Would Batman 3 Have Been a Sequel to Returns?

[Slash Man]

Sounds like a weird question, right? Let me explain.

One of my nitpicks I used to have for Batman Returns was that it had little continuity with the first film. Turns out, I was looking at it the wrong way (though you can't blame me, it was marketed as a sequel). I recently found out that Burton wanted the second installment to be a different retelling of Batman lore. It's a strange hybrid in that Burton went into it with the intention of setting it apart from the first, but had a few pieces of continuity added in to make it technically part of the same series.

So the question is, would Burton's Batman 3 have been a sequel to Batman Returns, or another standalone installment? It's been said that the first film was much of an experiment for Burton, and Returns found him more comfortable in the universe (it's much more Burton). Think he'd re-envision Batman again?

[The Laughing Fish]

Since there's not much information to go by other than hearsay, I think it's rather likely that Burton would've re-visioned Batman again. Let's not forget that he's not the type of director who is too fond of doing sequels from an artistic point of view, and would rather do a completely new film. After all, if Burton had to be convinced by one of the scriptwriters to add a few nods to the first film then how likely is it that he'd make Batman 3 a direct sequel to BR?

[johnnygobbs]

I'm really not sure how Michael Keaton's Batman could have returned anyway.  After all, he was framed and never cleared at the end of Batman Returns.  Surely his days as a police-sanctioned, 'legitimate' crime-fighter were over.

[The Laughing Fish]

I don't know about that. The end of the movie showed a Batsignal light up in the sky, which I always thought that Batman had been exonerated of the Ice Princess's murder off-screen.

[johnnygobbs]

I don't know about that. The end of the movie showed a Batsignal light up in the sky, which I always thought that Batman had been exonerated of the Ice Princess's murder off-screen.

How do you think that was possible?

[The Laughing Fish]

In all honesty, that's the only logical reason I could think of. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense to me if Batman was still wanted for the murder of the Ice Princess. What other logical reason is there for the police to light the Batsignal up in the sky? If Batman still hadn't been cleared of any wrongdoing by that stage then I'd imagine the Batsignal would've been destroyed and discarded by that stage.

[johnnygobbs]

In all honesty, that's the only logical reason I could think of. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense to me if Batman was still wanted for the murder of the Ice Princess. What other logical reason is there for the police to light the Batsignal up in the sky? If Batman still hadn't been cleared of any wrongdoing by that stage then I'd imagine the Batsignal would've been destroyed and discarded by that stage.

Sure, but I see it one of two ways.  Perhaps the murder hadn't been cleared and Gordon was trying to call Batman in to help clear his name, or the Red Triangle Circus Gang members who Batman had prevented from kidnapping Gotham's first-born had been rounded up and made to confess to the Penguin's various wrongdoing in order to get a lighter sentence, after all the Poodle Lady was present at the kidnapping, and the other gang members sabotaged the Batmobile.

What I most certainly would not feel comfortable is an ending where the police were happy to cooperate with Batman without having first established the actual murderer of the Ice Princess.    If a cloud of suspicion still hung over him I'm sure there would be many people who'd take issue with his presence.

[The Laughing Fish]

Perhaps the murder hadn't been cleared and Gordon was trying to call Batman in to help clear his name,

I don't think Gordon would be allowed to do that at that stage. Unless Batman has clear evidence to prove his innocence, how is he going to appear on the rooftop somewhere when he's accused of committing first-degree murder?

You know, Batman Returns and Batman: Mask of the Phantasm both have identical endings. Both endings only allude to Batman being cleared of any wrongdoing without a scene that actually tells us beforehand. We don't get to have a scene where it's announced that Batman is innocent, but the Batsignal lighting up in the sky must mean he got his name cleared. It's a bit of shame that we didn't get a scene similar to the altered ending of BR's comic adaptation; where the Mayor and Gordon look up at the Batsignal knowing that Batman will continue to protect Gotham despite wondering if he'll ever forgive the city for being wrongfully accused of murdering an innocent victim.

But for argument's sake, even if Batman wasn't cleared by the end of both films, I'd still say neither would be as bad as, for example, Batman taking the blame for murders he didn't commit to protect a disgraced DA, while the Joker sits by in his jail cell in silence despite knowing what the DA did and allows Gotham to rid itself of crime for the next eight years. 

[johnnygobbs]

But for argument's sake, even if Batman wasn't cleared by the end of both films, I'd still say neither would be as bad as, for example, Batman taking the blame for murders he didn't commit to protect a disgraced DA, while the Joker sits by in his jail cell in silence despite knowing what the DA did and allows Gotham to rid itself of crime for the next eight years. 

My only issue with that is that after eight years no one has caught Batman (even though the number of Gothamites capable of assuming the role of Batman is fairly limited, and Coleman Reese has strong information as to Batman's identity which, now that the Joker has been apprehended he is perfectly at liberty to share with the authorities).  I'd like to think that if Batman was still a suspect in the Ice Princess's death the police wouldn't be sitting idly on their hands for eight years (and I know Gordon knows otherwise in the case of 'The Dark Knight' with respect to Batman's 'guilt', but surely the families of the various victims, not to mention the mayor and the public at large, would be clamouring for justice). 

[Seantastic]

I never thought about the Returns ending haha; but doing so now I really think the original ending would have made much more sense.
Or if they had done both, like you have Gordon and the Mayor looking at eachother and asking if he'll ever forgive them?  Then it cuts to Bruce finding the cat, pans up and the light hits and Catwoman raises her head.

In terms of whether or not they would allow Batman to return after what had happened, I dont think it'd have mattered - the next film would most likely been another chapter in the Batman series, like another comic story.  I doubt much attention would have been paid to making it all connect together tbh, but it were, I could just see it being a case of Batman having even less to do with Gordon, maybe that would have been why he enlists the help of Robin eventually?