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Messages - Dagenspear

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Generally speaking, there is no left or right anymore. There's simply THE CORRECT WAY OF THINKING. And I don't care if you're homeless and sleeping under a bridge, or an esteemed and long respected comic writer living in a plush penthouse. If your opinion is stupid, I'll say so. No one is off limits. Batman is not the Punisher, but lives are still lost in his crusade. BvS made it painstakingly clear that Batman's methods had changed due to his sense of apathy and lost sense of control. But the facts don't matter for the anti BvS buffoons. May they suffer the same fate as BR's strongman.
Of course he's not Punisher, seemingly. The Punisher, as far as I know, has never tried to murder a for all intents and purposes innocent man. I don't see how the "why" of him killing people with no regard and trying to murder a for all intents and purposes innocent man in cold blood should matter to them. He still did it and the movie doesn't care that he did.

What's more pitiful to me is had Zack Snyder (or anyone else for that matter) directed TDKT and then said in an interview "Batman says he has one rule, but he winds up breaking it anyway" like Jonathan Nolan did, people would've tore him apart for having no regard for storytelling. The haters would say "OMG, Hack Snyder made a mistake and didn't bother to fix it, he clearly thinks the audience are idiots!" and "What was the point if the rule didn't really matter to Batman? Why didn't he kill the Joker then? WTF is wrong with you Snyder? Why did you waste two hours saying Batman won't kill but he actually does anyway? f*** you, Hack!". And they would've been justified in doing so.
I doubt it and no they wouldn't. Because having a rule doesn't mean it won't get broken. The rule does matter. The point is that personal issue of whether he can keep to it at all times. But that doesn't negate it. The context is key to how it's broken. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

It's amazing, isn't it? I remember for a long time how people described Bale being the darkest Batman, and people described that as a positive. But then comes Affleck and "dark" suddenly became a dirty word. Hmmm.

Despite how brutal Batman was in BvS, he's a guy who learns from his mistake for becoming this cynical beast and regains some faith and compassion once again in the end. That's quite a positive and redeemable trait. When has Bale ever learned from his mistakes?
That's the straight plot of TDKR. I think you miss the difference between 2 different kinds of dark. Heath Ledger's Joker is a dark character, but he's not Ben Affleck Batman dark or Christian Bale Batman dark. He's his own character version of dark. Christian Bale's Batman is a dark character in the nature of his character conflicts. Ben Affleck's Batman is, well, he's multiple purposeful killing dark. His character conflicts are really no darker than Baleman's. Batfleck's character is a purposeful killer with no remorse. Baleman is a troubled angry man who makes mistakes, big and small. Though Batfleck learning from his mistakes means nothing, because he still did them and will never be put in the position to face real consequences personally or legally as a character. The movie had his character be that way for no reason. And his character is still that. Baleman was never innocent as a character. But he was at least a character who tried to not be that. It was apart of his conflict as a character. Batfleck had no conflict like that and then the movie decided to throw it in at the last minute. He doesn't learn anything. He's just given the lesson at the end to excuse his character. It's cheap and poorly done. The movie doesn't care and no character cares that Batman kills people. MOS did something similar. This is why Beaton is generally accepted. His character was doing what he was doing and that's that. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

