Wouldn’t keeping the Joker alive jeopardize the Dent cover-up?

[thecolorsblend]

I've said before, and I'll say it once again: it boggles my mind that pretentious airheads argue that Joker won the moral battle, while still declaring TDK and TDKR as "inspirational" and "heroic" compared to BvS.

Honestly, I think the only Batman film that truly qualifies as having an inspirational and heroic ending is B89. Danny Elfman's use of 'Finale' really cements my opinion....because that music screams heroism in a big way. It's total victory. The villain is defeated, his goons are rounded up, the hero stands victorious, and his girlfriend will be waiting back at home for him. BF and B&R end happily, but not triumphantly. Same thing with Begins. It's a good little scene but it's low key in comparison to B89. Burton and Elfman gave such a satisfying conclusion and release to their film that still manages to give me goosebumps. Batman retains his mystery but he steps out of the shadows. It's a really cool balance.

That's an interesting observation, actually.

BR... well, we know all about that one.

BF has Batman gaining a new partner, a new girlfriend (shortlived apparently) and a sense of inner peace. But the victories are moral and psychological rather than visceral.

B&R is happy, like you say, but more like a breath of relief than an exultation of absolute victory.

With BB, things arguably are worse than they were before.

TDK shows things definitely being worse.

TDKRises shows a conclusion but the ending is anything but happy. Resolute but not triumphant.

Hell, even Batman: The Movie shows the UN delegates completely screwed up and Bruce realized his relationship with Ms. Kitka was a scam by Catwoman (as nonsensical as that might be, continuity-wise).

BVS shows Batman realizing he made a huge mistake.

B89 truly is the only happy, triumphant ending the character has ever had in live action.

Of all movies MOTP can't be said to have a happy ending.

It raises the question of if Batman movies should have triumphal endings or if the bittersweet approach is better.

[riddler]

I'll take it a step further and do the same for the spider-man movies

Spider-man: Harry is mourning Norman's death and vows revenge on spider-man, Peter decides not to be with MJ
Spider-man 2: Peter and MJ are finally together but Harry has learned Peter is Spider-man and now off for revenge on Peter
Spider-man 3: Harry is dead, Pete and MJ seem to be staying broken up
Amazing spider-man: Captain Stacey is dead and Gwen is hurt by what happened with Doctor Connors.
Amazing Spider-man 2: Gwen is dead
Spider-man homecoming: Liz' father is in prison, Peter is foregoing his goal of becoming an Avenger


so Spidey never gets a truly happy triumphant ending either, the closest we get is the newest film which still has somewhat of a somber ending. I guess that's the tragedy of being a super hero, your war is never truly won.

[The Dark Knight]

I'm a lover of tragedy. Apart from Batman, I'm also fascinated by Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader's story. I find him so engaging because in the story triangle there's always three key roles...the victim, the villain and the hero. Anakin is all three. I won't go into much more detail about Vader, but needless to say, strong and theatrical characters like Vader and Batman aren't always what they project. They're fighting an internal battle on a regular basis, and truthfully, they're not far off ending it all. But they manage to keep going despite all this. They find reasons to live.

So needless to say, I'm a fan of poignant, downbeat endings. Batman Returns being the key example here. Really, it's PERFECT when you consider what I typed in my first paragraph. Bruce is being driven around Gotham with lingering thoughts about Selina probably being dead. At the very least, she outright rejected his love and attacked him. That's rocket fuel for depression and something don't get over easy. Penguin had to be stopped, but in any case, I think Bruce was affected by his story in some way. Even if just for the fact he grew up without his parents. So there's that.

So the guy is feeling down, and he's probably very nearly out. But he spots a silhouette on a wall and gets excited for a split second. He gets out of the car and to his disappointment, he doesn't find what he's looking for. But he does find a cat, and that alone manages to lift his spirits. He's starting to feel better already, even if he is still hollow and full of longing. It just enough to say life isn't all doom and gloom, even if it mostly is.

