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Monarch Theatre => Batman in the DCEU => Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016) => Topic started by: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 7 Nov 2017, 11:39

Title: Men are still good
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 7 Nov 2017, 11:39
Despite all the fuss over how dark BvS is, I thought the ending of the film was optimistic, and it's a shame that a lot of people have overlooked it.

What I liked most about the ending is that it promotes the message that people are still redeemable and overcome whatever faults they have. Superman died, but his sacrifice undeniably had a positive impact. Batman and Wonder Woman started to look for the other metahumans to establish the Justice League. Batman himself expressing regret for distrusting Superman and vowed to honour his legacy (including anonymously paying for Clark's funeral in Smallville), as well as bringing Wonder Woman back to the spotlight after staying low key for so long.

Perry White, after treating Clark a little harshly during his career at the Daily Planet, pays his respects at Clark's funeral. Despite being a little disrespectful to Clark sometimes, I believe Perry had respect for Clark deep down.

And of course there is the people of Metropolis, after being divided over Superman's impact, were fully united in their mourning for Superman in front of a makeshift memorial, where the statue that Doomsday had destroyed during the battle.

Which brings me to realise that Bruce's speech is relevant to the world we live in more than ever. People will have conflicts and destroy each other, but it's there's still hope to improve and overcome our flaws to help one another, to be kind one another and work together to make this world a better place. Bruce understands this more than ever. He rejects hopelessness, cynicism and misguided vengeance, and rejoices hope to defend a world worth fighting for now that Superman is gone.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: Dagenspear on Tue, 7 Nov 2017, 14:38
I can't agree. I think the movie preaches an optimistic message. But it doesn't walk the walk. The conclusion showcases someone who attempted to murder a percieved hero get away scot free and then has that person make a false claim about the nature of man that the movie itself doesn't back up. Superman had to die to be accepted socially. Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man. They unite under massive tragedy. But that's a different discussion on the realism of human emotions, which a movie could get away with. If this had taken the time build Superman as a hero for the people and wanted to have an interesting display of a knock down drag out fight between him and Doomsday in front of the people, so the people could see his struggle in fighting against letting people die, that would've earned that scene, that idea. But instead it opted for the MOS route again in the "Let's just fight!" only Zack decided to avoid causalities this time by moving it to an abandoned area, which is admirable, but much like in MOS, he could have used the collateral damage to develop the story and the character, for MOS it was for Superman and Zod, here it's Superman and the people of Metropolis. It could be so powerful to see the gut wrenching emotion of Superman, tired and beaten, fighting back against Doomsday to save lives. Instead the movie just had him stab Doomsday. And that's not to say that there aren't people would shift perspectives about Superman. But if I'm supposed to think that the whole city loves him now, that's just not flying for me. The movie's darkness isn't a problem. It's about the characters and the story. Wonder Woman showcases larger, more real darkness than BvS pretends to understand. We see innocent civilians dead, families and we see Diana react to it like a person. Is the movie perfect? No. Better than both MOS and BvS? Yes. And it manages a more triumphant conclusion in the face of that. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Dark Knight on Tue, 7 Nov 2017, 23:45
Quote from: Dagenspear on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 14:38
Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man.

(http://www.aveleyman.com/Gallery/ActorsE/27807-27939.gif)
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Tue, 7 Nov 2017, 23:57
Nice little rebuttal there, TDK.

An even better example would be real life cases like JFK and Nelson Mandela.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: thecolorsblend on Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 04:02
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 23:45
Quote from: Dagenspear on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 14:38
Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man.

(http://www.aveleyman.com/Gallery/ActorsE/27807-27939.gif)
That's different though because things that aren't exactly the same must be total opposites.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: Dagenspear on Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 04:51
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 23:45
Quote from: Dagenspear on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 14:38
Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man.

(http://www.aveleyman.com/Gallery/ActorsE/27807-27939.gif)
A whole society didn't unite under Harvey's death. The legal system used his death, but if anything it created another rift for society.
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 23:57
Nice little rebuttal there, TDK.