As a matter of fact, you can easily interpret the movie's message as if it's saying law and order won't ever work. After all, Alfred confesses to Bruce that he never wanted him to come back to Gotham because it was a place that brought him nothing but pain and tragedy, and Bruce leaves the city in the end. This gives me the impression that Bruce realises Gotham is irredeemable, and would rather give the keys to Batcave to Blake. As if he's saying "I quit. Good luck taking care of that sh*thole, it's your problem now". And let's not forget: the reason why Blake turns to vigilantism is because he lost all faith in law enforcement.
Bruce leaves because he understands that he can't be Batman anymore, not only is it bad for him emotionally, physically and mentally, he's not capable of being it. Alfred says it himself.
Seriously, this ending is far more cynical than people care to admit. But hey, let's not think about it too much because we're just glad that Bruce got a happy ending. No thanks.  As far as modern cinematic interpretations go, give me an ending where Batman rises above his powerlessness and blind rage with newly found gratitude, and continues to search for redemption as he forms the Justice League.
If you don't care about Bruce's character, then I don't know why you'd watch a story about him. Gotham's inability to move forward doesn't inhibit Bruce's ability, if he simply can't continue to be Batman physically. Bruce's character is the focus. His journey is what we're following, not Gotham's. More than anything, it's your interpretation that's cynical, not the ending. Moving on with your life and not destroying yourself with something you're not capable of anymore isn't cynical. What you want isn't what you've gotten. You've gotten Batman stopping being a killer, apparently, because Superman died. His actions not motivated by decency, friendship, honor or empathy. But just because.
Of course, Nolan tries to hide this lapse in logic by coming up with this "anyone can be Batman" bullcrap, but as it's discussed many times before, it doesn't make sense because inspiring copycats wasn't what Batman wanted in TDK.
Blake is someone Bruce picked, not a copycat. This ignores the fact that Bruce realized that a hero with a face isn't necessarily going to work. And that statement referred to anyone being Batman symbolically.
I'd feel strange to ask for a superhero movie to promote against vigilantism and favour law and order instead, but it was Nolan who wanted to explore this theme. Not the audience. It's Nolan's fault if his approach and exectution is a muddled mess.
You haven't said why it's a muddled mess to you, factually. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

You are aware that Lex wasn't always like that in the comics, right? He was a mad scientist for a long period of time, and the respected businessman persona didn't really come into play until the Post-Crisis era. No, you don't have to like it, but there is a precedent in the character's history.
Mad scientist Lex isn't what this movie put out really. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

Fan Fiction / Batman TV Series Pitch
« on: Fri, 17 Feb 2017, 01:50 »
Nathaniel Buzolic as Bruce Wayne/Batman

Shelley Hennig or Crystal Reed as Selina Kyle/Catwoman

Jack Coleman as Captain James Gordon/Commissioner Gordon

Sam Witwer as Harvey Dent/Two-Face

Brie Larson as Barbara Gordon/Batgirl/Oracle

Cody Christian as Richard "Dick" Grayson/Robin/Nightwing

Adam Godley as Alfred Pennyworth

Gillian Anderson as Dr. Leslie Thompkins

Chris Wood as The Red Hood/The Joker

Alison Brie as Dr. Harleen Quinzel/Harley Quinn

Lacey Chabert as Zatanna Zatara

Colin Morgan as Edward Nashton/Edward Nygma/The Riddler

Damien Lewis as Victor Fries/Mr. Freeze

Giancarlo Esposito as Professor Hugo Strange

Garret Dillahunt as Julian Day/The Calendar Man

Yvonne Strahovski as Jennifer Brigit Lynns/Firefly

Alexis Denisof as Victor Zsazz

Kevin Durand as Killer Croc

Mark A. Shephard as Oswald Cobblepot/Penguin

Courtney B. Vance as Lucius Fox

Enver Gojak as Roman Sionis/Black Mask

Mark Pellegrino as Kirk Langstrom/Man-Bat

Andrew Scott as Jonathan Crane/The Scarecrow

Claire Holt as Pamela Isley/Poison Ivy

Oded Fehr as Ra's Al Guhl

Laura Mennell as Talia Al Guhl

Daniel Sharman or Dylan O'Brien as Jervis Tetch/The Mad Hatter

Season 1 Episode List:

The Bat/Pilot: Bruce Wayne, just returning to Gotham City, decides to begin his battle against the mob and the corrupt police force after the daughter of the newly appointed Captain James Gordon, Barbara Gordon, is kidnapped in an attempt to gain leverage over one of the few non-corrupt members of the police force.

