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You can discuss every spoiler, moment, scene, line etc from Justice League in this thread:

Fire away!

What did you guys think about the post credit scenes?

I got to see the movie.

Look....I gotta be real because you know I'm real. Justice League is not a bad movie, it's just not spectacular and I feel like it could've been better.

Here's my main gripes. The two hour length. The scene transitions are rather abrupt and there needed to be more room for everything to breathe and develop. What bugs me is how they've cut scenes short or omitted them completely. Small stuff like Bruce driving away with Barry in the Mercedes. I just really hope they release these scenes in an extended cut. They must have really wanted the Theatrical Cut to be two hours.

I liked Superman's portrayal for the most part. Let's unpack what we're given:

He turns his head while Flash is in the Speed Force. So he's as fast as The Flash or very comparable. He's punches Steppenwolf and the other heroes around like they're twigs (and puts Batman in his place). He uses freeze breath for the first time. He shoots heat vision and flies away with an apartment building. He does the shirt rip.However I can't shake the feeling his content is too minor and lacking significance somehow. No Zimmer Superman theme is used either. Only the DNA motif in the birthing chamber.

The manner in which he is resurrected is okay (it's one of the film's better scenes), but again, I feel like this plotline could've been even better, and I actually suspect Snyder had something else in mind before the studio intervened. What we actually get is safe and bland. They gloss over it too. Oh well.

There's no reaction from the world in regards to Superman's resurrection. Nothing about how Clark (in his reporter outfit) could walk back into the Daily Planet even though he's meant to be dead - though I GUESS that still could be addressed in a future film. I think these things should have been touched upon and I think we deserved that. Justice League is too breezy for its own good at times.

I suspect the hole in Clark's chest healed when the Mother Box hit the water...but I'm just guessing. The Kent Farm is up for sale and Bruce saves it by buying the bank. That's nice and pure Bruce Wayne...but I didn't really feel anything. Things just sort of happen in the movie, if that makes sense.

I also couldn't ignore the CGI mouth they gave Superman because of the moustache saga. Once you pick up on it, it's hard for it not to be distracting. It sounds like I'm being petty and I wish I was. But that's just how I feel at the moment.

Apart from these things, I still managed to like parts of the movie. Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman is simply amazing. I think she's the best character in the film and indeed the whole DCEU. Batfleck is still solid. Batman fans should be pretty happy with his portrayal here - he's still the leader as far as I'm concerned. I'll say more about him later at some point. This post is mainly about my general feelings - what didn't sit well with me.

The jokes were okay, but some don't stick and shouldn't have been made. Steppenwolf is better than those Suicide Squad villains (not very difficult) but he doesn't compare to Zod or Lex. I actually don't think he's awful. He has some good lines here and there. Steppenwolf isn't really a deep character to begin with. He arrives at a world and starts swinging his axe. But again, I feel like things could've been better.

I'd probably give the film a 6/10 or something at the moment. It's a bit like Quantum of Solace following Casino Royale. Justice League is better than Suicide Squad but for me, it doesn't reach the heights of MoS, BvS or WW - and my passion for it just isn't the same. Again, I think an extended cut would help the film out. I just really hope we get one. There's definitely additional material there.

Overall, I liked it quite a bit. It was what I was expecting: a lighter tone, lots of character/team moments, and a lot of action. I knew we weren't getting another MOS or BvS, so I wasn't expecting the same tone. A lot of the jokes worked for me, and the audience I saw it with. I want to see more from Flash and Cyborg, and I hope Affleck sticks around, cause he was great in this. Again, I really liked it.

As for the CGI complaints, I didn't really care that much. Steppenwolf looked fine enough. If I can pass The Hulk in the MCU, I can easily pass Steppenwolf. Is he an obvious CG character? Yes, but again, I can easily suspend my disbelief already for The Hulk, and he basically looks like a cartoon compared to the live actors next to him. As far as Superman's lip goes, I didn't notice it at all, until the mid-credit scene. That was it, and I was looking hard for it. So him in the movie was unnoticeable for me. But yes, in the mid-credits, it was apparent.

I'm seeing it again on the weekend with a bunch of friends, so I'll see how I like it after a second time.

But I'm about Batman, and as said, I liked his portrayal here.

The opening scene with the criminal and the parademon? Top stuff. He's depicted as an athletic detective who interrogates people just like the Arkham games, and doesn't back away from explosions (very similar to Arkham Batman when he uses explosive gel).

We see him use the grappling gun several times to move around, which I appreciated.

But what I REALLY liked about this Batman was how he was realistically portrayed in battle without losing any of his masculinity. For example, Batman battles a big parademon (any human is going to struggle against one of these), and he calls in the Nightcrawler. He shoots them up, but the vehicle is soon attacked, not fatally - but nearly. Batman has tricks up his sleeve, but they're not going to be completely devastating to these enemies. But he does fight back and these tools do get him through encounters. The brief sequence of the Nightcrawler taking the heroes up the wall, in order to escape the flood, was really good, and reminded me of Batman Forever. Batman saves the heroes and they survive, even if they didn't win either.

I liked how we saw the Nightcrawler back in the batcave, suggesting it was being repaired after the battle.

Same thing with the Flying Fox in the final battle. Batman shoots his missiles to disable the shield, and shortly after the ship crashes. But he basically planned for that, given he immediately drives out the back ramp in the Batmobile. He's creative and selfless, as shown when he broadcasting the parademon signal to himself to draw them away from the other League members. He's always moving forward despite setbacks. For example, the Batmobile eventually falls off a cliff, but Batman uses a rocket ejector seat and keeps fighting while in midair. Batman is about using all of your available resources to survive and still get the job done...despite the odds.

Bruce buys the bank to save Clark's home. Top stuff. I'm not sure if Bruce gave Barry the reference for the job, but I'm thinking he did. Which is again a nice touch. I noticed that when he's talking to Diana outside the lakehouse he's wearing a coat similar to something he wore in TDK Returns, too.

Superman may have dominated Batman after he was resurrected (obviously), but Bruce did have his backup plan in Lois to defuse the situation. So that's where the prep time angle comes into play. One or two lines were iffy, but for the most part I thought his dialogue was okay.

My beef mostly lies with the editing, the runtime and the moustache issue. I can't really fault Affleck or the portrayal at all.

So I liked it but I had problems with it. Mainly, I could sense where the movie was missing something and where stuff was patched in. Right from the start actually. It felt like things were moved around for the opening. There's the video footage of Superman and following that we get a great scene with Batman before reaching the main title sequence. I really liked the scene with Batman, but I don't think the three sequences work well together and it definitely seems like there was some sort of shifting.  The scene with Superman was definitely a late minute pickup, as the CGI upper lip is very obvious, and I think this scene, or at least a better version of this scene, could have worked had it led into the Superman-centric main title sequence and then I think the Batman scene should have followed, perhaps after Wonder Woman's introduction? I'm not sure.

Overall, editorially speaking, the flow was rather inconsistent, for which The Dark Knight detailed the abrupt and awkward transitions in his post.

I kept thinking about what Snyder's true version of this film would have been. The Knightmare scene from BvS comes to mind. Clearly, that scene wasn't meant to be a dream. Whether or not that will still play a part is beyond me, but if I had to guess, this film was supposed to address it, not a later film.

The climactic battle felt like it was missing something, but I really enjoyed the bumper at the end with Deathstroke and Lex.

Am I the only one who felt something was off during the scene with Lois and Clark in the field? Cavill's performance seemed different to me, and not just from the other two films, but from the rest of the film, as well. I kinda felt like something is also missing from his re-introduction, perhaps a bit more time with him adjusting? A part of me even wondered how much of Superman's scenes during the final battle were either added or changed, perhaps to give us the Superman people said they wanted but will probably trash too.

Either way, there seems to be at least two different visions for this film, but neither are fully realized, just cobbled together to form an incomplete thought. I liked this movie, I swear I did.

Quote from: GoNerdYourself on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 01:36
I liked this movie, I swear I did.

I know what you mean. I walked out of the cinema feeling conflicted, not really knowing how to feel. It's good, but should've been way better. That's all I can really say. WB really need to stop screwing around in the editing bay.

I saw JL today. Despite my disappointment over a lot of the footage and dialogue we saw and heard in the trailers didn't feature in the final cut, and the lack of the world's reaction and follow-up to Superman's return from the dead, I can put all of that aside and say it was still an enjoyable film to watch. It felt like a DC Universe Animated Original movie coming to life, and I thought it totally celebrated all of the JL heroes.

I really appreciated Batman's redemption arc that started in the last half hour of BvS coming to full circle here, as he plans to use the Mother Box to revive Superman, and even showed that enormous leap of faith in Clark. A far cry from his paranoid, cynical self we saw in the beginning of BvS. I thought the character development was complete as he helps buy the Kent farm back from foreclosure, and looks to restore Wayne Manor.

As for the CGI surrounding Cavill's face? I noticed a bit of it, but it didn't bother me. After all, I've seen other movies with very fake-looking CGI but they don't necessarily break it for me. For example, the CGI for Tarkin and Leia's faces in Rogue One didn't look real at all. But it didn't stop me from enjoying Rogue One.

