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It's official: the Punisher is getting his own TV show on Netflix. I can't wait, Jon Bernthal as Frank Castle was a huge highlight in Daredevil Season 2.

Source: http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/29/11535694/the-punisher-marvel-netflix-series-daredevil-spinoff

Here is the teaser poster underneath.

(http://www.ew.com/sites/default/files/1461934170/RS_Punisher_Series_Coming_RAB_02a.png)

Shooting has wrapped on the first season. Deborah Ann Woll will be appearing as Karen Page, Ebon Moss-Bachrach is playing Micro, and Ben Barnes is playing Billy Russo. With any luck, Russo will transform into Jigsaw before the end of the season. Marvel's Netflix shows have an excellent track record when it comes to villains, so I've got high hopes for Barnes.

First pics of Jon Bernthal wearing the classic costume on the set of The Punisher:


So that's one way in which it's already topped Iron Fist.

Comic-Con poster by Joe Quesada:

Still no official release date yet, but it looks like this will be out sometime in November. Meanwhile here's a new picture of Frank in the Punisher costume.

I think the 2004 Punisher film is underrated, and I enjoyed it a lot back in the day. Tom Jane was excellent in my opinion. If fans haven't seen Dirty Laundry, where he reprises his role, do so. It's only about 10 minutes in length but is a love letter to the character. He's depicted as a compassionate but very violent hero looking out for the little guy. Between this short film and his 2004 feature film, Jane managed to convey a likability and warmth to the character that I think is rather amazing.

I enjoy all the Punisher movies to varying degrees. The 1989 film might not be a great Punisher movie, but it's a solid Dolph Lundgren action flick. And I'll watch more or less anything with Dolph in. It also contains one of my favourite action movie one-liners from the eighties:

QuoteJAKE: What the f--- do you call 125 murders in 5 years?
PUNISHER: Work in progress.

I think the 2004 film is the best movie overall. Jane made for a likeable and sympathetic Frank Castle and he had a strong supporting cast backing him up. It's a good revenge story with more than a hint of George Miller's original Mad Max (1979). It does deviate from the comics in some areas, but it also adapts quite a bit from Garth Ennis' Punisher: Welcome Back, Frank (2000-2001) miniseries: specifically Frank living in the apartment building with Joan, Mr Bumpo and Spacker Dave, and of course the epic fight scene against the Russian. It's a shame they never followed through on this with a proper feature length sequel. But at least Jane got a decent send-off in the form of Dirty Laundry.


Punisher: War Zone (2008) is easily the goriest Punisher movie to date and it's also the one that sticks closest to the comics (not that that makes it any good). It's campy and over-the-top violent, but I've got a bit of a soft spot for it. There's a definite Batman '89 influence at work in that film. Just compare the scene in War Zone where Frank drops Russoti into the grinder at the recycling plant with the scene where Batman drops Napier into the vat at Axis Chemicals. And then there's this scene:


Of the three theatrical Punisher movies, War Zone is probably the one the new TV series will most closely resemble, what with the darker tone and hard-R violence. Ben Barnes is playing Jigsaw in the TV series; the same villain portrayed by Dominic West in the 2008 film. And Microchip appears in both stories too. So there should be several points of comparison.

My favourite Punisher overall is definitely Bernthal and I can't wait to see the first season of his solo series. It'll be nice to have a new ultraviolent superhero show to watch on those dull November nights when the Halloween season is over and the Christmas season not yet arrived.

I've said some bad things about Frank Castle in the past. Such as I found the character one note and not particularly memorable. But my opinions have changed, even though elements of them remain. I admit that my knowledge of the character's world is limited, but at the core, The Punisher is cathartic. It's satisfying to see someone take down the badly guys in such a ruthless way. It's a primal human emotion and that's what the Punisher is all about. Watching that Dirty Laundry clip brought that feeling back. I was peeved Jane didn't do a sequel. Honestly, the recasting issue in War Zone sapped my enthusiasm and I don't think I saw the film. But I'm open to exploring the Punisher more, especially given the John Wick trends these days. I guess from a DC point of view, it's like Red Hood taking on Black Mask.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 22 Aug  2017, 13:47
Such as I found the character one note and not particularly memorable.

