largely dictated by Brubaker. There used to be a tradition that an outgoing Daredevil writer would try and snooker his successor by leaving the character in a really awkward position. So while Bendis ended his run with Matt in jail, Brubaker ended his with Matt assuming control of the Hand. Diggle had no choice but to continue that storyline and make the best he could of it. Overall, I consider his run to be average. I don't mean that in a bad way. An average Daredevil run is still superior to 90% of most other comics. But like you say, after the excellence of Bendis and Brubaker, anything average was bound to seem like a disappointment.

There are a couple of other reasons I've heard people cite for hating Diggle's run. Some don't like the fact he brought back Snakeroot, the secret council at the heart of the Hand. Snakeroot are generally synonymous with Dan Chichester's run, which is reason enough for some fans to dislike them. They don't bother me personally, and I thought Diggle did a good job of updating them for modern readers.

A lot of fans also weren't happy with the fact Daredevil killed Bullseye in Shadowland. This would be a problem for me under normal circumstances, but I just assumed Matt was succumbing to the influence of the Beast when he did this. He wouldn't have done it if he hadn't already been corrupted, or if he was in complete control of his actions. At least that's my interpretation.

'The Devil's Hand' was a fun storyline. Nothing groundbreaking, but a decent continuation of Brubaker's ninja arc. And while I don't think Shadowland is a great story, I do think it's better than its reputation would suggest. Daredevil: Reborn is solid, though is owes a lot to Ann Nocenti's 'Lone Stranger' arc. So while I wouldn't rate Diggle as one of the best Daredevil writers, I certainly wouldn't rate him as the worst. He gave us an enjoyable run and I appreciate it for what it is.

Agreed. Getting possessed by the Beast of the Hand was pretty much Matt hitting rock bottom after everything that had happened to him in the Smith, Bendis and Brubaker runs. I don't think I need to see that angle in Defenders. I'm not opposed to it if it's done well. But it seems like too much for Matt as we've seen him so far in the Netflixverse.

Right. Daredevil Vol 2 was basically one decade-long emotional breakdown leading up to Shadowland. Matt's had several such breakdowns in the comics over the years, but he's not yet had one in the TV show. And when he does, I'd rather it took the form of a Born Again adaptation. So I'm cool with them having Elektra be the one who gets possessed.

[thecolorsblend]

I would've replied sooner but I didn't want to Bogart this thread any more than I already have. But now that probably everybody else has had a chance to reply...

I admit it's nice to see a big event storyline in which Daredevil plays a central role, and where his actions actually have an impact on the lives of other superheroes. Usually he's just a supporting player in such plots. Or worse yet, a cameo.

Bingo. And the thing is I enjoy Shadowland for that exact reason. Even during the early 2000's, after the Smith "run", Daredevil had a lot of respect but he wasn't the rock star back then that he's become now. I seriously doubt Marvel would've gambled on Shadowland back in 2003. So for that alone, sheer bragging rights, I sort of have to give Shadowland an easy pass on a lot of things.

In fairness to Diggle, the trajectory of his run was largely dictated by Brubaker. There used to be a tradition that an outgoing Daredevil writer would try and snooker his successor by leaving the character in a really awkward position. So while Bendis ended his run with Matt in jail, Brubaker ended his with Matt assuming control of the Hand. Diggle had no choice but to continue that storyline and make the best he could of it. Overall, I consider his run to be average. I don't mean that in a bad way. An average Daredevil run is still superior to 90% of most other comics. But like you say, after the excellence of Bendis and Brubaker, anything average was bound to seem like a disappointment.

True. But I got the idea that Diggle wasn't too interested in breaking away from where Bendis and Brubaker had taken Daredevil.

On top of that, all it really takes is between 6 and 12 months to get a character to a place where you want him. Diggle had that much time to spare and could've told a different story if it was his deepest desire to do so.

Maybe I'm not giving somebody in the process enough credit (or maybe I'm giving too much) but I don't see where changing directions after Brubaker would've been impossible for whoever replaced Brubaker if they'd wanted to do that.

A lot of fans also weren't happy with the fact Daredevil killed Bullseye in Shadowland. This would be a problem for me under normal circumstances, but I just assumed Matt was succumbing to the influence of the Beast when he did this. He wouldn't have done it if he hadn't already been corrupted, or if he was in complete control of his actions. At least that's my interpretation.

I agree.

