Wouldn’t keeping the Joker alive jeopardize the Dent cover-up?

Started by The Laughing Fish, Mon, 23 Mar 2015, 11:22

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Quote from: Andrew on Wed, 13 Sep  2017, 17:46
I think it makes the most sense, and can even be inferred, that the Joker was killed or otherwise died shortly after TDK. It is annoying for such a big element to just be completely ignored in the sequel, especially when the sequel does follow-up the Dent part of TDK, but I guess it's understandable that Nolan would think mentioning the Joker, especially as having died, would be disrespectful to Ledger.

Yeah, if he had lived the Joker would have escaped from prison and been effective in undermining order and public trust.

As I said before, I completely understand and respect Nolan's wish to not re-cast the role following Ledger's untimely death. But I personally don't see how even a nod to the character's aftermath would be in any way disrespectful to the actor. Oh well, there's nothing anybody can do now. What's done is done.
QuoteJonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

I think the staging for Dark Knight Rises really eliminates the influence the Joker would have had or perhaps even desired. Batman had gone into hiding and the Joker was institutionalized. The streets got cleaned up so there was no sweeping criminal element for the Joker to immediately connect with when Bane started creating chaos. Batman's return and Banes strong armed influence really eliminated any outside players to come onto the scene. Gotham was more in a military state of takeover than a town run rampant with petty crime. This was not the Joker's element and essentially his tale had been covered in depth from that previous chapter. I think in terms of story responsibilities, there was no reason to merit his return in Rises or make reference about him in dialogue.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  8 Aug  2015, 22:20I thought the entire point of TDK was that the Joker won the moral victory. Sure, Gordon and Batman can issue whatever propaganda they want but (A) that by itself acknowledges his victory (B) it destroys Batman, which in a weird kind of way is a fulfillment of the promise the Joker made earlier (C) in a weird nonsensical way it makes Batman break his one rule... but not really (D) the entire thing is predicated on lies, which is the Joker's way of destroying Batman and Gordon and (E) it still doesn't change anything. The Joker still destroyed Harvey. Batman and Gordon still have to live with that. Whatever lies they tell themselves and others doesn't make a difference. The Joker won.

This, in fact, is one of the problems I have with TDK.
I would just like to say that I stand by this.

Whether or not the public has seen Harvey's true colors, Batman, Gordon and the Joker all know the truth. And I think the Joker would enjoy knowing (A) that he won and (B) pretending that he lost "killed" the Batman... which is what the Joker said he would do.

Lies are like a sugar rush. They're short term and ultimately don't last. Truth is forever. Sure, TDK Rises miraculously had a crime-free Gotham thanks to the Dent Act, but Jokedy Joke Joke (JJJ) won the moral battle regardless of what Gordon and Batman sold to the public....and all three of them all knew it. 

Baleman only postponed Gotham's reckoning. And really, withholding the truth for so long only made the situation a tsunami. Think about it, folks. By covering up the truth about Dent, Baleman was smeared as a cop killer for about eight years. His name was mud. And guess what? When the truth came out, his name should still be mud, because he's now just a liar. Baleman was NEVER the moral beacon for Gotham City any way you look at it.

His only heroic deed was carrying the bomb out of Gotham. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror.

I never found Bale overly heroic in his films, to be honest I felt he was selfish, he was more concerned with Rachel and Selina than Gotham.

Another aspect of this cover up which is stupid is the fact that Batman and Gordon couldn't possibly know everything Harvey did after escaping the hospital, they wouldn't have known where he went and when, or who saw him. How did they know that nobody is alive who saw him commit crimes? Especially when they know he's been using the coin to make decisions, how do they know he didn't terrorize someone but let them live because of the result of the coin toss?

I don't understand why they don't just dispose of the body and let everyone believe he died in the hospital explosion?  If the reason is the possibility a witness saw him after the hospital was bombed, that just reinforces my point of how easily they could have been caught with the frame job.

One thing to note TDK, the public doesn't know that Batman was involved in framing himself (as Batman never addresses the public). So his reputation could have been spared once the truth came out.

Still I will never believe that framing Batman was the right or strategic thing to do because you will never convince me that Batman or Gordon could have predicted the peace time that would ensue or that another super criminal would emerge. And low and behold it does bite them several times in Rises. Batman actually helped the bad guy escape just by showing up on scene and drawing the cops off him. If it weren't for the frame job, it's likely Batman and the cops stop Bane right there.

Quote from: riddler on Thu, 21 Sep  2017, 05:16
I don't understand why they don't just dispose of the body and let everyone believe he died in the hospital explosion?  If the reason is the possibility a witness saw him after the hospital was bombed, that just reinforces my point of how easily they could have been caught with the frame job
I don't understand why they didn't just tell the truth. TDK tried to elevate Harvey Dent into JFK status. Some highly esteemed myth that couldn't do anything wrong and was loved by all. I don't buy that. At that point, Dent was just a DA who made a few headlines, but he wasn't a towering national figure or anything. Does anyone here seriously believe all of Gotham's citizens would've lost hope if they blew the whistle on Dent's crimes in 2008?