Dark Disguise: While spying on the mob families, Batman is interrupted by a mischievous thief that may be closer to him than he thinks, leading them both into the underground world of human trafficking when her young teen friend Holly is taken by the mob, forcing them to work together to save her.

Not So Smart: When a string of intelligence testing based murders begin, Batman is forced to use his mind to overcome his latest conflict. Meanwhile James Gordon tracks a lead to a possible identity of the Batman: Bruce Wayne.

Enough Days In The Week: Batman hopes to gain a more steady acceptance from the police by tracking down a notorious serial killer called the Calendar Man.

Like Father, Like Son: The Sionis crime family ignites the beginnings of a mob war, as they target Oswald Cobblepot and hire the assassin Deadshot to kill him, forcing Batman to protect a criminal in order to keep the peace.

The Birdcage: Batman has been captured. Trapped as a prisoner in Oswald Cobblepot's underground fighting ring, if he wants to live he will have to fight the champion of the cage, a mutated humanoid nicknamed Killer Croc, to the death.

Inspiration: Batman must utilize the help of an eye witness to another in a long list of serial killings done by the psychopath Victor Zsazz.

The Sincerest Form Of Flattery: Now that Batman has gained at least the begrudged acceptance of James Gordon, that'll be tested when someone impersonating Batman begins to murder the stars of a movie being shot in Gotham.

Eco-Friendly: After a strange chemical plant explosion that crumbles the building, leaving trees and plants grown in it's place and effecting a security guard in a slower but similar way, Batman is in a race against the clock to stop the mysterious eco-terrorist nicknamed Poison Ivy, gather her chemical extract and use it to cure the guard before his body becomes a plant breeding ground.

A Really Bad Day: When the Red Hood kidnaps the heads of Gotham's biggest crime families, Batman must discover his location before he enacts his plan to amass enough power to shape Gotham to fit his twisted vision.

The Long Halloween Part One: Leading up to and ending on Halloween. As Bruce is just now getting used to his life as Batman, he's hit with a wave unexpected changes in his life: the new craziness taking over Gotham, a criminal that leaves a smile on his victim's face, the murder of Carmine Falcone's nephew which threatens to reignite the war between the mobs and his new ward, one Dick Grayson.

Joke's On You: On Thanksgiving, as Bruce struggles with keeping Dick from discovering his life as Batman, a maniac calling himself the Joker threatens to poison the entire city's water supply unless batman can get to him in time.

Cold Blooded: When an icy figure begins targeting members of the Wayne enterprises board and freezing them, Batman begins investigating his company's past and discovers the death of scientist that was covered up, but finds himself unprepared when the Wayne enterprises pre Christmas fundraiser is attacked by that same man, who is now calling himself Mr. Freeze.

A Magician's Touch: Magician Zatanna Zatara comes to blows with Batman while she's searching for clues tied to a tabloid story about a zombie in the sewer attacking people. Meanwhile the Joker tries to enacts a scheme as a way to kill the Holiday Killer.

Lips Of Poison: Poison Ivy is back. More uncaring about human life than ever, the now human/plant hybrid has decided to initiate a one plant war against humanity, starting with the privileged of Gotham, who she most blames for the pollution of the environment, putting Bruce Wayne squarely in her sites.

Heads Or Tails: Harvey Dent is been kidnapped by Crime Boss Moroni who has rallied Black Mask and Penguin to his plan to lure Batman into a trap and kill him.

Batgirl: With Commissioner Gordon and Harvey Dent having disappeared, Batman tracks the mobsters he believes responsible, despite Barbara's insistence that it was someone else, forcing her to take matters into her own hands and find clues on her own.

A Mad Tea Party: A former disgraced scientist named Jervis Tetch uses mind controlling technology to bend the mob families to his will and impress the woman of his dreams to get her to love him.

Fan The Flames: As mysterious arsonist attacks plague Gotham's fire departments, Batman soon realizes that the vicious nature to the attacks points to a personal motivation and finds himself face to face with someone clad in advanced armor calling themself Firefly.