I've some stupid misguided feminists/critics complaining about the supposed sexism in JL. For example, the Amazon costumes were allegedly more skimpy than the Wonder Woman film. That is utter bullsh*t. The costumes were no more revealing nor did the film objectify any of the women at all. Another example is some people are up in arms about the Flash falling on top of Wonder Woman, and immediately got up as if there was some awkward moment of sexual innuendo. I say that's innocent compared to Drax's arguably sexist and degrading treatment of Mantis in GOTG2, but I didn't see the critics didn't notice or care about that, now did they? Seriously, their hatred for Zack Snyder is even more toxic than my distaste for Chris Nolan's films. They just appear to hate Snyder as a human being, call him a sexist...and yet, they appear to be silent when someone like Devin Faraci and Andy Signore are guilty of sexually harassing women. Figures.

Here is a compilation of all the trailer footage that was deleted from the final cut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC_XYBWjsSw

Wow, I just looked around on a few sites and forums, and the hate this movie is getting is probably worse than BvS. It's out of control. And I can't tell you how many reviews have used the phrase "male gaze", as a huge form of criticism of the movie, and somehow trying to say Snyder is a sexist. Normally, I don't give a sh*t about critics, but what I'm seeing is like nothing else. It's just....odd.

And then there's this review by Mark Kermode. He even said, "This is the kind of film which, by comparison, Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin is a masterclass in coherence, in character development, in razor sharp storytelling". If that's not the definition of "hyperbole", I don't know what is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=hsLcTO2a0Ec

Quote from: Travesty on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 17:48
And then there's this review by Mark Kermode. He even said, "This is the kind of film which, by comparison, Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin is a masterclass in coherence, in character development, in razor sharp storytelling". If that's not the definition of "hyperbole", I don't know what is.

That is beyond exaggeration. I think the film for me falls on the same level as Batman Forever and Superman II. It has a lot of issues, but is still worth watching. People trying to play this up as a complete train wreck either haven't seen a real train wreck (Jaws the Revenge, Troll 2, King Kong Lives, The Room, Birdemic) or are just riding the hype train (next stop something else) or both, probably both. (Although, personally, I think most of the Transformer movies make B&R look like Citizen Kane, but even that's hyperbole.)

Quote from: Travesty on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 17:48
Wow, I just looked around on a few sites and forums, and the hate this movie is getting is probably worse than BvS. It's out of control. And I can't tell you how many reviews have used the phrase "male gaze", as a huge form of criticism of the movie, and somehow trying to say Snyder is a sexist. Normally, I don't give a sh*t about critics, but what I'm seeing is like nothing else. It's just....odd.

That sexist accusation is a LIE. There was absolutely nothing offensive or objectifying of any women in this film at all. These bastards should take a look at Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, and see how Drax talks to Mantis. But don't give a f***, do they? All they could say "it's fun".

Quote from: Travesty on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 17:48
And then there's this review by Mark Kermode. He even said, "This is the kind of film which, by comparison, Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin is a masterclass in coherence, in character development, in razor sharp storytelling". If that's not the definition of "hyperbole", I don't know what is.

Kermode has proven to be a complete and utter tool. Every one of these pathetic critics who make up slanderous claims and misrepresents movies should be fired. If anybody didn't see Batman's character development in this film, at the very least, they're lying on purpose, or they're hopelessly braindead. But what do you expect, these people think Christopher Nolan's Batman films are intelligent.

There's nothing wrong in criticising movies, but when I read slanderous garbage like that, I'm seriously convinced there's an agenda going on there. I was never personally a Zack Snyder fan and he has his flaws, but now I've come to realise that he's nowhere near as bad as these liars are saying. What the hell is going on here? Did Snyder do something to piss off the industry? Is there politics going on behind the scenes we don't know about? Because if somebody like Nolan and a company like Marvel can get away with glaring faults, then I see no reason for the criticism of Snyder to be this vitriolic. It's an absolute disgrace.

Quote from: Travesty on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 17:48
Wow, I just looked around on a few sites and forums, and the hate this movie is getting is probably worse than BvS. It's out of control. And I can't tell you how many reviews have used the phrase "male gaze", as a huge form of criticism of the movie, and somehow trying to say Snyder is a sexist. Normally, I don't give a sh*t about critics, but what I'm seeing is like nothing else. It's just....odd.

And then there's this review by Mark Kermode. He even said, "This is the kind of film which, by comparison, Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin is a masterclass in coherence, in character development, in razor sharp storytelling". If that's not the definition of "hyperbole", I don't know what is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=15&v=hsLcTO2a0Ec

They're so predictable and ridiculous. It's a competition between critics of who can rip the movie apart with the most hyperbolic language. The level of hate is to the point of parody. The same people who hated BvS and slammed it for being 'too dark' are hating on JL because it's 'lighter' and a 'poor man's Avengers substitute'. There's no pleasing them. The same old haters are STILL hating, but now because DC gave them what they asked for.

If this had a Marvel logo on it, critics would be FAWNING.

And what annoys me possibly more than the critics are the dumb sheep who glimpse at the Tomato Meter and then say "ugh, they screwed up again, I'm not seeing this." I have issues with the movie, but to say 'bring back George Clooney' is attention seeking rubbish. I am utterly done with this game they play, which is trying to discourage the fan base with a monster pile on.

Quote from: GoNerdYourself on Sat, 18 Nov  2017, 21:55
That is beyond exaggeration. I think the film for me falls on the same level as Batman Forever and Superman II. It has a lot of issues, but is still worth watching. People trying to play this up as a complete train wreck either haven't seen a real train wreck (Jaws the Revenge, Troll 2, King Kong Lives, The Room, Birdemic) or are just riding the hype train (next stop something else) or both, probably both. (Although, personally, I think most of the Transformer movies make B&R look like Citizen Kane, but even that's hyperbole.)

Yep. It's really silly.

This is very interesting. Forbes reviewers Mark Hughes has come out and claimed his review of JL was somehow posted on Rotten Tomatoes without his consent, and it was labeled "rotten" despite it was anything but negative.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOyodV4VwAEgXOd.jpg)

He elaborates more here: https://twitter.com/markhughesfilms/status/931306275413090305

I remember somebody once mentioned that Rotten Tomatoes' binary aggregate system is deeply flawed because it immediately labels mixed reviews as negative. This is an screenshot somebody uploaded on that Twitter Feed, comparing the mixed reviews between Thor Ragnarok and BvS. Pay close attention to the rating each of these reviewers gave the movie, yet one movie is called "fresh" while the other is "rotten".

(https://i.imgur.com/178QJwv.jpg)

It doesn't make any sense, does it?

I'm just dropping off my review below, but will make it a point in reading read all of you guy's reviews when I get time later today or tomorrow.


---



Justice League is a film I would describe as far from perfect. An enjoyable "fun" ride, but something I would consider a step back from MOS, BvS, and WW. I agree with the consensus that JL is a better film than Suicide Squad, but at the same time, I distinctly remember commenting in the SS thread that that particular film was the most "MCU" out of the DCEU films thus far. Well, that's no longer the case anymore. JL has taken over the reigns with that distinction.

The production issues are pretty upfront and center, being painfully obvious to the viewer. It's 121 minutes and you can feel it that it has been cut down to size to include only what pushes the plot forward. Some scenes come acrosss as ending abruptly, which leaves you with a sense that there should've been more. And from what I can tell, there was. The editing is, I suppose, more competent than SS ended up being, but the tone didn't come across as consistent. Atleast to me. I can't sit here and name you every instance a Whedon directed scene complete with the Whedonisms pops up, I'll leave that to those who are more keen with that, but the film opens up feeling like a Zack Snyder movie, especially with the "Everybody Knows" track, but ends up coming across like a more watchable standard MCU team up movie by the time the end credits role.

Anyways, to the league itself:

Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman is outstanding as always. She gets a decent arc and enough screentime, with good action scenes. I noticed that a good portion of her scenes as Diana Prince has alot of ass shots, and that works for me. Ah ha ha ha oh hee hee ha. I really liked seeing the Old Gods during the flashback battle with Steppenwolf and his hordes. We see Artemis (love the glowing arm and bow), what i can only assume is Zeus, and a buddy said he saw Ares. Also, the alien Green Lantern was a nice cameo. In addition, I was satisfied that the Amazon's weren't just there to get smacked down by Steppenwolf to prove him being a serious threat. They put up a good fight and went above and beyond, displaying of just how impressive and determined they are.

Ben Affleck as Batman is, again, enjoyable to watch. I think he did the best he could do with what was given, but unfortunately I didn't leave the theater thinking he had his moment to shine in battle as a member of the league like he did in BvS. I guess you could sorta count Batman shooting parademons inside the Batmobile being his action moment, but there never was that sort of level like "Batman saving Martha Kent" scene with JL. Maybe I'll change my mind upon my 2nd viewing, but I just don't think it was there. To me, the highlights with Affleck's Batman in JL come during the one-on-one dialogue he has with Gal's Diana. Discussing their history, their different opinons on how to battle Steppenwolf, and not being shy about referring to Steve Trevor as Diana's "dead boyfriend", which seems like a Batman-like thing he would do anyways. In my estimation, these were his most memorable scenes.