Sure, it would've been disappointing. But people would've got on with their lives. If anything, the news would've elicited satisfaction. "Hey bro, did ya hear that Dent fella killed a buncha cops?" "Nah, man. Is he goin' to jail or what?" "Nah, that mothafunkin' fool is dead". "Cool man, let's have a beer to celebrate". A criminal did a bunch of crimes and paid the ultimate price himself. That's the system and nobody is above it.

Dent did more good in death than in life. That's what the sequel tries to sell, but I still don't buy that. Does crime vanish because a piece of legislation is passed? No way, Jose. Crime is always present, and if it vanishes to the extent TDK Rises shows, someone moves in to take advantage. Eight years of peace and quiet is absolute ridiculousness. I mean....seriously. Does anyone think that over a period of a decade, a city like New York's biggest issue would be overdue library books? That's probably the single most unrealistic notion in the TDK Trilogy.

They overstate the importance of Dent and the effectiveness of the Dent Act.
Quote from: riddler on Thu, 21 Sep  2017, 05:16
One thing to note TDK, the public doesn't know that Batman was involved in framing himself (as Batman never addresses the public). So his reputation could have been spared once the truth came out.
The letter which Mask Man reads out implicates Baleman. "He saved my boy then took the blame for Harvey's appalling crimes so that I could, to my shame, build a lie around this fallen idol." They conspired together. Why Gotham would just believe this because Bane said so is anyone's guess. But that's what the film presents. Baleman is offended at Alfred for hiding the truth about Rachel...while he's hiding the truth about Dent from Gotham. What a hypocrite.

TDK I don't disagree with anything you wrote, my preference would have been telling the truth as well. Supposedly they're worried that any convictions Dent got could be put in jeopardy if Gotham finds out what he did. To that I say baloney- it could be easily proven that Harvey went off the deep end after Rachel's death and his scarring. That would have been far more logical than tampering with a murder scene to frame Batman.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 21 Sep  2017, 04:14
Lies are like a sugar rush. They're short term and ultimately don't last. Truth is forever. Sure, TDK Rises miraculously had a crime-free Gotham thanks to the Dent Act, but Jokedy Joke Joke (JJJ) won the moral battle regardless of what Gordon and Batman sold to the public....and all three of them all knew it. 

Baleman only postponed Gotham's reckoning. And really, withholding the truth for so long only made the situation a tsunami. Think about it, folks. By covering up the truth about Dent, Baleman was smeared as a cop killer for about eight years. His name was mud. And guess what? When the truth came out, his name should still be mud, because he's now just a liar. Baleman was NEVER the moral beacon for Gotham City any way you look at it.

His only heroic deed was carrying the bomb out of Gotham. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror.

I've said before, and I'll say it once again: it boggles my mind that pretentious airheads argue that Joker won the moral battle, while still declaring TDK and TDKR as "inspirational" and "heroic" compared to BvS. To this day, I am astounded by the utter stupidity of these critics and fanboys. I feel as if we live in the world depicted in that film Idiocracy.
QuoteJonathan Nolan: He [Batman] has this one rule, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight. But he does wind up breaking it. Does he break it in the third film?

Christopher Nolan: He breaks it in...

Jonathan Nolan: ...the first two.

Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uwV8rddtKRgC&pg=PR8&dq=But+he+does+wind+up+breaking+it.&hl=en&sa=X&ei

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 23 Sep  2017, 10:54
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Thu, 21 Sep  2017, 04:14
Lies are like a sugar rush. They're short term and ultimately don't last. Truth is forever. Sure, TDK Rises miraculously had a crime-free Gotham thanks to the Dent Act, but Jokedy Joke Joke (JJJ) won the moral battle regardless of what Gordon and Batman sold to the public....and all three of them all knew it. 

Baleman only postponed Gotham's reckoning. And really, withholding the truth for so long only made the situation a tsunami. Think about it, folks. By covering up the truth about Dent, Baleman was smeared as a cop killer for about eight years. His name was mud. And guess what? When the truth came out, his name should still be mud, because he's now just a liar. Baleman was NEVER the moral beacon for Gotham City any way you look at it.

His only heroic deed was carrying the bomb out of Gotham. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror.

I've said before, and I'll say it once again: it boggles my mind that pretentious airheads argue that Joker won the moral battle, while still declaring TDK and TDKR as "inspirational" and "heroic" compared to BvS. To this day, I am astounded by the utter stupidity of these critics and fanboys. I feel as if we live in the world depicted in that film Idiocracy.

It's the classic "Nolan can do no wrong" tale. Still at this stage of his career Nolan hasn't learned how to shoot action or edit his films properly and yet rarely gets called out for it.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 23 Sep  2017, 10:54
I've said before, and I'll say it once again: it boggles my mind that pretentious airheads argue that Joker won the moral battle, while still declaring TDK and TDKR as "inspirational" and "heroic" compared to BvS.
Honestly, I think the only Batman film that truly qualifies as having an inspirational and heroic ending is B89. Danny Elfman's use of 'Finale' really cements my opinion....because that music screams heroism in a big way. It's total victory. The villain is defeated, his goons are rounded up, the hero stands victorious, and his girlfriend will be waiting back at home for him. BF and B&R end happily, but not triumphantly. Same thing with Begins. It's a good little scene but it's low key in comparison to B89. Burton and Elfman gave such a satisfying conclusion and release to their film that still manages to give me goosebumps. Batman retains his mystery but he steps out of the shadows. It's a really cool balance.