An even better example would be real life cases like JFK and Nelson Mandela.
Did a whole society unite and change under their deaths? Because as far as I can tell America is and was still a mess after JFK died. And I don't know the structures of Nelson Mandela. But as far as I know, people who hated them didn't love them because they passed on.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 04:02That's different though because things that aren't exactly the same must be total opposites.
Not total opposites, just not the same or with the same meaning.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Dark Knight on Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 07:42
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 04:02
That's different though because things that aren't exactly the same must be total opposites.
Gordon speaks about Harvey at the podium and says "it will be a very long time before someone inspires us the way he did." In TDK, Gordon says "people will lose hope" because this one man died. Batman says unlike Dent he's "not a hero".

Dent may as well have been Superman in the way they spoke about him.

TDK Rises shows that Gotham established 'Harvey Dent Day' to remember this single person. Nearly a decade later, society was united under his death via an annual holiday. Promotional material called Harvey "a hero to the people of Gotham City". This sentiment transcended the legal system.

It's all there, clear as crystal.

At the Harvey Dent memorial at Wayne Manor they have a photo of the guy, as if he's a God to be worshipped. When they chase Batman with the army of police cars it's all to arrest Dent's killer. The film makes a point about Harvey's legacy and continued admiration. That's why it's meant to be a big deal when Bane later blows the whistle on Dent's legacy outside Blackgate, even though Nolan drops this plot line straight after.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: Dagenspear on Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 09:58
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 07:42Gordon speaks about Harvey at the podium and says “it will be a very long time before someone inspires us the way he did.” In TDK, Gordon says “people will lose hope” because this one man died. Batman says unlike Dent he’s “not a hero”.

Dent may as well have been Superman in the way they spoke about him.
All of which is a false belief and all based on Harvey before his death.

QuoteTDK Rises shows that Gotham established ‘Harvey Dent Day’ to remember this single person. Nearly a decade later, society was united under his death via an annual holiday. Promotional material called Harvey “a hero to the people of Gotham City”. This sentiment transcended the legal system.

It’s all there, clear as crystal.
Not at all. The mayor was the one promoting this. The hero and Harvey Dent Day was his public statements. Not one all the cops share or even all the people share as some are still longing for Batman. It was very much a legal structure.
QuoteAt the Harvey Dent memorial at Wayne Manor they have a photo of the guy, as if he’s a God to be worshipped. When they chase Batman with the army of police cars it’s all to arrest Dent’s killer. The film makes a point about Harvey’s legacy and continued admiration. That’s why it’s meant to be a big deal when Bane later blows the whistle on Dent's legacy outside Blackgate, even though Nolan drops this plot line straight after.
The point was the corruption, not Dent's fall. Only that cop was the one who wanted Batman, and was because he wanted to capture Batman so he could get the job as commissioner. Some cops were for him, other were mocking the rookie who shot at Batman and others were in awe of Batman's presence. The city was very much not pro Dent and anti Batman. It wasn't a united society. Of course though, my statement about how it's a different discussion and a movie could get away with it is being ignored. And we're stuck in the boring part of discussion.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 10:37
I would like to say this.

I am deeply troubled by the thought that anybody would feel more sympathy for Harvey Dent, who got corrupted by the Joker and became an evil scumbag who tried to murder a child, than Superman, who refused to let Lex Luthor corrupt him and gave his life to protect the world from Doomsday. If that's the popular consensus, that's incredibly sad.

I know which character earns the title "hero".
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: thecolorsblend on Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 21:07
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 04:02
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 23:45
Quote from: Dagenspear on Tue,  7 Nov  2017, 14:38
Of course this isn't how people would act either in acceptance, just because a single hero died. A whole society doesn't unite under the death of one man.

(http://www.aveleyman.com/Gallery/ActorsE/27807-27939.gif)
That's different though because things that aren't exactly the same must be total opposites.

Quote from: Dagenspear on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 04:51A whole society didn't unite under Harvey's death. The legal system used his death, but if anything it created another rift for society.
Quote from: Dagenspear on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 04:51Did a whole society unite and change under their deaths?
Called it!