Jason Mamoa as Aquaman. I can dig this version of Aquaman. I thought the scenes of Bruce going out to find him, and his reluctance to take part in anything Affleck's Bruce was cooking to be pretty good. I thought the stuff with Mera and the Atlanteans was, even though brief, ok, and the idea that they are essentially hydromancers who don't swim per se, letting the water move them rather, was a different cool approach. Though in alot of ways, I think all that stuff could have waited until the Aquaman movie. Perhaps with Aquaman only referring to Atlantis and his people, rather than us actually seeing them in JL. I think Mamoa's Aquaman plays off of others well, and the scene where's he's being "truthful" about his thoughts on the other leaguers not knowing he's under Wonder Woman's lasso's spell was pretty hilarious.

Ezra Miller as Flash. Well, I actually liked this guy alot more than I was thinking I would going into this movie. Course he very much comes across as more Wally West from the DCAU's JL/JLU than he does Barry Allen, but I thought he balanced being likeable, the comic relief, the fan boy, and not end up coming across as completely annoying quite well. A Flashpoint movie seems like it would be alot more fun now, and similar to Season One of CW's Flash, I can see how Barry's inexperience is going to play a factor in being outclassed by the DCEU Reverse Flash in Flashpoint. Assuming he's in it.

Ray Fisher as Cyborg. Definitely the most underdeveloped leaguer in the whole movie. From what I gather, his background was more fleshed out under Zack Snyder's original cut for JL, and it's a shame that stuff was cut, but this can be mended.  He deserves his own movie, I think the the character's potential is too potent to be regulated as only appearing in JL movies.

Henry Cavill as Superman is awesome like usual. Not a ton of screentime for him, but he makes it count. From the opening flashback handheld shot scene, I have to say I really dug Superman's reaction to the kid's question. That is a beautiful Superman moment, and probably stands as one of my favorite film Superman moments ever. The Clark/Lois was good, and seeing Martha reunite with her son was nice. Also, I have to say that moment where he's taking on the Justice League following his resurrection, and Superman's eyes slowly turn toward a already zooming-past Flash, with Flash' reaction being completely stunned. Classic stuff! Cavill is a beast playing a bad-ish Superman immediately following his coming back from the dead, but if it were up to me, I would have atleast had Aquaman and especially Wonder Woman be more of a challenge to him than what was ultimately conveyed. Batman was obviously grossly overmatched. Flash couldn't rely on his speed against Superman, which was his only go to. Aquaman and Cyborg couldn't hang. Wonder Woman got some licks in (especially that headbutt retort!), but she too felt like she was incredibly overwhelmed by Superman's power. I am not such a WW fanboy to suggest she just totally kick his ass with ease, cause that wouldn't happen, but a more competitive fight between the two would have been better I think. Especially with her experience, and hell, for awhile she was practically holding Doomsday at bay! I guess I have comics like the over-sized Teasurey Edition Superman vs. Wonder Woman from the 1970's, and a "Countdown to Infinite Crisis" issue of Wonder Woman where she's clearly the underdog, but can indeed toss Superman around and knock him back 100 yards away with a punch.   

Another thing that kinda got on my nerves, was when Superman comes back, he's so happy and 100% Superman-like, that it came across so unearned. BvS took a more 'real world approach' to the material. Giving us the politics of such a being showing himself to the world, and the world being decidedly split on Superman's role on earth. So while he was a beacon to a lot of people, he was also hated by a lot as well. This was a huge conflict for Superman on both sides and it honestly never got truly resolved in a satisfactory way. With one half, Superman is hated and is bothered by the backlash, with the other half. he's worshipped and appears to be uncomfortable with that notion as well. I get that Superman's death in BvS was supposed to have, I guess, change alot of people's minds about him. However with the narrative from BvS, I think for those who didn't like Superman initially, and perhaps softened on their dislike following his death, would be especially unnerved by him coming back from the dead. To me, that would likely exasperate the anxiety for those who had a problem about his presence on earth. He can do whatever he wants, when he wants, aaand can't be killed?!? For the other side, it would probably exasperate their hero-worship of him. Course I don't expect to see this address in any future DCEU film. Especially with Zack Snyder gone, and WB clearly wanting to take the 'shared universe' set of films to something more simple and family friendly, but yeah, It felt too much like a course correction and not at all like a natural development.

Speaking of Snyder, and talking about this film, it really makes me wonder what his original cut of JL looked like.... According to the net, it was supposedly deemed, 'unwatchable', but the net can often be incredibly unreliant. Wasn't it reported shortly before Wonder Woman premiered that it was a mess of a film? Yeah right. From what I gather, I think it's easy to surmise that in Snyder's WB/Whedon-less version, Superman was probably brought back to life by Steppenwolf and was evil/brainwashed for at least most of the movie. The Jurassic Park-esque scene from one of the trailer's of Superman approaching Alfred in the Batcave and Alfred remarking, "Let's hope you're not too late.", which BTW, isn't in the film, kinda gives off this impression. Much more so than what we're given in the final film. In addition, the dirt levitating from Superman's coffin at the end of BvS doesn't make a ton of sense with the theatrical cut of JL. Seems like Whedon deleted all of that out, along with any Knightmare references, which is a shame, and decided to go with a very awkward situation where the League decides to dig up Superman's body and resurrect him themselves. 

Lastly the big bad, Steppenwolf. Well, atleast he's consistent with his comic book counterpart. Underdeveloped, and very one dimensional. I mean, he's ok, but clearly he's there to just get the plot moving along. It's too bad his cameo was cut from the theatrical cut of BvS, since that foreshadowing would have made the whole thing flow in better. Especially for the very casual audience who saw BvS in the theater, but might not have watched the Director's Cut. Overall, I guess Steppenwolf was effective enough in that we understood what he was doing and why were clear. I was kinda surprised how easily Steppenwolf was overpowered by Superman, but once again, JL decidedly wanted to highlight Superman. Even at the expense of the other characters.

On the whole, I know it probably sounds like I hated the film, but I really didn't. There's some good here, if there's a extended cut, I'm not going to lie and act like I wouldn't be interested in seeing that. However, I just wish I didn't leave the theater feeling as if there was a missing film between BvS and this one.

This movie isn't even making $100 million on opening weekend. It's the lowest opening to any DCEU movie. I wouldn't be surprised if Aquaman is their last DCEU movie, and they reboot with Matt Reeves on Batman.

Quote from: Travesty on Sun, 19 Nov  2017, 22:05
This movie isn't even making $100 million on opening weekend. It's the lowest opening to any DCEU movie. I wouldn't be surprised if Aquaman is their last DCEU movie, and they reboot with Matt Reeves on Batman.

That's the danger. WB may be waiting this out, along with Affleck, Cavill, etc. Say they want to come back but the studio pulled the plug and went in another direction. I hope that doesn't happen of course, but it does make you think.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 20 Nov  2017, 00:12

Quote from: Travesty on Sun, 19 Nov  2017, 22:05
This movie isn't even making $100 million on opening weekend. It's the lowest opening to any DCEU movie. I wouldn't be surprised if Aquaman is their last DCEU movie, and they reboot with Matt Reeves on Batman.

That's the danger. WB may be waiting this out, along with Affleck, Cavill, etc. Say they want to come back but the studio pulled the plug and went in another direction. I hope that doesn't happen of course, but it does make you think.

If they scrap the DCEU, I don't think I'll ever watch another DC live action adaptation ever again. Without the likes of Affleck, Cavill and Gadot together, there's no point sticking around. and I'm not interested in seeing another actor donning the cowl for Matt Reeves.

I hope I'm wrong, but if the worst scenario does happen and the DCEU is shelved, the only thing we can do is treat MOS, BvS and JL as a trilogy of sorts. Some fans on Twitter are calling it the Superman trilogy, while others are describing it as the "Dawn of Justice" trilogy. The latter part makes more sense to me.

Whenever I think about what could've and should've been the anger rises. Battle lines need to be drawn. I stand with Zack Snyder. I stand with directors getting to realize their visions completely without gutless and weak studios butting in. The movie isn't making big money. I'd like the DCEU to continue, but it is what it is.

Honestly, if this means Hollywood burns to the ground I'm okay with that. I'm content with watching old movies that are usually better anyway. Screw them. These appeasers tried to please the critics but only pissed off the current fan base. And listen up - Supes was strong, but that wasn't a character. That was a two dimensional cartoon character with barely any depth. But dudes, he was smiling more! That's all that matters right?!

One hack from one of these clickbait sites who took advantage of covering negative stories about the franchise had this to say:

Quote
We re-watched BATMAN V SUPERMAN last night and you know what? It's superior to JUSTICE LEAGUE. It just is, and in almost every way

https://twitter.com/JLDlite/status/932337577142624256

Mind you, one of the tweets in that thread above actually linked an article that suggested JL would've been better if Snyder was given full control. Unf***ingbelievable! If this becomes the media's new narrative.... >:(

I truly despise the entertainment media. Just as corrupt as the industry itself.