But don't downplay B89's ending. It's unforgettable and the perfect way to end that film. These types of endings have their place, and I'm expecting something similar for Justice League. But for my money, something somber better suits Batman.

[thecolorsblend]

Bruce is being driven around Gotham with lingering thoughts about Selina probably being dead.

This is something I'd never connected before. But the ending of BR is a dark counter-point to the ending of B89, where Alfred drives a happy Vicki to a date (or a meeting of some kind) with Bruce. Love is in the air. Contrast that with BR, where Bruce drives a lonely Bruce through Gotham City. It may be Christmas but heartbreak is in the air.

Interesting...

[The Dark Knight]

It's not terrible, but I still don't like the added shot of Catwoman standing in thin air looking at the bat signal. It wasn't needed, and it only created a mistake. In my opinion it also tarnishes any mystery the silhouette on the wall created moments before. Batman's eye shadow? Reusing shots of Batman watching the missiles rain down? I don't care about that. But I find that Catwoman ending annoying, and doubly so when you realize it wasn't originally planned. I guess Batman doesn't know she lived, but the error remains. She's not standing on anything!

So there you have it. I prefer the tone of BR's ending, but prefer how 'clean' B89's is.

[The Laughing Fish]

With BB, things arguably are worse than they were before.

I think BB's ending is the least problematic out of Nolan's films because whether you like it or not, Batman still saves the day. The League of Shadows always wanted to destroy Gotham City long before Bruce got involved with them. Sure, they would come back to finish what Ra's al Ghul started in the future. But there may never have been a future for Gotham City if Bruce never became Batman.

Unfortunately, Batman's decisions in the sequels definitely made things worse for the city.

B&R is happy, like you say, but more like a breath of relief than an exultation of absolute victory.

I'd have to disagree. As relieving it was for Alfred to survive, the ending had Batman and Robin making amends with petty differences and Batgirl joining their ranks. If there was an evolving character arc for Batman linking Burton with Schumacher, it's that Batman has found a surrogate family and no longer drifts along alone in the world. I think him finding that closure is a triumph by itself.

It's not terrible, but I still don't like the added shot of Catwoman standing in thin air looking at the bat signal. It wasn't needed, and it only created a mistake. In my opinion it also tarnishes any mystery the silhouette on the wall created moments before. Batman's eye shadow? Reusing shots of Batman watching the missiles rain down? I don't care about that. But I find that Catwoman ending annoying, and doubly so when you realize it wasn't originally planned. I guess Batman doesn't know she lived, but the error remains. She's not standing on anything!

So there you have it. I prefer the tone of BR's ending, but prefer how 'clean' B89's is.

I can understand the argument against having Catwoman staring up at the Batsignal because it does diminish the shadow on the wall, if one wanted to see it as open to interpretation whether she's alive or not. But I never paid much attention to the spatial error (if that's the correct term). I always assumed she was standing from the foreground.

[riddler]

I would have preferred the final shot have been the flickering Bat signal , it fit the plot of the film and could have been a way to show Bruce was right about Gotham's power supply.

I will forgive Burton for putting Catwoman there though. At the time he planned on using her in a future film which would have made more sense. You have to remember comic book movies were still in it's infancy so sequel continuity was not what it is now. It does go down as an unresolved cliff hanger and open up more unanswered questions about what exactly happened to Selina.

I take the ending that hope is enough to keep Bruce going and fighting.

[Dagenspear]

It's the classic "Nolan can do no wrong" tale. Still at this stage of his career Nolan hasn't learned how to shoot action or edit his films properly and yet rarely gets called out for it.

From many people who love the Nolan movies I have seen complaints about the editing and choreography. Personally it never concerned me. Fighting in Batman is good, but Batman isn't really about him punching people. In BvS Bruce running into the crumbling rubble of the city in an alien invasion is 10x cooler than almost anything in that warehouse fight to me.