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 07:42Gordon speaks about Harvey at the podium and says "it will be a very long time before someone inspires us the way he did." In TDK, Gordon says "people will lose hope" because this one man died. Batman says unlike Dent he's "not a hero".
But Harvey isn't Superman though. And things that aren't the exact, identical same obviously must be total opposites. Didn't you know?
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: Dagenspear on Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 22:00
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 21:07Called it!

But Harvey isn't Superman though. And things that aren't the exact, identical same obviously must be total opposites. Didn't you know?
I'm sorry, but it is literally not the same. The society wasn't divided against Harvey Dent. The city didn't unite under his death. It's pretty opposite. But things are said differently, because they're different. You have no argument here. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: thecolorsblend on Wed, 8 Nov 2017, 23:18
Quote from: Dagenspear on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 22:00I'm sorry, but it is literally not the same. The society wasn't divided against Harvey Dent. The city didn't unite under his death.
Not the exact same! Must be total opposites!
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: Dagenspear on Thu, 9 Nov 2017, 02:08
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 23:18Not the exact same! Must be total opposites!
But having a bare minimum of similarities makes it an appropriate comparison? That's a false equivalency.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: Travesty on Sun, 12 Nov 2017, 18:34
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 10:37
I would like to say this.

I am deeply troubled by the thought that anybody would feel more sympathy for Harvey Dent, who got corrupted by the Joker and became an evil scumbag who tried to murder a child, than Superman, who refused to let Lex Luthor corrupt him and gave his life to protect the world from Doomsday. If that's the popular consensus, that's incredibly sad.

I know which character earns the title "hero".
Yeah, it's actually one of my biggest gripes about TDK. Batman went out of his way to cover up the crimes and deaths of a villain. The fact that Batman rather be seen as a villain, because he's more concerned with covering up what the real villain actually did, just never seemed right to me.

As for BvS, I thought the ending was very optimistic, too.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Dark Knight on Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 00:33
Quote from: Travesty on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 18:34
Yeah, it's actually one of my biggest gripes about TDK. Batman went out of his way to cover up the crimes and deaths of a villain. The fact that Batman rather be seen as a villain, because he's more concerned with covering up what the real villain actually did, just never seemed right to me.

As for BvS, I thought the ending was very optimistic, too.
Exactly.

People forget this part about the DCEU Superman - there was probably always a sense of suspicion about him, much like General Swanwick's comments at the end of MOS. But after that film the promotional comics show Superman as a saviour of the people. He developed a good reputation. Newspaper cuttings on Wallace Keefe's wall depict some of these acts of heroism. I think one even had Superman lifting tectonic plates!

It's only after the Africa incident and the defacing of the statue does public sentiment turn. As Perry White ponders, "end of love affair with man in the sky?" And even then, opinion was split. This is physically shown during the Senate hearing. Outside we see protesters screaming their guts out AGAINST Superman, but we also see people FOR Superman. Superman is smiling and greeted with respect when he saves the child from the fire. What brings him down is the constant media chatter. That's why he retreats to the mountains for peace and quiet.

It's far more believable that a (trigger warning) global Jesus figure would be a point of contention or worship. Dent was just an up-and-coming politician, but we were meant to believe all of Gotham would lose hope if he was outed as a killer. That's nonsense. If someone who can save the world with his bare hands dies, that loss is going to be felt, even if you hated the guy. That's what makes more people coming over to the pro-Superman camp believable.

Superman was mourned for being who he WAS.
Dent was mourned for being who he WASN'T.