I can't see WB scraping the DCEU in light of the weak box office returns.

Whatever is going on with Affleck right now is questionable, but deciding to just start over again doesn't make a whole lot of sense if even in a purely business standpoint when you know that WB wants a Wonder Woman 2 WITH Gal Gadot and Patty Jenkins in the worst way. In addition, Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn went over extremely well with the public and doing away with any future sequels/spinoffs with her as Harley Quinn would be a hastily foolish decision. Henry Cavill is another I highly doubt WB wants to lose as well.

If anything, the notion of a Justice League 2, and all the money that goes along with producing such a expensive project, is now on a indefinite hold. I really don't see the DCEU going anywhere, but the budgets going forward are likely going to be in a $150-200 million range tops, rather than the $300 million that was afforded to JL.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 20 Nov  2017, 11:52

If they scrap the DCEU, I don't think I'll ever watch another DC live action adaptation ever again. Without the likes of Affleck, Cavill and Gadot together, there's no point sticking around. and I'm not interested in seeing another actor donning the cowl for Matt Reeves.

Nah, I'll never be done. The characters are bigger than any actor, director or box office numbers. I was there for the crumbling of live action Batman with B&R, and I'll be here for whatever else comes out. You have highs and lows, and I'm no fairweather fan. I'll take it all, even if it's not my cup of tea, or even if it's not as successful as I wish it would be. All you can do is be excited for new movies, comics, shows and games, and just hope that whatever they release is quality. That's all.

Theres dozens of ways to interpret these characters, it's not as if the current cast and crew is the only hope. I think the DCEU will continue, they may not be meeting production goals they set for themselves but none of the films have bombed and they do have one financial success to hang their hats on. Fan reaction should be taken with a grain of salt. There are fanboy groups out there such as Marvel fans and Nolan fans who will hate on any DC project no matter who is involved. We're kidding ourselves if we're pretending that the IMDB wasn't flooded on opening day by fanboys voting 1 without seeing it. Such should be taken with a grain of salt.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 20 Nov  2017, 11:52If they scrap the DCEU, I don't think I'll ever watch another DC live action adaptation ever again. Without the likes of Affleck, Cavill and Gadot together, there's no point sticking around. and I'm not interested in seeing another actor donning the cowl for Matt Reeves.

I hope I'm wrong, but if the worst scenario does happen and the DCEU is shelved, the only thing we can do is treat MOS, BvS and JL as a trilogy of sorts. Some fans on Twitter are calling it the Superman trilogy, while others are describing it as the "Dawn of Justice" trilogy. The latter part makes more sense to me.

I don't understand this. If you're a Batman fan, why is there no point? I dislike the DCEU. I'm annoyed that it took so long to get to JL. I like pretty much very little that I've seen of JL, but I'm still going to watch it... eventually. It's Batman. Matt Reeves I've heard is a good director. A recast is just that. It's happened for decades. Ben Affleck being recast has no more meaning than Keaton or Kilmer. Or Christian Bale, if they'd decided to do that. It's still Batman. Where's the dealbreaker in a recast? Batman isn't a single actor. He's a character that can be explored by many different directors, with many different facets to his personality. I have reboot burnout too personally if that's your issue, but I don't know why that's cause for abandoning all the potential future films. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

Quote from: Travesty on Mon, 20 Nov  2017, 15:24
Nah, I'll never be done. The characters are bigger than any actor, director or box office numbers. I was there for the crumbling of live action Batman with B&R, and I'll be here for whatever else comes out. You have highs and lows, and I'm no fairweather fan. I'll take it all, even if it's not my cup of tea, or even if it's not as successful as I wish it would be. All you can do is be excited for new movies, comics, shows and games, and just hope that whatever they release is quality. That's all.

I do get what you're saying Trav, and I even appreciate your stance. But I can only speak for myself here, and honestly, I just can't find the enthusiasm over the thought of rebooting and recasting again and again and again. It's too draining.

Quote from: The Joker on Mon, 20 Nov  2017, 14:53

I can't see WB scraping the DCEU in light of the weak box office returns.

The problem is WB keep making dumb decisions, specifically their meddling of nearly all the films post MOS. I still enjoyed JL but I cant deny being a little disappointed over the footage shown in trailers that didn't make the final cut. Not to mention the enormous budget they're working with. To me they're capable of anything.

Quote from: riddler on Mon, 20 Nov  2017, 15:47
Fan reaction should be taken with a grain of salt.

WB don't think the same way, especially when it comes to critics. They go into panic mode. And the money they spend on reshoots is all for nought anyway. They end up with more money they have to make up at the box office and a majority of critics who still hate the movie.

Do you know how good it would be to walk into a movie, knowing the original script was simply filmed and we were watching that? Instead we usually get a hodgepodge Frankenstein monster (especially in the case of SS and JL). The best chance of a Snyder director's cut would be reinstating only some of the scenes because others will clash with the reshoots. Same thing with SS. I'd take that (if WB even do that), but doesn't mean I like it.

The only part of the soundtrack that excited me what when the League put Superman's body into the birthing chamber. We hear a minor snippet of Zimmer's score. Elfman sank in my estimations with his idiotic attitude regarding the B89 and Williams themes. The supposed Junkie XL theme that appeared recently is much better than anything Elfman slapped out. Elfman, you've had your day. You're yesterday's man and Junkie XL/Zimmer are better than you now. If you want to dismiss their music, I will dismiss YOURS. It was average at best. Go away.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry. I will turn on this franchise like a snake if they turn on me. Dumb decisions like this show the studio for what they really are. WB wanted a lighter tone. Okay, I accepted that and was on board with that. But going overboard is where I draw the line. Most of these reshoots stuck out like a sore thumb and didn't add anything. "Can you at least tell me the way to Atlantis?" Obvious reshoot and only added because it's a joke. "Something is definitely bleeding." Batman was meant to be lighter, but this is too far. One of the few Batman lines I disliked.

WB keep shooting themselves in the foot when they don't have to.

My enthusiasm can't help but be impacted when this happens.

Overall, I enjoyed it. It was pretty much what I expected.

Like many of you, I loved Man of Steel and was disappointed that it never received a proper sequel. I also think it was a mistake to not do a few more solo films of the other characters prior to the inevitable team-up. Still, I was looking forward to Justice League, a film which I've wanted ever since I was a kid.

Here are my observations:

-- J.K. Simmons' Commissioner Gordon: I know we didn't see much of him but it just didn't work for me. Physically, Affleck is pretty much the BTAS Bruce Wayne brought to life and that's kind of what I want in a Gordon. Bryan Cranston probably would've been a good choice.

-- Henry Cavill's Superman: I think Cavill is the best Superman since Reeve. As an actor, he's got good range and we see more of that in this film. Hopefully, we see more of him in an extended edition.

-- Ezra Miller's Flash: I rather enjoyed his portrayal. He brought just the right amount of humor into the film. If I had to nitpick, I would say that he's not really playing Barry Allen--he's actually Wally West. But then again, for me, only John Wesley Shipp is truly Barry Allen.

-- Affleck's Batman: Unlike the warehouse scene in BVS, or his few scenes in Suicide Squad, he didn't really have any show-stopping moments. The opening rooftop appearance came close. Was it supposed to be an homage to '89?

-- Ray Fisher's Cyborg: Admittedly, I'm not that familiar with Cyborg. Plus,  I've always considered him a member of the Titans, not the Justice League. Still, I found the character interesting and think Fisher was a really good choice.

-- Jason Momoa's Aquaman: It's clear Momoa is very enthusiastic for the character. I just wish he had his solo film come out before Justice League. As it stands, it's hard to judge his character since I don't feel like I really know him.

-- Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman: As always, she's awesome in everything.

-- Ciarán Hinds' Steppenwolf: I think it was a mistake to go with Steppenwolf as the bad guy. He just wasn't that memorable. If you're going to go with an intergalactic baddie, I would've preferred  Darkseid, Braniac, or even the Cyborg Superman (played by Cavill, of course).  But what would've been really great is if they went with someone totally out of left-field: The Key, Prometheus, etc.  If done right, one of those villains could have really gotten people talking.

-- SFX:  I think they went overboard on the CGI at the end of the film. I know all films use it but is it too much to hope for some actual physical sets instead of wall-to-wall green screens?

It's one of the reasons I love the Batmobile scene in Suicide Squad. At least part of that was filmed on an actual street in front of actual buildings.

Story: Overall, I enjoyed the movie, particularly the scenes involving Superman's resurrection (the debate, the fight, etc.) I would've enjoyed it more if it was an adaptation of the Reign of Superman storyline but I knew that was never going to happen. I'm hoping there will be an extended edition of some sort that fleshes out the story a bit more.

Quote from: phantom stranger on Tue, 21 Nov  2017, 02:44
Overall, I enjoyed it. It was pretty much what I expected.

Glad to hear you enjoyed it.