Well to be fair, the Punisher is pretty one note. But that's part of his appeal. He's completely focused on his end goal and is entirely unapologetic about the means he'll take to get there. He's got a one-way ticket to hell and wants to take along as many criminals with him as possible.

Earlier this year I was trying to decide which comic book superhero is the darkest, and a number of obvious candidates sprang to mind. There are demonic antiheroes like Faust, Hellboy and Spawn, and there are vengeful wraiths like Spectre, Ghost Rider and the Crow, and there are misunderstood monsters like Swamp Thing, Hulk and the Ninja Turtles, and there are fascist antiheroes like Judge Dredd, Manchester Black and the Comedian, and there are psychologically damaged antiheroes like Azrael, Jessica Jones and Rorschach, and there are occult heroes like Constantine, Doctor Strange and Vampirella.

But really, I think the Punisher is the darkest superhero of all. This guy's entire existence is pain and death. And the tragic part of it is that Frank was once a good man. He'd trained to be a priest. He'd served his country in the armed forces. He'd been a loving husband and father. He was a soldier, a patriot and a hero. Then one horrible tragedy completely destroyed him – emotionally, psychologically, morally – and left a monster where a good man had once stood. He can't be reasoned with and he shows no mercy towards his enemies. He's a Terminator in human form. A one man killing machine.

And yet there's a crude black and white morality to what he does. He won't kill an innocent person. At worst he'll knock out anyone who gets in his way. But he won't slay a law-abiding citizen or a fellow hero (if indeed the Punisher can even be described as a 'hero'). If superheroes are power fantasies, then Punisher is the embodiment of our collective desire for retribution. He's the ultimate revenge fantasy. And while his methods are appalling, there's a deep and dark place inside each of us that secretly relishes the idea of there being someone like him out there. A serial killer who only targets evil. The Punisher is terrifying. But he's on our side. There's comfort in that. We cheer him on while simultaneously condemning his actions.

Others may disagree with me on this next point, but I believe the Punisher versus Daredevil rivalry is by far the best superhero rivalry out there. They aren't at loggerheads because of some contrived circumstantial grievance. Instead the source of Frank and Matt's disagreement arises from the fundamental incompatibility of their core motivations and beliefs. Theirs isn't a situational conflict like Civil War, but rather an ideological impasse from which neither is willing to back down. As long as these two men are out fighting crime in the same universe, they're destined to oppose one another. They can't just say 'well you go your way and I'll go mine' because their paths are unavoidably crossed.


They're also more evenly matched than most other hero/hero rivals. They come from similar New York backgrounds, they're within the same height and weight bracket, they're both human, they're both skilled in unarmed combat, interrogation and tracking techniques, they both have insanely high pain thresholds, they're both extremely intelligent and utterly uncompromising in their convictions. Matt has the advantage in terms of martial arts skill, agility, reflexes and sensory abilities, while Frank has the advantage in terms of weaponry, technology, brutality and ruthlessness. But despite their differences, there is a mutual respect between them. I always think Frank secretly rather likes Matt (see the time he got himself arrested so he could bust Matt out of prison), and Matt harbours tremendous compassion towards Frank, even though they do both piss each other off. There's a great dynamic between them. And on the rare occasions when they work together – now there's something special.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 22 Aug  2017, 13:47But I'm open to exploring the Punisher more, especially given the John Wick trends these days. I guess from a DC point of view, it's like Red Hood taking on Black Mask.

Pretty much. It's not a great piece of cinema by any stretch, but it's worth seeing if you're into dark and gory superhero films. I expect a lot of people will be revisiting War Zone in the run-up to the new TV series, if only to refresh their memories of the first live action battle between Punisher and Jigsaw.

the awesome thing about the PUnisher and Daredevil are just how different they are from other heroes.

The Punisher breaks the one rule that other super heroes live by. Even though it will never happen, I'd love to see what Bale's Batman would do in a world with the punisher.

