Early draft of the script

[Grissom]

So I'm reading an article some weeks ago about the development of the story for this sequel and one version of Catwoman had her brandishing an AK47 and killing cops. Now this may seem far out but how different it would have been if Catwoman was a true villain, one who kills wantonly. I think it was the same draft that has her and Penguin looking for treasure in the Batcave (can't be 100% sure).

The whole searching for lost treasure is interesting but I guess for many it would not have been very "superhero movie like". However as Batman and Batman Returns feel a lot like film noir, it could have been interesting to see this story. It would have played more like an old adventure serial than a strictly action/superhero film. I think Sam Hamm is a great screenwriter and I hope that he writes more films and who knows, maybe Tim might tap him to come back for Batman one more time. 

[Catwoman]

If she'd been a full villain one thing's for sure, my screenname would not be Catwoman. I probably wouldn't even be on this site. So yall can blame Daniel Waters and whoever (Wesley Strick?) for my presence lol.

[riddler]

So I'm reading an article some weeks ago about the development of the story for this sequel and one version of Catwoman had her brandishing an AK47 and killing cops. Now this may seem far out but how different it would have been if Catwoman was a true villain, one who kills wantonly. I think it was the same draft that has her and Penguin looking for treasure in the Batcave (can't be 100% sure).

The whole searching for lost treasure is interesting but I guess for many it would not have been very "superhero movie like". However as Batman and Batman Returns feel a lot like film noir, it could have been interesting to see this story. It would have played more like an old adventure serial than a strictly action/superhero film. I think Sam Hamm is a great screenwriter and I hope that he writes more films and who knows, maybe Tim might tap him to come back for Batman one more time. 

I'm glad they abandoned the lost treasure plotline. It's hard to have a female villain to a male hero in any medium especially one which involves physical combat. Filmmakers don't want to come across as chauvanistic or embracing mysogynism. It kind of worked in the Adam West show (they made catwoman a villain rather than an ally) but they gave male goons to fight. Props to Tim Burton for pulling off having Keaton fight Pfeiffer. Batman and Robin did it but had Batgirl take down Ivy.

[Edd Grayson]

Sam Hamm's script sounds interesting, really, but I don't think it suited Burton's style, which is why he turned it down. I would've liked to see Robin though.

[Grissom]

I am presently reading the Sam Hamm Batman 2 script and so far there are some interesting elements to it (I finished Hamm's 1986 draft script for Batman last week). The opening action sequence was quite good with Batman chasing robbers through the snow with the Batmobile, using a blast of flame from the front of the Batmobile to melt the snow in front. It was action-packed and exciting. It may have been difficult to film though, especially on a sound stage, unless Hamm and others presumed they would be still using the Pinewood set.

[Edd Grayson]

I would've liked that script for a third Batman film.

[The Laughing Fish]

I wasn't a fan of Sam Hamm's script. It felt drawn out with Batman having less to do and would've had smaller screen time than he actually had in BR, a completely sadistic Catwoman who you couldn't emphasize, an anticlimactic ending involving a treasure hunt inside the Batcave, and Dick Grayson as a homeless kid protecting his turf till Bruce took him under his wing in the end. Admittedly, the last bit might not sound too bad, but I wasn't impressed how the idea was presented in the script.

To those who read the script, do you think the Order of the Bat gang is loosely inspired by the Sons of Batman from The Dark Knight Returns? The gang in the script have no affiliation with Batman, and Batman himself is bothered by their presence. But I noticed these similarities:

• they are supporters of Batman,
• they wear bat emblems to brand themselves,
• they get involved in vigilantism,
• and there is a loud-mouthed spokesperson who gets interviewed on the news.

[johnnygobbs]

To those who read the script, do you think the Order of the Bat gang is loosely inspired by the Sons of Batman from The Dark Knight Returns? The gang in the script have no affiliation with Batman, and Batman himself is bothered by their presence. But I noticed these similarities:

• they are supporters of Batman,
• they wear bat emblems to brand themselves,
• they get involved in vigilantism,
• and there is a loud-mouthed spokesperson who gets interviewed on the news.

Funnily enough, Nolan seemed to use almost exactly the same idea in TDK (apart from the loudmouth spokesperson).

And I agree that Sam Hamm was most likely inspired by The Dark Knight Returns.

I also share some of your criticisms of 'Batman 2'.  Ideally Burton and co would have found a way to combine some of the elements of 'Batman 2' with what became 'Batman Returns', including the Robin element, a more classic take on The Penguin, and a bigger focus on the whole 'Batman gets framed' idea.  Although it's interesting that many of the elements of 'Batman 2' were, coincidentally, utilised in 'Batman Returns' such as the Catwoman/Penguin team-up, Batman being framed, corporate villains, and the Christmas setting, not to mention the fact that Robin was originally going to appear in 'Batman Returns'.

[Catwoman]

I wasn't a fan of Sam Hamm's script. It felt drawn out with Batman having less to do and would've had smaller screen time than he actually had in BR, a completely sadistic Catwoman who you couldn't emphasize, an anticlimactic ending involving a treasure hunt inside the Batcave, and Dick Grayson as a homeless kid protecting his turf till Bruce took him under his wing in the end. Admittedly, the last bit might not sound too bad, but I wasn't impressed how the idea was presented in the script.

I detested that part of it. I like skimmed through it reading her parts and I was like "Wow....disaster averted." Even the one in Daniel Waters' script was a bit worse than what we got in the rewrite/film and a little hard for me to sympathize with but Sam Hamm's was just this one dimensional total bitch.

Like I said before I probably wouldn't be here if they'd gone that route with Catwoman. I might have enjoyed Batman a bit still but not enough to like seek it out places online to talk about it. The Returns Catwoman gave me a character to identify with and fall in love with and be passionate about and that opened up other doors for me to be passionate about other characters and Batman in general. And I'm sure I'm not the only one she did that for.

[johnnygobbs]

Like I said before I probably wouldn't be here if they'd gone that route with Catwoman. I might have enjoyed Batman a bit still but not enough to like seek it out places online to talk about it. The Returns Catwoman gave me a character to identify with and fall in love with and be passionate about and that opened up other doors for me to be passionate about other characters and Batman in general. And I'm sure I'm not the only one she did that for.

I also prefer Catwoman as an anti-heroine or a more extremist-version of Batman (i.e. a heroine but one who uses more extreme tactics than Batman), than an out-and-out villainess.

I don't even mind Catwoman as more of a femme fatale type character, as she was in 'Batman 2' as long as she's given some pathos, or she is ultimately revealed to be a more sympathetic character.  But Catwoman in 'Batman 2' was a completely irredeemable 'bad girl' character set in direct contrast to 'good girl' Vicki Vale.  In fact that whole 'good girl/bad girl' dynamic seems a quite basic and two-dimensional view of women compared to what we thankfully got with 'Batman Returns'.