Quote from: phantom stranger on Tue, 21 Nov  2017, 02:44
Like many of you, I loved Man of Steel and was disappointed that it never received a proper sequel. I also think it was a mistake to not do a few more solo films of the other characters prior to the inevitable team-up. Still, I was looking forward to Justice League, a film which I've wanted ever since I was a kid.

In an ideal world, I would've preferred the same thing. But let's face it, the critics and a lot of the audiences are so hyperbolic and fickle, I would expect them to accuse WB of copying the Marvel approach and lacking any original thought. I've seen some BvS detractors slam the film for being too dark, but then say it's a much better film than JL. You can't win these delinquents.

Quote from: phantom stranger on Tue, 21 Nov  2017, 02:44
-- J.K. Simmons' Commissioner Gordon: I know we didn't see much of him but it just didn't work for me. Physically, Affleck is pretty much the BTAS Bruce Wayne brought to life and that's kind of what I want in a Gordon. Bryan Cranston probably would've been a good choice.

I thought Simmons was fine. Now of course, he didn't have a lot to do, but he played the part of an old-fashioned Gordon from the comics for me.

Quote from: phantom stranger on Tue, 21 Nov  2017, 02:44
-- SFX:  I think they went overboard on the CGI at the end of the film. I know all films use it but is it too much to hope for some actual physical sets instead of wall-to-wall green screens?

Considering the large scale of the action sequence, I don't think the quantity of CGI was overdone at all. Besides, there's no way this sort of movie or the Avengers could've been made twenty odd years ago if they had to rely on physical sets.

Looking at the scene where the team tries to calm Superman down once he returns from the dead, I did appreciate the part where Batman brings in Lois to make Clark come back to his senses. For me, it's a callback to Flash's warning about Lois being the key at the end of the Knightmare sequence in BvS.

This JL situation has me dejected. The passion for the current business model just isn't there right now.

Apparently Snyder had three hours worth of content.

https://screenrant.com/zack-snyder-justice-league-directors-cut-runtime/

The only crime people like Snyder and myself commit is having TOO MUCH passion. We care about these characters and the world, and we throw ourselves into it 100%. So for this worm to turn so abruptly the other way it really gets me down in the dumps. All that anticipation and excitement becomes a wound.

Characters would've been greatly expanded. Apparently Batman would've been suicidal near the end (drawing the Parademons to himself and rolling the Batmobile), with other heroes convincing him everything is okay now, and he's been redeemed. Stuff like this gives films MEANING and POWER. Instead, characters flit from scene to scene with bare minimum devoted to character growth. So disappointing. As a BvS fan, I think this could be the biggest missed chance in the franchise's history. And it's all just going to sit idle as the 2 hour version is called definitive.

It's a joke and an insult that WB kept the 'directed by Zack Snyder' credit when they ripped a ton of his scenes from the film and reshot a lot of content. This isn't anywhere near the complete, unfiltered vision of the great man.

Talent like Zack is what separated the DCEU from Marvel. But now, there's not much difference. They may as well stick to cartoons because Whedon League is about as deep as that. People made such a big deal about Superman smiling, and when they finally got more of it, they received CGI Mouth Man/Agent Smith.

Where's the equivalent of the BvS warehouse scene? Nothing in JL matches that. Cutting out lots of Snyder content and re-filming certain scenes tipped the balance more in favor of Whedon's sensibilities. As Snyder's son said:

(https://i1.wp.com/batman-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Jett-Justice-League.jpg?w=750&quality=85&strip=info&ssl=1)

As a result, I've embraced BvS:DOJ, TDK Returns, etc stronger than ever.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 25 Nov  2017, 01:03As a result, I've embraced BvS:DOJ, TDK Returns, etc stronger than ever.

This. Once again we seem to be on more or less the same page, old friend.

Look, I enjoyed the movie. It was a rollicking good time. But MOS had some meat on the bone. "Am I ready for the world? *gulp* Is the world ready for me?" Superman is who he's always been. But he experiences a fairly understandable conflict; one which in no way betrays what the character has traditionally been.

BVS had meat on the bone. Probably even more than MOS. Batman was consumed with his own failures and demons. He created an enemy where there wasn't one. And yeah, he ultimately saw the error of his ways. But instead of uniting like they should've, they were nearly destroyed by their true enemy. And Earth was left vulnerable to future threats.

Yeah, JL pays that off. Batman's mission in JL is one of penance. Superman should be the one organizing the League. But obviously he can't. And that's because of Batman. So Batman has taken it upon himself to do the job that needs doing as best he can. But he ultimately discovers he's not Superman. So rather than trying to force himself into being something he's not, Batman decides to make amends by bringing Superman back.

It brings the character fully out of the darkness that had consumed him by the beginning of BVS. Now he's truly poised to become his greatest self.

But we get only hints of that. As others have said, character development that should've used up a few more minutes was compressed. Maybe an extended cut can correct that stuff and give the characters more space to breathe. But maybe not.

The characters come together as a group barely with justification and then stick together even though by all rights they shouldn't be able to. Superman could've unified them but his absence means something else has to be the team's glue. And there isn't anything.

Speaking of Superman, he's barely a character in the movie. He's a weapon for the good guys and a convenient mechanism for cleaning up the mess they made. But he doesn't really have many character moments.

This does reinforce my view that Superman works well as a supporting character. That requires very little effort of any writer. When it's time to wrap things up, send Superman in there to do it. But characterizing and humanizing him takes effort and that never happens in JL.

There are ton of humorous moments though. Clearly WB heard their complaints on that. But why should they have? Clearly it made no difference in terms of the way "the fans" have responded.

Elfman. The elements of the score that were audible over the barrage of sound effects and dialogue were mostly lackluster and uninspired.

Honestly, I don't hate this movie. But MOS had my full attention during the premiere and thereafter. BVS, Ibid. I'm nowhere near as invested in JL. Yeah, Superman smiled. Whoopty freaking doo.

I want Affleck to stay on as Batman. And I want his eventual Batman movie to matter. But the way that it is right now... I dunno. I'm feeling a little deflated here, y'all. We went from Serious Cinema to Silly Marvel seemingly overnight. I don't think this will be a change for the better.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 27 Nov  2017, 02:07

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat, 25 Nov  2017, 01:03As a result, I've embraced BvS:DOJ, TDK Returns, etc stronger than ever.

This. Once again we seem to be on more or less the same page, old friend.

I thought you'd agree.

Take for example the first scene with Batman that Whedon filmed. Batman swings across and the criminal ends up shooting the water tower. But then it instantly sprouts water like an old Wild West cartoon, or a Wild West roller coaster attraction at a theme park.  Batman is also openly referring to Alfred in front of the criminal. And at the end he lets the criminal go - and if that's not a criminal his behavior here is funked up. I liked Affleck in the scene but when you assess the content it doesn't really stack up. Even the three boxes that appear on the wall after the Parademon explodes doesn't really make much sense to me. It was mainly done to speed up the plot given they trimmed everything down to two hours.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 27 Nov  2017, 02:07
Speaking of Superman, he's barely a character in the movie. He's a weapon for the good guys and a convenient mechanism for cleaning up the mess they made. But he doesn't really have many character moments.

Yep. He's reduced to being a pair of fists. Look, I love a good fight as much as anyone. I liked seeing freeze breath and heat vision. But there's so much more of this character to explore. A juicy plot line of Superman being resurrected was given lip service....literally. Lois asks Clark what is was like to be dead, and he simply says "really weird". And that's it. C'mon. I'm a born again Superman fan and I wanted more than this.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 27 Nov  2017, 02:07
I want Affleck to stay on as Batman. And I want his eventual Batman movie to matter. But the way that it is right now... I dunno. I'm feeling a little deflated here, y'all. We went from Serious Cinema to Silly Marvel seemingly overnight. I don't think this will be a change for the better.

I know what you mean. I think WB will ignore the Snyder cut (even if it exists) because they overrode that once they committed to the reshoots. The best we can hope for is an extended version of what we already received, with maybe the Superman hologram sequence, Superman visiting Alfred, etc reinstated. But I won't hold my breath. But right now?

(https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-24-2015/8PPlzB.gif)

I can't help but think Snyder had a subliminal message with the homeless man's 'I tried' sign.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 27 Nov  2017, 08:03
Take for example the first scene with Batman that Whedon filmed. Batman swings across and the criminal ends up shooting the water tower. But then it instantly sprouts water like an old Wild West cartoon, or a Wild West roller coaster attraction at a theme park.  Batman is also openly referring to Alfred in front of the criminal. And at the end he lets the criminal go - and if that's not a criminal his behavior here is funked up. I liked Affleck in the scene but when you assess the content it doesn't really stack up. Even the three boxes that appear on the wall after the Parademon explodes doesn't really make much sense to me. It was mainly done to speed up the plot given they trimmed everything down to two hours.

As I said before, I enjoyed the film what it is despite my complaints i.e. scenes that didn't get featured in the final cut, and this particular scene was definitely odd. Batman and the thief are suddenly out of character as soon as they see the Parademon. Seriously, if anybody had arrived late in the theater to watch this movie, and only saw this part where the Parademon combusts, I would've forgiven them for assuming the thief was an innocent bystander.