Daredevil has always been appealing to me because while the other super heroes all have something which makes them special, he's the only one with a handicap. His powers are all self-taught like Batman only he doesn't have the bank roll or even the sense of sight.

Yep, Daredevil's a rare example of a superhero who is as much defined by what he can't do as what he can. Typically superheroes are defined by abilities, not disabilities. Matt's defined by a mixture of the two. It's another of those fascinating paradoxes that make him so compelling – he's blind, and yet he perceives the world around him more accurately than any sighted person could.

I just rewatched Punisher: War Zone last night and noted a few more parallels with Batman '89.

•   The second set piece involving the hero is a shootout in an industrial environment. In B89 it's a chemical plant, while in PWZ it's a recycling facility.
•   The sequence ends with the hero knocking a mobster off a gantry and into a large receptacle containing a substance that disfigures him (chemicals/broken glass).
•   The scene with the surgeon informing the mobster the nerves in his face were severed, then removing the bandages to expose the botched reconstruction. The scene is shot from behind the mobster as he looks in a hand mirror and sees what a mess has been made of his face.
•   "Jack is dead, my friend. You can call me... Joker." "Billy is dead. From now on... you call me Jigsaw."
•   The deformed mobster holds a meeting to consolidate his power, during which he murders one of the attendees in front of the other criminals.
•   The hero is fully established as a crime fighter at the start of the film. His origin story – specifically the death of his loved ones – is only fleetingly shown in flashbacks.
•   Subplot about a character investigating the hero (Vale/Budiansky) who is partnered with another character who's been investigating the same case for a longer period of time (Knox/Soap).

Can anyone spot any more similarities?

I remember I also caught some similarities. There was this topic, back from 2009. But you put it in words much better that I can.

http://www.batman-online.com/forum/index.php?topic=741.0

I would add the mirror scene. One of the first scenes with Billy is when he admires himself in a (car) mirror. His girlfriend approaches him, and he's less than friendly, just like Napier is to Alicia in the B'89 mirror scene. Difference is that Napier scolds her with words ("I didn't ask"), Billy grabs her by the neck.

Oh, wow. I didn't realise we already had a thread on this subject. Thanks for the link, Azrael. You covered all of this eight years ago!

Quote from: Azrael on Wed, 23 Aug  2017, 15:10
I would add the mirror scene. One of the first scenes with Billy is when he admires himself in a (car) mirror. His girlfriend approaches him, and he's less than friendly, just like Napier is to Alicia in the B'89 mirror scene. Difference is that Napier scolds her with words ("I didn't ask"), Billy grabs her by the neck.

That's another great observation. The narcissistic mobster mistreating his GF while he admires himself in the mirror. These parallels are too numerous to be coincidental.

One other thing that just occurred to me – both films include a pastiche of Patton (1970) involving the main villain. In B89 it's the scene where the Joker faces down the Batwing following the parade.


In PWZ it's the scene where Jigsaw delivers his rallying speech in front of the American flag.


I've just been listening to a 2016 episode of Kevin Smith's Fat Man on Batman podcast featuring Punisher: War Zone director and former world kickboxing champion Lexi Alexander. She doesn't mention the Batman '89 influence, but she does reveal a connection between War Zone and another Batman film.

It seems Alexander was originally meant to portray one of the Golum gang members that attacks Bane in the Turkish baths in Batman & Robin (1997). Apparently she had to teach the other gang members how to wield the whip chains and worked on the scene for six weeks. The sequence was initially meant to be longer but Joel Schumacher cut it down and fired her because he wanted the gang to be all male. Doug Hutchison, who played the Golum gang leader, sent her a nice card afterwards offering his sympathies. Years later, when the opportunity came round to direct Punisher: War Zone, Alexander remembered Hutchison's kind gesture and cast him as Loony Bin Jim.

Here's the podcast in case anyone fancies listening to it: https://soundcloud.com/fatmanonbatman/fatman-131?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FatManOnBatman+%28Fat+Man+on+Batman%29&utm_content=FeedBurner

Since West's Jigsaw was clearly a cinematic descendent of Nicholson's Joker, does that mean Barnes' Jigsaw in the new series will be closer to Ledger's? It's going to be interesting contrasting the two when November comes around. In the meantime I'm awaiting the first pics of the MCU Jigsaw's face with a mixture of curiosity and nausea.