Big difference. Dent may have been good once, but that's irrelevant when you're covering up the juicy details. The context changers. Superman was a genuine source of inspiration and his message hasn't been corrupted, even though Lex/MSM tried to. The only revelation is that he didn't murder the villagers in Africa. He had nothing to do with the Senate bombing. He was always innocent. He's the one who is owed an apology.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: Dagenspear on Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 01:08
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 13 Nov  2017, 00:33It's far more believable that a (trigger warning) global Jesus figure would be a point of contention or worship. Dent was just an up-and-coming politician, but we were meant to believe all of Gotham would lose hope if he was outed as a killer. That's nonsense. If someone who can save the world with his bare hands dies, that loss is going to be felt, even if you hated the guy. That's what makes more people coming over to the pro-Superman camp believable.
It absolutely is nonsense. And that's the point. The city won't and doesn't descend into chaos because of his criminality. Joker, Batman and Gordon are wrong. The movie is fair with how Dent's treated in his death. People don't unite under him. People don't love him who hated him. If society is divided, it will stay divided. That loss won't change anyone for Superman. That loss means no more than the massive amounts of death that happen to children every day that no one does anything about. That's cynical. That lives of many mean less than one, hero or not.
QuoteSuperman was mourned for being who he WAS.
Dent was mourned for being who he WASN'T.
He wasn't truly mourned at all. That's the thing about this attempt to twist TDKT into seeming like there's a similarity. No one united under Dent's death. Even Dent's heroism accomplished very little. That's the thing. That movies treated it for what it was. BvS doesn't. The only people who cared about Dent's death in TDKRises are the people using it for personal or political gain.
QuoteBig difference. Dent may have been good once, but that's irrelevant when you're covering up the juicy details. The context changers. Superman was a genuine source of inspiration and his message hasn't been corrupted, even though Lex/MSM tried to. The only revelation is that he didn't murder the villagers in Africa. He had nothing to do with the Senate bombing. He was always innocent. He's the one who is owed an apology.
No. He wasn't responsible for it directly, but his fight with Zod did cause the Metropolis destruction and did kill people. And he doesn't care. That doesn't mean he should locked up. But he should be treated with hesitancy. Him being able to be manipulated by Lex and throwing a human being through a building showcases his lack innocence. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: thecolorsblend on Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 01:12
Not the exact same! Therefore totally opposite!
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: Dagenspear on Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 01:25
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Wed,  8 Nov  2017, 10:37I would like to say this.

I am deeply troubled by the thought that anybody would feel more sympathy for Harvey Dent, who got corrupted by the Joker and became an evil scumbag who tried to murder a child, than Superman, who refused to let Lex Luthor corrupt him and gave his life to protect the world from Doomsday. If that's the popular consensus, that's incredibly sad.

I know which character earns the title "hero".
Harvey Dent isn't a hero. That's the point. Even after being lied about dying a hero, his death is only used politically. The people barely care.
Quote from: Travesty on Sun, 12 Nov  2017, 18:34Yeah, it's actually one of my biggest gripes about TDK. Batman went out of his way to cover up the crimes and deaths of a villain. The fact that Batman rather be seen as a villain, because he's more concerned with covering up what the real villain actually did, just never seemed right to me.
Good. The movies agree with you. It sits right with no one in the movies either.
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 13 Nov  2017, 01:12Not the exact same! Therefore totally opposite!
Exact opposites in meaning, story and character. You use a false equivalency again, trying to troll me for no reason.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 17 Dec 2017, 03:20
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 13 Nov  2017, 00:33
It's only after the Africa incident and the defacing of the statue does public sentiment turn. As Perry White ponders, "end of love affair with man in the sky?" And even then, opinion was split. This is physically shown during the Senate hearing. Outside we see protesters screaming their guts out AGAINST Superman, but we also see people FOR Superman. Superman is smiling and greeted with respect when he saves the child from the fire. What brings him down is the constant media chatter. That's why he retreats to the mountains for peace and quiet.

Superman was a genuine source of inspiration and his message hasn't been corrupted, even though Lex/MSM tried to. The only revelation is that he didn't murder the villagers in Africa. He had nothing to do with the Senate bombing. He was always innocent. He's the one who is owed an apology. 

The media loves to fuel speculation, which influences doubts on an unsuspecting public. When we see the news reporting on the Capitol bombing and Jenny reading her story at the Daily Planet in the Ultimate Edition, you hear speculation whether or not Superman was involved in the attack. You can never underestimate how the power of the press can manipulate people's emotions. Even more so when a paranoid and skeptical individual like Batman would feel his "1% chance" declaration is totally justified.