I suppose the rationale behind this was to emphasise how Batman remembers there is a much greater threat to the world than petty crime, but I think that's a lazy argument. There's no excuse why he'd let the man go free, right after he tried to shoot Batman. It was a bizarre WTF moment and kinda reminded me in BB when Batman blew up a hole in the prison wall to escape from Arkham - in front of two convicts, which would've allowed them to escape too.

By the way, since Joss Whedon directed that opening scene in JL, he had tried to make it more comedic, according to the actor who played the thief:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DPVFPWCVwAAJdmj.jpg:large)

When Zack Snyder departed from the film, I was under the impression that Joss Whedon would take over to finish what Snyder started but still retain the spirit of what he had in mind. Looking back, I've must've been naive or misunderstood something, because looking at how there are too many 'Whedonisms' in this movie, I can't help but suspect there's more to what WB are letting on. If this JL is another Superman II situation, and much different to what Snyder had envisioned, I'd rather WB have the integrity to give the director's credit to Joss Whedon.

As for Superman? Look, I get the complaints that the transition from doubt to confidence is perhaps all sudden, but I for one am happy that he's able to move on past the guilt and become the best he can be. Personally, I see his confidence as a sign of gratitude that he was brought back to life, that nothing he had cared about was ever neglected, and really it shows his transition as a pay off to Batman's newborn leap of faith after his initial misguided hatred and prejudice in BvS. I'm definitely curious to see what Snyder had in mind, but I didn't mind too much with what we got. ***

Nonetheless, what I DO mind, however, are all of the douchebags who complained about Superman being a 'mopey asshole' in the last two films (as one idiot described him on Twitter), but suddenly complain he's too cheesy and light-hearted here. Make up your minds you pathetic degenerates.

***Although, I'm more disappointed that there's no follow-up to how Smallville reacts to Clark's return from the dead, as his reporter persona at the Daily Planet, as the ending implies. Come on! You can keep those plotlines unresolved, FFS!

The Batman opening scene isn't a bad scene, but it falls apart at the end. There a couple of issues I have with this scene. The first is the most obvious, Batman leaves the criminal to go free. I really wish the scene ended with him knocking the guy out or cut to him on another rooftop, talking to Alfred with a brief, wide shot of the crook being arrested from Batman's POV. But, considering that probably wasn't filmed, I kinda wish it cut away before he left the roof, leaving us with the assumption that he ultimately dealt with the crook.

My second problem with it is it's in the wrong place narratively as it's sandwiched between two Superman-centric scenes. Each scene feels like the movie is starting all over again. This also includes the main title sequence, from which the transition from the Batman scene wasn't quite smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the placement of these scenes were shuffled around up quite a bit until the last moment. I think a transition from the flashback into the main title sequence (or without that Superman scene altogether) with the Batman scene coming sometime after would have worked best, perhaps in part because there cutting from the Man of Steel himself directly into his funeral could allow for some poignancy. This is the kind of thing that wouldn't phase a casual movie fan, but it drives me nuts.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Mon, 27 Nov  2017, 09:16Nonetheless, what I DO mind, however, are all of the douchebags who complained about Superman being a 'mopey asshole' in the last two films (as one idiot described him on Twitter), but suddenly complain he's too cheesy and light-hearted here. Make up your minds you pathetic degenerates.

The all or nothing mindset here is staggeringly out of touch. A character can be light, fun and not cheesy or too light hearted. And more insulting real people over fiction. But if people dare criticize a movie, hoo boy they're any number of insults. How are they any different in wrong doing than you? Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

Quote from: GoNerdYourself on Mon, 27 Nov  2017, 16:16
The Batman opening scene isn't a bad scene, but it falls apart at the end. There a couple of issues I have with this scene. The first is the most obvious, Batman leaves the criminal to go free. I really wish the scene ended with him knocking the guy out or cut to him on another rooftop, talking to Alfred with a brief, wide shot of the crook being arrested from Batman's POV. But, considering that probably wasn't filmed, I kinda wish it cut away before he left the roof, leaving us with the assumption that he ultimately dealt with the crook.

My second problem with it is it's in the wrong place narratively as it's sandwiched between two Superman-centric scenes. Each scene feels like the movie is starting all over again. This also includes the main title sequence, from which the transition from the Batman scene wasn't quite smooth. I wouldn't be surprised if the placement of these scenes were shuffled around up quite a bit until the last moment. I think a transition from the flashback into the main title sequence (or without that Superman scene altogether) with the Batman scene coming sometime after would have worked best, perhaps in part because there cutting from the Man of Steel himself directly into his funeral could allow for some poignancy. This is the kind of thing that wouldn't phase a casual movie fan, but it drives me nuts.

I don't really mind that the film opened with Batman in the beginning. I kinda dig the idea that it opens as if it's your typical Batman movie, but the twist occurs when the Parademon appears out of nowhere. It feels like a prelude more than anything. I guess one might rationalise that Batman's treatment of the thief throughout that scene shows he has become a lot more merciful compared to his conduct in BvS. Although perhaps too merciful. :-[

Then again, the thief's mentioning of Superman does draw a slightly somber reaction from Batman, before setting the mood for the depressing montage in the opening credits.

For me, it was about the editing, which was awkward. The scenes don't flow well together and it just starts, restarts, and then starts all over again. Also, that moment didn't really work for me. It kinda felt forced. I just really felt that scene floundered at the end. Plus, it makes more sense to cut from the man himself being asked about the world right to the title sequence, which shows the impact his death on the world. There's something potentially haunting about transitioning from him being alive to his own funeral.

I kinda pick on the opening of the film a lot because this was when my suspicions about the reshoots were confirmed, that they weren't just going to be a tiny nuisance on the film, but a considerable burden. I always kinda thought they would be. Anyone who actually edits knows just how much of an impact "15 to 20%" can make. Considering that pre-existing scenes are re-worked to accommodate the new material, the result can be double that, probably even triple, and it shows, right from the beginning.

Back to the Batman scene. It was originally shot to be comedic, so I wonder if the scene was supposed to end with a humorous moment where Batman dealt with the criminal somehow, maybe using one of his gadgets from a distance? If so, the "gag" may have been cut to force the transition into the titles.

I'm still not a fan of the scene, but I'll try and argue the case FOR it. Perhaps the sequence was meant to show how the alien threat united humanity against a common foe. In that moment it wasn't one hero and one criminal, but simply two concerned humans. Again, I'm not overly fond of this idea, but that's all I have right now. In an ideal world the reshoots wouldn't have even happened. And Nerd, I get what you mean. The opening segments were very stop start. It didn't feel like a flowing film but instead like seperate scenes joined together.

I'm fed up with the doom and gloom, so I'd like to steer this thread towards the positives for a change.

I think Cyborg was definitely one of the best characters with this film. My favourite scene is when he talks to his father at home and how he feels completely alienated because of how inhuman he feels he has become. As Silas says to his son "you're not a monster",  Victor turns around and says "it's funny how you thought I meant me when I meant monster". It captures how Silas played god in trying to save Victor's life, but calls to question at what cost?

Diana's influence in helping Cyborg to come out of hiding, and drawing her own experience to persuade him to do so, can't be ignored too. It shows a wealth of leadership on her part. Even as Cyborg comes around to wanting to keep leaving as he tries to separate the three Mother Boxes, and suddenly builds a camaraderie with Superman in doing so. Those moments gave Cyborg that his life can still be fulfilling.

I'll agree with that. I don't think I'll ever be completely comfortable with Cyborg as a member of the Justice League. I guess I'm old enough for him to still be "the new guy" even though it's been over ten years now since Smallville began transitioning him from the Titans to the JLA.

Still, Fisher was an unexpected delight. I loved his voice, especially. It had this almost emotionless quality about it. Pretty solid little performance there.

The Cyborg effects were pretty well done too. I knew reflexively that this had to be motion capture. But his body lacked a lot of the clunkiness I associate with mixing live action with CGI. Some pretty solid attention to detail going on there.

One thing I adored about BVS was how much @$$ Batman kicked. We didn't see too much of that in JL. I mean old fashioned John Wayne put up your dukes stuff where Batman shows a crook the error of his ways with both fists. There wasn't as much of that in JL.

But still, one cool thing was Superman dismantling the Justice League singlehandedly. It plays in to the idea that the League needs him a lot more than he needs them. The Flash's shock at Superman's speed and reflexes was definitely one of the high points of the movie for me. Of which there weren't many.

Sorry, bro. But the sting of this movie is still a little fresh for me.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Dec  2017, 04:05
Still, Fisher was an unexpected delight. I loved his voice, especially. It had this almost emotionless quality about it. Pretty solid little performance there.

I liked him too. I thought he could've been a weak link before seeing the film, but I didn't find that to be the case.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Dec  2017, 04:05
One thing I adored about BVS was how much @$$ Batman kicked. We didn't see too much of that in JL. I mean old fashioned John Wayne put up your dukes stuff where Batman shows a crook the error of his ways with both fists. There wasn't as much of that in JL.