QuoteThe narcissistic mobster mistreating his GF while he admires himself in the mirror. These parallels are too numerous to be coincidental.

Yes. If I remember right, it's mentioned in the B'89 novelization that Napier is vain about his looks - in War Zone, Billy is seen taking a good look in a mirror, admiring himself, while talking to his boss (five minutes into the movie).


Even if the list is stripped down to the most immediately obvious (e.g. the surgery), the B'89 influence is undeniable.

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QuoteIt seems Alexander was originally meant to portray one of the Golum gang members that attacks Bane in the Turkish baths in Batman & Robin (1997). Apparently she had to teach the other gang members how to wield the whip chains and worked on the scene for six weeks. The sequence was initially meant to be longer but Joel Schumacher cut it down and fired her because he wanted the gang to be all male. Doug Hutchison, who played the Golum gang leader, sent her a nice card afterwards offering his sympathies. Years later, when the opportunity came round to direct Punisher: War Zone, Alexander remembered Hutchison's kind gesture and cast him as Loony Bin Jim.

This is interesting. I never knew that Loony Bin Jim was in Batman & Robin.

I always thought that the final scene outside the church has lighting a bit similar to the Schumacher Batman movies. There were a few reviews that mentioned the colours.

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QuoteSince West's Jigsaw was clearly a cinematic descendent of Nicholson's Joker, does that mean Barnes' Jigsaw in the new series will be closer to Ledger's? It's going to be interesting contrasting the two when November comes around. In the meantime I'm awaiting the first pics of the MCU Jigsaw's face with a mixture of curiosity and nausea.

There already was one famous case of a Ledger-inspired villain (Bardem in Skyfall), we'll see. D'Onofrio as Kingpin was one for the best comic book villains (maybe the most memorable Marvel villain after Loki), so I also await the Netflix version of Jigsaw. He'll be gruesome, sure, but maybe not too gruesome (à la Eckhart's Two-Face). When it comes to the two seasons of DareDevil, they have an excellent track record with casting.

Quote from: Azrael on Thu, 24 Aug  2017, 09:37This is interesting. I never knew that Loony Bin Jim was in Batman & Robin.

It's quite appropriate when you think about it. Loony Bin Jim was a cannibal, right? I've always primarily associated Hutchison with his early role as Eugene Victor Tooms in the first season of The X-Files. Tooms was also a cannibal. And as for the Golum gang leader:

"Hello, my pretty, pretty, pretty. You look good enough to eat."

On the subject of the Golum gang, does anyone think they're meant to be the same gang Dick fought in Batman Forever? The BF gang is usually referred to as the 'Neon Gang', but we never learned their proper name. Maybe the Golums were all that remained of the group after Batman and Robin got through with them.


There's no shortage of blacklights and fluorescent paint in Schumacher's Gotham, so they could well be two completely unrelated gangs. But it would strike a nice note of continuity if they were the same group.

Quote from: Azrael on Thu, 24 Aug  2017, 09:37I always thought that the final scene outside the church has lighting a bit similar to the Schumacher Batman movies.

I thought that too. The Flash (1990-91) makes similar use of coloured lights. Evidently a number of pre-MCU directors associated that aesthetic with the genre.

Quote from: Azrael on Thu, 24 Aug  2017, 09:37There already was one famous case of a Ledger-inspired villain (Bardem in Skyfall), we'll see. D'Onofrio as Kingpin was one for the best comic book villains (maybe the most memorable Marvel villain after Loki), so I also await the Netflix version of Jigsaw. He'll be gruesome, sure, but maybe not too gruesome (à la Eckhart's Two-Face). When it comes to the two seasons of DareDevil, they have an excellent track record with casting.