Critics would probably say Superman should've said something instead of flying away, but that still wouldn't have prevented the media from skewing public perception. In real life, sometimes when one finds themselves stuck in a predicament that's out of their control, they're either damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: thecolorsblend on Sun, 17 Dec 2017, 03:46
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 17 Dec  2017, 03:20Critics would probably say Superman should've said something instead of flying away, but that still wouldn't have prevented the media from skewing public perception. In real life, sometimes when one finds themselves stuck in a predicament that's out of their control, they're either damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Strange to think how all that was laid out on the table before #FakeNews ever became a meme.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Wed, 31 Jan 2018, 14:08
Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 17 Dec  2017, 03:46
Quote from: The Laughing Fish on Sun, 17 Dec  2017, 03:20Critics would probably say Superman should've said something instead of flying away, but that still wouldn't have prevented the media from skewing public perception. In real life, sometimes when one finds themselves stuck in a predicament that's out of their control, they're either damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Strange to think how all that was laid out on the table before #FakeNews ever became a meme.

I'm inclined to think it was a coincidence. With that said, I find it hard pressed to remember which other superhero film that analyses how contemporary media can manipulate the narrative as BvS. Maybe on a subconscious level, that's another reason why journalists (and when it comes to entertainment, I use the term loosely) don't like this movie. They were expecting their fictional counterparts to embrace Superman with open arms, but instead they were reminded how their ilk can have a toxic influence on society by creating division and prejudice. Even with using the slightest of misinformation and speculation.

Fortunately, Lois Lane was the one honest journalist who played a significant part in bringing down Lex. Then again, I could be just talking right out of my ass by writing this entire comment.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Dark Knight on Fri, 2 Feb 2018, 03:54
Dawn of Justice was a realistic representation of the FAKE NEWS media.

Superman has nothing to do with the Congress bombing and he helps save injured members of the public.

But what does CNN get out of that? Here's a quote from the film, as stated by the 'news' anchor.

"There are so many unanswered questions, chief among them if Superman was involved in the PLANNING of this attack."

And what is their headline in big letters? 'WAS SUPERMAN INVOLVED?'

Jenny from the Daily Planet says this after reading from her 'story':

"And so we are left to wonder if Superman was aware of the threat and did nothing, was he then complicit in the Capitol tragedy?"

These outlets whipped up a frenzy against an INNOCENT MAN. Effigies are burned. It's all accusation and no evidence. Feelings override facts and apologies aren't given. And if they are, they're not worth spit. Absolutely disgusting.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Sat, 3 Feb 2018, 00:39
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  2 Feb  2018, 03:54
Dawn of Justice was a realistic representation of the FAKE NEWS media.

I think it reflects how that entire industry is so ruthless and obsessed with sensationalism that it even taints good-natured people who work within it. Another example is Perry White. He's not a bad man by any means, but even he is guilty of speculating instead of going after facts. As soon as he finds out about Wallace Keefe defacing the Superman statue, he immediately tells everyone at the Daily Planet to start working on tomorrow's headline: "Is the love affair with the man in the sky over?". Superman might've already had a divided impact on the world, but Perry pushing for this narrative certainly makes the situation worse.

But I guess when you've been working in a declining industry such as print media, it's your job as the editor to go after stories that will grab people's attention, no matter if there's any real basis behind it. After all, it's more interesting to speculate over the most powerful man in the world and indirectly fuel suspicions and paranoia that he could betray the human race one day, than questioning if a rogue vigilante is violating civil rights in a certain city. You could tell that Perry looked guilty when he looked at the headline reporting Superman's brave sacrifice in the printing room.
Title: Re: Men are still good
Post by: The Laughing Fish on Fri, 9 Feb 2018, 13:45
^Following up to what I last said, it amuses me that we see the media's pursuit for juicy headlines and provocative stories based on rumours and allegations surrounding Superman in BvS, and in the real world, we see online entertainment always speculating the future of DCEU actors for clicks.

This film really highlights the frenzy and manipulation the media creates. Life imitates art.