'The Devil's Hand' was a fun storyline. Nothing groundbreaking, but a decent continuation of Brubaker's ninja arc. And while I don't think Shadowland is a great story, I do think it's better than its reputation would suggest. Daredevil: Reborn is solid, though is owes a lot to Ann Nocenti's 'Lone Stranger' arc. So while I wouldn't rate Diggle as one of the best Daredevil writers, I certainly wouldn't rate him as the worst. He gave us an enjoyable run and I appreciate it for what it is.

Nocenti's run is a pretty big blind spot for me, tbh.

But what I enjoy about Reborn is that semi-Adlard style the artist had (which works great for Daredevil) and the fact that Murdock learns (or is reminded) that his life is difficult, sure, but he can help people in very direct and very intimate ways that maybe other Marvel characters can't. The Avengers were never going to liberate that town from the villain (whose name escapes me). But they're free now because of Matt and nobody else. He walks a special path. It's kind of like the famous speech from Rocky Balboa about moving forward.

I sympathize with Murdock for wanting to quit, especially after what he'd been through. But his dad didn't raise him to give up and I buy that he'd go back to New York.

It bugs the hell out of me when people dismiss Reborn as a retread of Born Again. Apart from the similar titles, they really don't have very much to do with each other.

[Silver Nemesis]

Nocenti's run is a pretty big blind spot for me, tbh.

I've got a soft spot for Nocenti's era. The very first Daredevil comic I ever bought as a child was this one:

This may also account for Bullseye being my favourite Daredevil villain. That issue came right at the end of Nocenti's run, and I didn't get to read her earlier stories until many years later. She's generally held in high regard by Daredevil fans and I rate her highly myself. Nocenti had the unenviable task of following Born Again, but she did a surprisingly great job of bridging the gap between Miller and Chichester. Her take on the material is deeply idiosyncratic (and at times downright weird) and places its emphasis on the more spiritual, compassionate side of Matt's character. I'd definitely rank her amongst my top ten Daredevil writers, perhaps even amongst my top five. There is however one major oft-cited drawback to her run that's impossible to ignore: the politics.

Nocenti had a habit of injecting her own liberal viewpoints into many of her stories. I don't really have a problem with this, as long as the views being expressed are consistent with Matt's own ideology and as long as they're not too heavy-handed. A story about the evils of pollution? Ok, I can live with that. A story about the plight of the homeless? That's a noble cause and one that's close to Matt's heart, so I've no problem with that either. A story about domestic violence? Fine. A story about the cruelty of battery farms? Ok. But just check out this scene from 'Vital Signs' (Daredevil Vol 1 #260, November 1988).

I know it's done in a humorous way, but even so. When you hear the voice of the writer speaking to you instead of the voice of the character, that's when the agenda has become too heavy-handed. But it's not a major problem for me and DD #260 is actually a really great issue. As long as you can overlook the heavy-handed politics, Nocenti's run in general is ace.

The original Typhoid Mary storyline is one of my favourite Daredevil arcs, and Typhoid herself is my second favourite villain after Bullseye. The aftermath of this story saw Matt leaving New York and becoming a drifter during the 'Lone Stranger' arc (if you like Reborn, you'll probably dig this too). He wandered through various small towns helping ordinary folk, all the while being haunted and tested by Mephisto. This saga includes the classic Spider-Man crossover from Daredevil Vol 1 #270 (September 1989) that introduced Mephisto's son, Blackheart. It ultimately leads into a storyline where Daredevil and his companions literally descend into the depths of Hell to confront Mephisto. It's a weird run, but I love it.

Unfortunately Nocenti's Daredevil stories are quite difficult to come by these days. However Marvel released an Epic Collection last year called 'A Touch of Typhoid' which includes the whole Typhoid Mary storyline as well as the beginning of the Lone Stranger arc. It ends with Daredevil Vol 1 #270. The good news is they're releasing another Epic Collection this coming September called 'Heart of Darkness' which picks up at #271 and includes the rest of the Long Stranger arc as well as the descent into Hell storyline. So if you get these two volumes, you'll have the majority of Nocenti's most memorable Daredevil stories.

It bugs the hell out of me when people dismiss Reborn as a retread of Born Again. Apart from the similar titles, they really don't have very much to do with each other.

I do see strong similarities between Reborn and Lone Stranger, but not between Reborn and Born Again. Perhaps the people making those comparisons haven't read many DD comics.

[Silver Nemesis]