For me, Kingpin takes the top spot on the MCU villain leaderboards. Generally I think the Netflix corner of that universe has delivered far more intimidating and memorable bad guys than the theatrical side: Kingpin, Purple Man, Nobu Yoshioka, Cottonmouth, Elektra/Black Sky, etc. Of course the movies have had their share of memorable heels too: Loki, Vulture, Crossbones and the Winter Soldier being my personal favourites. But the TV shows have a better batting average in that area, so I'm glad Jigsaw is getting the R-rated Netflix treatment. I'm also looking forward to seeing who plays Deacon Frost when the inevitable Blade series gets green lit.

But the supervillain I want to see depicted in live action more than any other is, of course, that insufferable a-hole Bullseye. After him it'd be Brainiac, Doctor Doom and Darkseid. But Bullseye is the one I'm most keen to see portrayed successfully. Make it happen, Marvel.

You're right about Bardem's character in Skyfall being indebted to Ledger's Joker. I'd also cite Benedict CumberKhan (or should that be Khanberbatch?) from Star Trek Into Darkness as another villain that took his cues from The Dark Knight (he certainly didn't take them from the awesome Ricardo MontalKhan version). Did you ever play the 2010 remake of GoldenEye, Azrael? If we're talking Bond villains influenced by Ledger, just check out what 006 looked like in that game.


Maybe it's just my imagination, but that looks an awful lot like Heath Ledger to my eyes. I vaguely recollect the voice actor sounding like Heath as well.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 25 Aug  2017, 17:57

It's quite appropriate when you think about it. Loony Bin Jim was a cannibal, right? I've always primarily associated Hutchison with his early role as Eugene Victor Tooms in the first season of The X-Files. Tooms was also a cannibal. And as for the Golum gang leader:

"Hello, my pretty, pretty, pretty. You look good enough to eat."

On the subject of the Golum gang, does anyone think they're meant to be the same gang Dick fought in Batman Forever? The BF gang is usually referred to as the 'Neon Gang', but we never learned their proper name. Maybe the Golums were all that remained of the group after Batman and Robin got through with them.

(http://caps.pictures/199/5-batman-forever/full/batman-forever-movie-screencaps.com-7846.jpg)

(http://caps.pictures/199/7-batman-robin/full/batman-robin-movie-screencaps.com-6688.jpg)

There's no shortage of blacklights and fluorescent paint in Schumacher's Gotham, so they could well be two completely unrelated gangs. But it would strike a nice note of continuity if they were the same group.

Always assumed it's the same group. You fight these guys in the Batman & Robin game (which isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is).

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 25 Aug  2017, 17:57

I thought that too. The Flash (1990-91) makes similar use of coloured lights. Evidently a number of pre-MCU directors associated that aesthetic with the genre.

In hindsight, this isn't a bad thing (when not overdone). I hope more follow. In light of what Nolan has done (everything has to look mundane), a bit more colour is welcome.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 25 Aug  2017, 17:57

For me, Kingpin takes the top spot on the MCU villain leaderboards. Generally I think the Netflix corner of that universe has delivered far more intimidating and memorable bad guys than the theatrical side: Kingpin, Purple Man, Nobu Yoshioka, Cottonmouth, Elektra/Black Sky, etc. Of course the movies have had their share of memorable heels too: Loki, Vulture, Crossbones and the Winter Soldier being my personal favourites. But the TV shows have a better batting average in that area, so I'm glad Jigsaw is getting the R-rated Netflix treatment. I'm also looking forward to seeing who plays Deacon Frost when the inevitable Blade series gets green lit.

Effective and menacing is a bit different than memorable IMO. I had to look up to remember a few of these guys! Don't get me wrong - I think they were great, but none had the charisma of Kingpin, Loki or, yes, MK's Vulture. I wouldn't count Elektra and Winter Soldier as true villains (a bit like Catwoman, an anti-hero/anti-villain thing).

I think DC overall had better luck with villains - most performances (from the 60s till now) are memorable and quotable.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 25 Aug  2017, 17:57
But the supervillain I want to see depicted in live action more than any other is, of course, that insufferable a-hole Bullseye. After him it'd be Brainiac, Doctor Doom and Darkseid. But Bullseye is the one I'm most keen to see portrayed successfully. Make it happen, Marvel.