How To Catch A Bat: Edward Nygma sets up a sinister scheme to catch Batman and reveal his identity, proving that he is indeed the smarter out of the two of them, forcing Batman to confront his need for control.

Everything To Fear: When bullies and thugs start dying from extreme fear induced hallicinations, Batman is forced to face his fears by a psychopath trying to usurp his place of fear and respect in Gotham.

Holiday's End: With the Holiday Killer's identity having been discovered, Batman and Gordon enact a sting operation to catch the killer once and for all.

The Long Halloween Part Two: The Holiday Killer has been defeated. But the chessgame that he was a pawn of is coming to a head, with Batman's greatest weapon being used against him and Gotham: His mind.

End of season 1. Please tell me what you think! Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

Source: http://www.themovienetwork.com/article/dc-failures-brighten-dark-knight-trilogy-brilliance

 ::) Forgive me, but I need to rant. What a load of crap, but typical from hordes of hypocrites who defend TDK.

There's a lot of drivel from this article that makes me laugh. "Then when Superman did die, Bruce still talked about having hope even after the first 99 percent of the movie laughed off that notion altogether, in the absolute height of hypocrisy." This is absolutely rich, considering that this author conveniently forgot that Batman framing himself for Dent's crimes so the poor masses don't lose hope over the truth, totally contradicted his belief that "people are ready to believe in good" at the end of the boat scene.
It wasn't a contradiction.
Besides, what he said about BvS in that regard isn't even true. If he had paid any attention, he'd realise that despite all the prejudice and misguided hatred people had for Superman, he still sacrificed himself to save the planet; further inspiring Batman to regain hope and carry on his legacy. But somehow, this "brilliant" author missed that.
That doesn't come across as hopeful for humanity at all. People need someone to die saving them to make them change doesn't seem to make a good case for humanity, like the movie attempts to.
"Third-grade philosophy Snyder throws into his DC films"...right, as if Nolan is any better here.