It's true that he doesn't get an action sequence that compares to the BvS warehouse scene.  But I think they struck a fair balance between Batman the ass kicker and Batman the human team member. I like that they didn't back away from the use of guns. He shoots Parademons from the Knightcrawler and the Batmboile. I dig that, especially considering I've been playing Doom lately. I don't care what alien threat exists. If you have BFGs (big funky guns) and you keep the lead pumping, you're gonna make inroads. Without Batman the League wouldn't be what it is. He has the vehicles, the tech and the strategies.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Dec  2017, 04:05
But still, one cool thing was Superman dismantling the Justice League singlehandedly. It plays in to the idea that the League needs him a lot more than he needs them. The Flash's shock at Superman's speed and reflexes was definitely one of the high points of the movie for me. Of which there weren't many.

"Is this guy still bothering you?" sums up Superman's power level here. I wanted something more complex in terms of Superman's resurrection (world reaction, his feelings explored in greater detail etc), but it's nonetheless satisfying to see him overpower Steppenwolf with absolute ease. Superman is a wish fulfilment character and they most definitely depicted that in terms of his abilities.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Dec  2017, 04:05
Sorry, bro. But the sting of this movie is still a little fresh for me.

Indeed. If the deleted scenes didn't exist the criticism wouldn't be *as* strong. Zack Snyder's son summarised the situation perfectly for me. It's not a bad film but it's hard to move beyond the what ifs.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Dec  2017, 04:05
One thing I adored about BVS was how much @$$ Batman kicked. We didn't see too much of that in JL. I mean old fashioned John Wayne put up your dukes stuff where Batman shows a crook the error of his ways with both fists. There wasn't as much of that in JL.

I thought Batman held his own as best as he could against the Parademons. I thought his struggles fighting them played into the idea how vulnerable and human he is, which justifies his recruitment of the metahumans to fight them. That alone lives up to the movie's tagline "You can't save the world alone".

Yes, it would've been nice to see a fight scene on the same level, as say, the Warehouse scene in BvS. But I find Batman's arc, as it was in BvS, to be far more interesting and one of the many strengths of this film. The end of BvS has Batman turning a corner, and is sorry that his mistreatment and mistrust over Superman had indirectly caused his death, even though ironically, his creation of the Kryptonite spear had helped saved the planet from Doomsday. His newfound respect for Clark and faith in his goodness is the perfect contrast to the paranoid hatred for him from BvS. Even when Alfred and the team protests his plans to bring him back from the dead using the Mother Box, because of the fear of the potential negative consequences, Bruce is undeterred and even went far by saying Clark was more human than he was. Witnessing somebody giving their own lives to protect the greater despite whatever adversity they faced would draw admiration, and Bruce realised the world needed to regain something precious it had lost.

Bruce knew if he could free himself from the guilt and bring Clark back somehow, he'd take the chance. As I said before, Batman using Lois as leverage to calm Superman down once he returns shows the length he goes to make amends for all the indirect damage he caused in BvS. You might lament that the Knightmare scene from that movie doesn't get explored, and it's an understandable criticism. But it is still argued that Batman took Future Flash's advice about Lois being the key, and used it to help Superman to recuperate from his revival.

The ending of the film comes to full circle for Batman. As we saw him anonymously donating for Clark's funeral at the end of the Ultimate Edition of BvS, Bruce, this time, spends his wealth to restore the Kent family home from and finally fixes his mistake, as he tells to a grateful Clark. Now yes, the ending does have problems because it doesn't explore how Clark marks his return when he was announced dead in Smallville and the Daily Planet. But strictly speaking for Batman's arc, there was definitely a sense of closure, and his positive frame of mind continues as he plans to restore Wayne Manor to its former glory.

Yet, despite all this simple yet brilliant arc in redemption, I see people declare Batman as 'useless' in JL. What utterly pitiful fools.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Dec  2017, 04:05
Sorry, bro. But the sting of this movie is still a little fresh for me.

I understand the disappointment to an extent. I do have gripes of my own, but where mine mostly concerns about the amount of footage that didn't make it to the final cut, yours has to do with the tone veering too far away from MOS and BvS than you might've expected. Correct if I'm wrong. But that's totally understandable and there's nothing wrong with that.

But the critics and naysayers can go to hell. They complained incessantly about the first Snyder films, but now I see some of them suggesting they would've liked to see what the film would've been if Snyder had finished it without any involvement from Whedon. They're complete and utter turncoats. They got a lighter, "fun" movie, but they still chose to sh*t on it.

To me, Jett is basically the official spokesman of the anti-DCEU contingent. Not sure if he took that mantle up willingly or if it was thrust upon him. Based upon his writings (such as they are), it looks like something he actively campaigned for but who could say?

In any event, I regard him as the guy in the room speaking for everyone with a chip on their shoulder about something something Snyder, muh reboot or generally But it's not Nolan though, ARRRRRGH!. I think it would be fair to say that JL's intended core audience was this "disaffected" type. WB wanted this crowd back in the game and on board with whatever's coming next.

And if Jett is their frontman then it would be safe to say that JL is at best an average movie for them. They're not saying it's because of Snyder but, y'know, it's because of Snyder.

In some ways I can understand why WB did what they did. They don't want their movies' core audience slurping Mountain Dew in their basements as they smack-talk WB's efforts on Twitter. But in the end, what did it get them? I'll let Jett's mealy-mouthed columns speak for themselves.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/dc-comics-on-film_JUSTICE-LEAGUE_review_byJett_11-15-17.html

http://www.batman-on-film.com/THE-BATMAN_opinion_time-for-batfleck-to-go_byJett_11-24-17.html

These are not the words of someone who believes the DCEU (JL notwithstanding) can be rehabilitated. Even if such a thing is possible for this specimen, it's still undesirable. There's no parallel universe out there where Jett and his ilk will ever be on board with Snyder in any capacity. In fact, I remain skeptical that they even want Batman as a member of a larger DC universe.

Affleck may very well quit. And if he does, he's taking the entire DCEU with him.

If it comes to that, WB can't leave Batman on the shelf. They've developed a taste for billion-grossing Batman movies and they're not letting that go easily.

One suggestion I had post-TDKRises was an anthology franchise along the lines of that Legends Of The Dark Knight comic from the 90's. Bring in Robert Rodriguez for one movie, Quentin Tarantino for one movie, Guillermo del Toro for one movie, etc. Let them compile their own casts, tell their own stories and then go their own ways, passing the baton to somebody else after one movie. Some can be absurdly high-budget affairs while others can be borderline indie movies with paltry budgets. WB need not risk losing their collective shirt on these ventures, right?

This approach creates a tremendous opportunity for a diversity of material. It's a new and original way of developing a "franchise" and it explores the possibilities Batman offers more completely than would otherwise be possible.

Frankly, I'm fed up with trilogies. I think a lot of moviegoers are. So maybe what WB could do is change the paradigm a little bit by telling disconnected, unrelated stories where filmmakers are afforded some pretty decent latitude to do whatever they want and then they can move on.

I know I'm verging on tl;dr here but imagine the possibilities. You can tell Arkham video game type stories, smaller and more intimate stories, big and sprawling stories. You can go dark, gritty and realistic along the lines of Nolan. Or you can go way over-the-top fun and make a live action Dick Sprang film. You can make a period piece Batman film set in the 30's or you can make something set in the modern era.

Of all characters, the sky is the limit with Batman. You can do anything. Go anywhere. So WB should do that!

Speaking of, that's always been my dream: a Batman movie set in the 30s. Aesthetically, I want it to look similar to Sky Captain, and I would have Batman in his grey and blue with the yellow oval. All of the villains would be fantastical, but there would still be street level mobsters. I can picture it in my head.

Is there a thread for this? Our dream live action Batman movies?

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Dec  2017, 17:27
There's no parallel universe out there where Jett and his ilk will ever be on board with Snyder in any capacity. In fact, I remain skeptical that they even want Batman as a member of a larger DC universe.

The Texan (who had a falling out with two loyal staff members) is not a fan of shared universe Batman. My preference these days is shared universe Batman. That means he can still operate in Gotham separately from these other heroes, but they also exist. Batman can mingle with them if the story demands it. The League members make the WORLD richer and more expansive. I think that should be embraced.

I also like how it makes Batman more scientific and strategic because he has tougher obstacles to overcome.

Look, at the end of the day the public enjoyed the movie.
The RT critic score is 41% - and the audience score is DOUBLED at 81%.

My three stage roadmap for the DCEU is pretty simple:

1. Release an extended JL cut next year.
2. Focus on getting Aquaman right.
3. Nail down scripts and then film them without alterations.

Let's hope Affleck remains because he's damned good in the role. I suspect he may vacate after Flashpoint. JL kinda alludes to that as well. Bruce tells Diana he's too old for the superhero business. If that's the case, he'll pip Bale's record. Three films with a cameo in SS. That's a decent run for a live action Batman considering Kilmer and Clooney only did one each.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun,  3 Dec  2017, 00:37

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat,  2 Dec  2017, 17:27
There's no parallel universe out there where Jett and his ilk will ever be on board with Snyder in any capacity. In fact, I remain skeptical that they even want Batman as a member of a larger DC universe.