Agreed. Even Collin Farrel was at least entertaining in the role - I'd love to see what they would do with a proper adaptation. As for Doom, a proper screen version of Doom should have the same effect Darth Vader had to kids of the late 70s/early 80s. Never been really a fan of FF comics, but always loved Victor Von Doom.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 25 Aug  2017, 17:57
You're right about Bardem's character in Skyfall being indebted to Ledger's Joker. I'd also cite Benedict CumberKhan (or should that be Khanberbatch?) from Star Trek Into Darkness as another villain that took his cues from The Dark Knight (he certainly didn't take them from the awesome Ricardo MontalKhan version). Did you ever play the 2010 remake of GoldenEye, Azrael? If we're talking Bond villains influenced by Ledger, just check out what 006 looked like in that game.

(https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/goldeneye/images/0/0b/GoldenEye-007_alec.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110804190451)

Maybe it's just my imagination, but that looks an awful lot like Heath Ledger to my eyes. I vaguely recollect the voice actor sounding like Heath as well.

Agreed. I'm sure there's a few more, we are not aware of them. That's the one thing I don't like about Ledger's Joker - the copycats because of the insane popularity (especially late 2000s/early 2010s). I still love his performance and think it's the single most entertaining thing in the entire Nolan trilogy (and one of the most entertaining in Batman's history), but most copies are little more than shadows. At least copies of Jack Nicholson's Joker (like Michael Ironside in Highlander II) tend to be more fun.

I never played Goldeneye 2010, unfortunately. I like Bond, but I'm not a big enough fan to play everything with the license, and I remember what put me off was that it was a modernization and not a remake of the actual GoldenEye with Brosnan and co. Yes, id made sense to replace Brosnan with the then current face of Bond (Craig), but for me GoldenEye has the face of Pierce Brosnan.

Quote from: Azrael on Sat, 26 Aug  2017, 19:18I think DC overall had better luck with villains - most performances (from the 60s till now) are memorable and quotable.

True. As far as the comics go, I think Marvel might actually have a larger line-up of classic villains overall than DC. But when it comes to live action treatments, DC has done a better job of translating their classic rogues into equally memorable screen villains.

Quote from: Azrael on Sat, 26 Aug  2017, 19:18Agreed. Even Collin Farrel was at least entertaining in the role - I'd love to see what they would do with a proper adaptation. As for Doom, a proper screen version of Doom should have the same effect Darth Vader had to kids of the late 70s/early 80s. Never been really a fan of FF comics, but always loved Victor Von Doom.

I've always imagined an ideal live action incarnation of Doom to be a cross between Vader and Hans Gruber. With any luck Fox will eventually give him back to Marvel and he'll get a decent cinematic representation at last.

As for Bullseye, his fights against Daredevil in the TV show need to be the best martial arts scenes ever filmed for a superhero production. They have to push the envelope on the choreography and deliver something insanely fast and brutal as hell. Here are a couple of cool fan-made items that illustrate the level of aggression I'm looking for.



The TV show has thus far surpassed my loftiest expectations, and for the third season they're tackling what I consider to be Frank Miller's finest work as a writer (yes, even better than The Dark Knight Returns IMO). The end result has to be at least an 8.5/10. Anything less is a disservice to the source material and the previous seasons of the TV show.

Quote from: Azrael on Sat, 26 Aug  2017, 19:18Agreed. I'm sure there's a few more, we are not aware of them. That's the one thing I don't like about Ledger's Joker - the copycats because of the insane popularity (especially late 2000s/early 2010s). I still love his performance and think it's the single most entertaining thing in the entire Nolan trilogy (and one of the most entertaining in Batman's history), but most copies are little more than shadows. At least copies of Jack Nicholson's Joker (like Michael Ironside in Highlander II) tend to be more fun.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who spotted the Nicholson influence on Ironside's performance. Highlander II came out in 1991, so Batman 89 would still have been very much in vogue at the time. When Dolph Lundgren was promoting Universal Soldier (1992) he compared his character Sgt. Andrew Scott to Nicholson's Joker, so there's another movie villain that's partly descended from B89. I'm sure there are others too. We could probably have a whole thread on this subject.