I also think it's very rich to complain Eisenberg's Lex and his plans was nonsensical, while trying to justify TDK's Joker as "brilliant or logical". You mean like that whole Gordon faked death subplot that nobody could've anticipated? Or Joker says he hates plans despite the fact every he does is based on some planning and calculation? Or Dent would actually buy into Joker's idiotic monologue and suddenly become a cold-blooded killer...while at the same time, sparing Joker even though he ruined his life?! Yet people think they can complain about the Martha moment? Give me a break.
You always ignore the fact Harvey Dent is an insane man who, by his very character, is supposed to be insane being written to be insane. Gordon's faked death had nothing to do with anything. Joker never says that he hates plans. He says that he tries to show the schemers who try to control their little worlds how pathetic their attempts to control things are. The Joker, as far as he's concerned, doesn't do that. He doesn't have set plans or schemes to control things, to him. He, to him, just does things and goes with whatever happens. The Gothamites not blowing eachother up barely fazes him because he didn't have a real set plan that depended on that.
Hell, I don't even agree that Nolan knew exactly what he was doing with the Joker, since the Joker doesn't even get a proper conclusion, and there's no way he'd sit by and let the Dent cover-up take place. I didn't care for Suicide Squad that much and one of the reasons is because it had too many characters than it needed to have. But most of the characters in Nolan's films come across as plot devices, and poorly constructed ones at that.
That's not a problem in the movie.
Yeah, I know I'm repeating myself here, but I got to say it again: the most disturbing thing, and this writer isn't the only has said this, is TDK is described as "hopeful" and "uplifting". How?! It's a film that contradicts itself in every step of the way. There's nothing at all hopeful that Batman does, after all the fuss over his "one rule", he kills Two-Face to save a kid, which not only makes the whole moral dilemma with the Joker meaningless, but he could've spared Gotham so much trouble. The boat scene is nothing more but lip service, which Batman himself doesn't even believe in because he makes a cowardly decision that gives the entire town a false sense of security, which only allows Bane to take advantage of years later and uses it to subject the entire town into more misery. That's hopeful?! If TDK wanted out that message, it would've had Batman defeat Joker by revealing the truth about Harvey and people moving on, reinforcing that they ARE ready to believe in good. Otherwise, no they're not, and the message is hollow, and Batman taking the fall undermines every heroic thing he has ever done.
You try to define the movie by the main character's perceptions. The message of the movie isn't trying to say that whatever Batman believes is a reflection of the movie. On the contrary, Batman misunderstands the point. He thinks Batman is a negative effect. That's not true. But he thinks that because of his guilt over the Joker's actions, Rachel's death and Harvey's psychotic break. The uplifting oart is that, despite darkness that movie has, though not dour like BvS, Batman tries to achieve something good at the end in the midst of his personal tragedy and what happens to Harvey as well. The 2 sides of situations are displayed throughout the movie. The dark and light sides of humanity, in corrupt cops, mobsters, clean cops and the people of Gotham in general. The good in humanity can't erase the bad in humanity. Fighting is all we, as humans, can do. Harvey loses that fight within himself. But that doesn't take away hope, good or make the choice Batman makes, that despite Batman believing the same that Harvey did, that the humanity in Gotham can fall from doing good, he doesn't break under the same pressure that Harvey does. He tries to use it for what he thinks is a greater good. He's wrong in his actions of course. That's apart of his character arc, understanding that being Batman is generally unhealthy for him as a person, hence the unhealthy throwing of himself under the bus approach he takes. Though lying to protect people isn't out of character for Batman. In the comics Batman kept the truth of Tony Zucco being alive from Dick to protect him. And on Gotham [spoiler=]Bruce just did the same in regards to knowing Selina's mom was conning her.[/spoiler] You may ask, why is self destruction and unhealthiness is okay to do with Batman and not Superman. Well, that's Batman's character. Guilt, anger, unhealthiness is in the character. It's the difference BvS misses. Superman doesn't have to be sunny or carefree, SV Clark and TAS Clark sure weren't, same SR Clark. But they also weren't stone cold in the way BvS was that is so hung up on its issues that it doesn't try to show Superman as a character nearly as often as it should. This is Superman's movie, but his character barely gets the time to really show his character as a more than 2 dimensional cutout for Batman to punch at the end and get Batman to wanting to get the JL. In the TC of course. I don't pay to see a movie twice anymore. I will say that Henry Cavill's scenes as Clark in the TC were the only times I felt he has dimension. TDKT achieved this with Bruce, not always perfectly, but did achieve it.
I'll just sum up this post, BvS is hardly perfect, and despite watching the UE, I still have my own personal gripes with it. I think it's too long, and I'll honestly say it can be a drag at times. But at least I can appreciate that movie for having heroes come to terms with their failures and redeem themselves in the end, and show bravery despite being treated with scorn and distrust. That's a lot more of positive and hopeful than anything I got from TDKT. You tell me which is more heroic: Superman charging at Doomsday with the Kryptonite spear despite knowing he could get killed and declaring his determination to protect a divisive world that mostly doubted or despised him...or Batman faking his death for no real reason, and decides to leave Gotham because it's a place that gives him misery; while at the same time, he gives the keys to the Batcave to someone else?
You misunderstand the point of TDKR if you think the point is to make Bruce look heroic. The point is fulfilling his character arc as a man who lets go of his misery and pain and moves on from his problems and is able to have a more stable life. The movie fails the Superman character in this way, not by failing to make him look heroic, but by trying to make him look heroic at the expense of story and his character. Superman doesn't have a character arc in this movie by sacrificing himself. He would do that always. Clark achieves no real character growth by this experience and his choice at the end doesn't reflect his character growth. He would always do that, because he's not evil. His character is just thrown to the wolves to have Batman assemble the JL.
There's a whole lot of rubbish in this article, but I've said enough. TDK's greatest legacy is you can never under-estimate how a cult-minded following can brainwash anyone. The fact it's considered to be some kind of masterpiece is a travesty.
That's intense and insulting to people. It's not perfect, no movie is, but your reasons against it seem to mostly be faulty. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