The Texan (who had a falling out with two loyal staff members) is not a fan of shared universe Batman. My preference these days is shared universe Batman. That means he can still operate in Gotham separately from these other heroes, but they also exist. Batman can mingle with them if the story demands it. The League members make the WORLD richer and more expansive. I think that should be embraced.

I shudder to think that Jett has an influence on the fandom. Because if people really look up to him as some sort of authority...no wonder why the fandom is f***ed up.

You know, I was taking a look at people's Twitter feeds during the lead-up to JL, and Jett and his buddies such as Rick Shew would run some gossip and rumours about the film behind the scenes, and had the audacity to bully fans who dared to question them. Of course, they've often tried to defend themselves by projecting the fans are trolling them, but you have to wonder why would ostensibly grown-up men care so much if they're being set up to fail. I'm not at all impressed with their behaviour, but it's not surprising as I remember their gossip surrounding Snyder when he announced his leave from the production given his personal circumstances.

I never understood the complaints about Batman needing to work alone without other superheroes. If anything, it humanises him a bit, and it always allows him to think for solutions and plans to succeed. His plan to revive Superman back from the dead in JL is one example of this. And while his onslaught against the Parademons in Russia didn't quite work out as he would've hoped, the effort was there.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun,  3 Dec  2017, 00:37
Look, at the end of the day the public enjoyed the movie.
The RT critic score is 41% - and the audience score is DOUBLED at 81%.

You can never understand the power that these bloody critics have on the public perception. I was watching a YouTube reviewer the other day who admitted he was nearly overwhelmed by the negative reception when watching JL for a second time, because he noticed the criticism over the CGI and the way some scenes were executed in the first ten minutes. But he kept watching the rest of the movie and remembered why he liked it so much: the characters and their chemistry together.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun,  3 Dec  2017, 00:37
1. Release an extended JL cut next year.

I wouldn't be surprised if this eventually happens. The demand for it is just too strong.

I saw this on SHH, with the caption below saying:

"Throwback to when Whedon did reshoots for The Dark Knight. Good times."

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQNbma9UQAEAPiG.jpg:large)

Quote from: Travesty on Wed,  6 Dec  2017, 17:19
I saw this on SHH, with the caption below saying:

"Throwback to when Whedon did reshoots for The Dark Knight. Good times."

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQNbma9UQAEAPiG.jpg:large)

Yeah, but then again the fight scenes in that movie look even worse than action scenes in a low budget TV movie, so... :P

Quote from: Travesty on Wed,  6 Dec  2017, 17:19
I saw this on SHH, with the caption below saying:

"Throwback to when Whedon did reshoots for The Dark Knight. Good times."

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQNbma9UQAEAPiG.jpg:large)

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/6d3993983a073ab63d69ee3d0ca8703c/tenor.gif?itemid=3555158)

Spot on. I've been critical of Nolan but Whedon is far worse.

If Whedon did reshoots on a Nolan Bat-film, maybe the fight scenes would look coherent and Batman wouldn't sound like a chain smoker. I wouldn't call myself a Whedon fan but he wasn't the one who decided to cut JL down to 2 hours, he was just the one who had to actually do it and slap his name on it.

Quote from: riddler on Sat,  9 Dec  2017, 16:29
If Whedon did reshoots on a Nolan Bat-film, maybe the fight scenes would look coherent and Batman wouldn't sound like a chain smoker. I wouldn't call myself a Whedon fan but he wasn't the one who decided to cut JL down to 2 hours, he was just the one who had to actually do it and slap his name on it.

That's very true. But I do think there are some moments that deserved some criticism, e.g. the shot of Aquaman diving into the water after speaking to Bruce Wayne for the first time did look poorly shot, or Batman leaving the criminal behind after being confronted by a Parademon. But there are moments where I didn't mind his input, such as choosing the cover of Leonard Cohen's Everybody Knows in the opening credits, or some banter and lines by the heroes.

Quote from: riddler on Sat,  9 Dec  2017, 16:29
I wouldn't call myself a Whedon fan but he wasn't the one who decided to cut JL down to 2 hours, he was just the one who had to actually do it and slap his name on it.

Yeah, I know, but it was just a joke on the contrast in styles between Snyder and Whedon with the reshoots.

I thought it was funny.

Did anybody else noted that one bit of dialogue where Gordon says to Batman "It's good to see you working well with others again" was slightly edited in the final cut? The word again was removed altogether. I thought that was unnecessary because, as fans had pointed out online, it was presumed that Batman working with the other metahumans represented the first time he was dealing with acquaintances since Robin's death. Maybe it doesn't change that theory, but come on, was it really necessary? We know the JL used teamwork to rescue Silas Stone and the other hostages, and Batman's willingness to work with others the contributed to that success. But did the producers think that having Gordon saying "again" at the end confuse the audience and didn't give them enough credit to make that connection?

Then again, a fair amount of stuff in BvS did go over a lot of people's heads, so I guess it's possible.

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 12 Dec  2017, 12:35Then again, a fair amount of stuff in BvS did go over a lot of people's heads, so I guess it's possible.

This. I put it down to the stupidity of the common man. Harsh? I call 'em like I see 'em.

When I worked from home and had virtually zero contact with the outside world, I had begun suspecting that I was a little stupid. But when I began working outside home again and interacting with people all day every day, I quickly discovered that any average person you see on the street barely has two IQ points to rub together.

I'm not trying to be mean. Or even self-aggrandizing, really. Because I know authentic geniuses and am well aware of the fact that I can't hold a candle to them. My point is that the median is pretty f***ing low... which you wouldn't immediately guess if you spend time on message boards and whatnot, which requires a certain high agency, low time preference and mental capacity to do.

Might wide audiences have been confuzzled by Gordon saying "again" in the context of a rebooted Batman? I'm not prepared to say no.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 12 Dec  2017, 21:12

Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 12 Dec  2017, 12:35Then again, a fair amount of stuff in BvS did go over a lot of people's heads, so I guess it's possible.

This. I put it down to the stupidity of the common man. Harsh? I call 'em like I see 'em.

Don't try and extend an olive branch. Bulldoze the opposition.

I'm an INTJ. INTJs form just two percent of the population. That says it all.

Anyway, I've lost the Batman passion for the time being.

I read a possible analysis of the Snyder cut and even if it's not confirmed I love it.

Wonder Woman failed to stop the bomb, Aquaman was an alcoholic, Cyborg was a Frankenstein, Batman was feeling guilty/suicidal and Superman was tempted/unsure of himself. So much better.

Why do we need the Justice League if Wonder Woman can save the day all by herself? Ideally, the terrorists would've planted bombs all over the building, and Wonder Woman wouldn't have been able to disarm them all in time. These heroes needed to fail so they could be redeemed at the end. The unity of the League would have inspired them all to be better people, and indeed, would've justified the reason for them forming a team in the first place. 'You can't save the world alone'. Character growth was skipped over by Whedon. I cannot call this a cohesive Snyder trilogy because it's not.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 13 Dec  2017, 01:00
I read a possible analysis of the Snyder cut and even if it's not confirmed I love it.

Wonder Woman failed to stop the bomb, Aquaman was an alcoholic, Cyborg was a Frankenstein, Batman was feeling guilty/suicidal and Superman was tempted/unsure of himself. So much better.

Why do we need the Justice League if Wonder Woman can save the day all by herself? Ideally, the terrorists would've planted bombs all over the building, and Wonder Woman wouldn't have been able to disarm them all in time. These heroes needed to fail so they could be redeemed at the end. The unity of the League would have inspired them all to be better people, and indeed, would've justified the reason for them forming a team in the first place. 'You can't save the world alone'. Character growth was skipped over by Whedon. I cannot call this a cohesive Snyder trilogy because it's not.

Where did you read this? Not to say I don't believe you, but I treat every claim about what the movie could've been if Snyder had full control as hearsay, to be honest. People have been gossiping about the entire DCEU under the sun since BvS, and I'm not eager to start taking anybody's word right now.

But for the sake of an argument, I'm actually quite happy with how the movie dealt with Batman, the end of the opening scene notwithstanding. I don't necessarily think having suicidal tendencies is essential for his character arc. Sure, that level of guilt might have been compelling, but I quite like his desire and confidence in reviving Superman as a means to correct his treatment of him in BvS.

I'll agree that Aquaman was giving the shortest stick out of the whole bunch, and it does feel a lot of his backstory was cut out. And yeah, a lack of exploring how the world regained hope once Superman returns is sticks out like a sore thumb to me. The failure to explore that does leave the mood expressed in the opening credits feeling unresolved.

But other than those couple of instances, I don't quite agree with you that character growth was completely skipped. Not with Wonder Woman becoming a leader in her own right to persuade Cyborg to come out of hiding and join the fight, and Batman's completing his path towards redemption.

You can buy this digitally on Amazon Prime for $10. Digital only, not bluray.