Honestly, I think the only Batman film that truly qualifies as having an inspirational and heroic ending is B89. Danny Elfman's use of 'Finale' really cements my opinion....because that music screams heroism in a big way. It's total victory. The villain is defeated, his goons are rounded up, the hero stands victorious, and his girlfriend will be waiting back at home for him. BF and B&R end happily, but not triumphantly. Same thing with Begins. It's a good little scene but it's low key in comparison to B89. Burton and Elfman gave such a satisfying conclusion and release to their film that still manages to give me goosebumps. Batman retains his mystery but he steps out of the shadows. It's a really cool balance.

The endings to BF and B&R are very hopeful, certainly B&R's is more hopeful than B89.

TDK I don't disagree with anything you wrote, my preference would have been telling the truth as well. Supposedly they're worried that any convictions Dent got could be put in jeopardy if Gotham finds out what he did. To that I say baloney- it could be easily proven that Harvey went off the deep end after Rachel's death and his scarring. That would have been far more logical than tampering with a murder scene to frame Batman.

Bruce needlessly martyring himself was a pretty big point in the movie. He blames himself for the Joker's existence, for Rachel's death and for Harvey's insanity. "Did I bring this on her Alfred? I was meant to inspire good. Not madness, not death." "Gotham needs its true hero. And I let that murdering psychopath blow him half to hell." "I'm sorry, Harvey." No one and I mean no one in either movies pretends this is a good thing. It's not even about what can be proven. It's about trying to place Harvey as a maryr for the cause, a false martyr. Havrey becomes that for the cops and the city who all look up to Harvey as someone who is apart of the system. They even all practically cheer Harvey on when he turns himself in. Batman has never inspired true hope for the city at that point. He's an unsanctioned vigilante, who pummels criminals that the cops overlook. People turn on Batman when things go bad because he's not someone they view as the heroic White Knight. He's morally dubious. Dent was a noble Prince Charming type hero to them. That's the illusion Batman and Jim want to maintain and it's wrong to do.

I've said before, and I'll say it once again: it boggles my mind that pretentious airheads argue that Joker won the moral battle, while still declaring TDK and TDKR as "inspirational" and "heroic" compared to BvS. To this day, I am astounded by the utter stupidity of these critics and fanboys. I feel as if we live in the world depicted in that film Idiocracy.

The 2 aren't mutually exclusive. Even BvS understands what you don't want see on some level: The existence of bad winning a battle doesn't erase heroism or hope or inspirational-ness. It's simply a false notion. The Joker can win a battle. That doesn't negate any heroism or inspiration. You insulting that understanding seems so cynical. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

[Andrew]

It's not terrible, but I still don't like the added shot of Catwoman standing in thin air looking at the bat signal. It wasn't needed, and it only created a mistake. In my opinion it also tarnishes any mystery the silhouette on the wall created moments before.

The Joker and the Penguin died so I thought it was nice to see a break and avoidance of that trend and acknowledgment that the villains usually don't die. And there's still some ambiguity about does she want a rematch (that's how I most often interpret the ending), is she going to forgive Batman, become a criminal but avoid Batman or planning to leave?

BF has Batman gaining a new partner, a new girlfriend (shortlived apparently) and a sense of inner peace. But the victories are moral and psychological rather than visceral.

There's also the weirdness that, against what he said should be done, he killed (or didn't save) Two-Face in the end. But I think I and most viewers did see not saving him as pretty different.

[thecolorsblend]

I would have preferred the final shot have been the flickering Bat signal , it fit the plot of the film and could have been a way to show Bruce was right about Gotham's power supply.

I will forgive Burton for putting Catwoman there though. At the time he planned on using her in a future film which would have made more sense. You have to remember comic book movies were still in it's infancy so sequel continuity was not what it is now. It does go down as an unresolved cliff hanger and open up more unanswered questions about what exactly happened to Selina.

I take the ending that hope is enough to keep Bruce going and fighting.

Not sure how a flickering bat signal would prove Bruce right. If anything, it would vindicate Max Shreck.