I'm sure he has a mental illness of some sort. Just like Bruce does. That doesn't mean anything for the quality of the movie. Because the question "Why do they have mental illnesses?" is still there. And "Why spend more than one scene trying to explain their motivations when it doesn't really matter to them, they're mentally ill, that's their motivation?" It's the pointlessness of the movie. Of course Superman's issue is different. He clearly doesn't have a mental illness, but the movie will still have his motivation make no real legit sense. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

And to think there are people who call BvS an unmitigated disaster. But as long as one movie gets called that, while the other gets overpraised despite how terrible and muddled its messages are, the critics are always objectively correct. Right?  ::)
The messages weren't muddled or, as I understand it, terrible.
I think Talia and Bane were always going to take over Gotham anyway because they wanted to get revenge at Batman for killing Ra's. But yes, Batman and Gordon's cover-up made the situation much worse and gave Bane the opportunity to take advantage of the situation.
Not really. By virtue of Batman not being around I guess, but in no real way other than that.
The fact that Gordon wrote the letter because he felt guilty about the cover-up, but was still too afraid to tell the truth, tells me that lying for eight years wasn't worth it.
If Batman actually backed up his belief that "this city has proven that they're ready to believe in good" by telling the truth by the end of TDK, he could've saved Gotham so much trouble. It actually would've saved the movie for me too.
Why? Batman can't be flawed and make mistakes and make bad choices? The whole point is that he did something wrong. The movie doesn't need to be saved. You didn't like it. That doesn't make it bad. Batman believed that he wasn't the cause of Gotham being ready to believe in good. He saw himself as a catalyst for the awful things that had happened by the Joker and Harvey.
Apologists love to counter-argue by claiming Batman's cover-up could be seen as a moral victory for the Joker, but I call bullsh*t on that because the Joker would never allow the city to go without chaos for eight years.
This is something a hater would say, considering that I think the only kind of moral victory Joker achieved, if he did, was that Batman compromised himself, not even necessarily on purpose by his, Joker's, doing.
The decision to cover up Two-Face's crimes has got to be the worst thing that Batman has ever done in live action to date.
That's trying to murder a for all intents and purposes innocent man.

I made this point in another thread, but I'll post it here too.

If the message in TDKR is saying that it's wrong to enact a law that's predicated on a lie, which is what the Dent Act was...then how the hell can anyone in their right minds argue that TDK had an 'uplifting' and 'inspiring' ending?

No logic whatsoever.
That's the point. It was the wrong thing to do. But it's a heroic choice at the time because Bruce is taking responsibility for the crimes that he believes he's the cause for, whether he committed them or not. Not to mention that he's not being a hero in that moment as Alfred says. TDKR shows that making a single heroic choice and doing the wrong thing in the process, a "necessary evil" if you will, doesn't necessarily work. The whole point is that you can't achieve good like that. It's not really heroic, not purely, because it's a dirty choice. TDKR acknowledges this in Jim's line about how Batman plunged his hand into the filth. It's a dirty choice to try and end the problem for good, but that's not how that works and you can't end crime like that. It won't just end because we compromise what we know is right to achieve it. It all plays nicely into Bruce's choice at the end, where even though he can't fight forever, Batman will always be needed, because you can't just clean up crime in one sweep and "bury it", it will always be there in the world as it is. So Bruce lets go of his obsession and allows someone else to have that mission. It's not illogical. It's exploring the consequences of a choice. Bruce made an active choice to be Batman at the end of BB, and we see the consequences in TDK, and in TDK he chooses to throw himself under the bus for the crimes of Harvey, because he thinks that it will help the city achieve something more than vigilante justice, because he believes that him being Batman is the reason the Joker exists, that Rachel died and that Harvey became the way he was, so we explore the consequences of that choice in TDKR. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

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