Quote from: Azrael on Sat, 26 Aug  2017, 19:18I never played Goldeneye 2010, unfortunately. I like Bond, but I'm not a big enough fan to play everything with the license, and I remember what put me off was that it was a modernization and not a remake of the actual GoldenEye with Brosnan and co. Yes, id made sense to replace Brosnan with the then current face of Bond (Craig), but for me GoldenEye has the face of Pierce Brosnan.

The remake was ok. I played through it once and never bothered revisiting it. I was part of the generation reared on the N64 game, so I have a strong bias towards the original. But the remake wasn't bad for a modern shooter.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 27 Aug  2017, 22:30
As for Bullseye, his fights against Daredevil in the TV show need to be the best martial arts scenes ever filmed for a superhero production. They have to push the envelope on the choreography and deliver something insanely fast and brutal as hell. Here are a couple of cool fan-made items that illustrate the level of aggression I'm looking for.

Mugen. Always one for interesting combinations.

DD 1-2 had among the best, not to worry, it seems that great fight scenes are one of their priorities.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 27 Aug  2017, 22:30

The TV show has thus far surpassed my loftiest expectations, and for the third season they're tackling what I consider to be Frank Miller's finest work as a writer (yes, even better than The Dark Knight Returns IMO). The end result has to be at least an 8.5/10. Anything less is a disservice to the source material and the previous seasons of the TV show.

Oh yes. I was one of those only vaguely familiar with DD comics, this series made me interested in checking them out. Easily one of my favourite live action superhero movies/series after Batman. Still haven't watched Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and the Defenders, though, but I can't wait for the Punisher and DD3 (when it eventually comes).

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 27 Aug  2017, 22:30

I'm glad I'm not the only person who spotted the Nicholson influence on Ironside's performance. Highlander II came out in 1991, so Batman 89 would still have been very much in vogue at the time. When Dolph Lundgren was promoting Universal Soldier (1992) he compared his character Sgt. Andrew Scott to Nicholson's Joker, so there's another movie villain that's partly descended from B89. I'm sure there are others too. We could probably have a whole thread on this subject.

There should be!

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 27 Aug  2017, 22:30

The remake was ok. I played through it once and never bothered revisiting it. I was part of the generation reared on the N64 game, so I have a strong bias towards the original. But the remake wasn't bad for a modern shooter.

I take it you're Nintendo.

(http://orig13.deviantart.net/cdef/f/2016/209/4/9/sonic_mania_sonic_sprite_by_titotheog-dabrp2r.png)

Quote from: Azrael on Mon, 28 Aug  2017, 18:58Oh yes. I was one of those only vaguely familiar with DD comics, this series made me interested in checking them out. Easily one of my favourite live action superhero movies/series after Batman. Still haven't watched Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, and the Defenders, though, but I can't wait for the Punisher and DD3 (when it eventually comes).

My special area of interest is obviously DD, so the other Netflix shows don't appeal to me as much. But I've watched all of them so far and found each to be reasonably enjoyable. However none of the other shows comes close to DD in terms of quality or sheer awesomeness. You should certainly check out The Defenders though, Azrael. I don't want to give spoilers away, but it ends with Matt in a situation that will lead directly into DD season 3. It's sort of like DD season 2.5.

Quote from: Azrael on Mon, 28 Aug  2017, 18:58I take it you're Nintendo.

(http://orig13.deviantart.net/cdef/f/2016/209/4/9/sonic_mania_sonic_sprite_by_titotheog-dabrp2r.png)

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 28 Aug  2017, 22:20

My special area of interest is obviously DD, so the other Netflix shows don't appeal to me as much. But I've watched all of them so far and found each to be reasonably enjoyable. However none of the other shows comes close to DD in terms of quality or sheer awesomeness. You should certainly check out The Defenders though, Azrael. I don't want to give spoilers away, but it ends with Matt in a situation that will lead directly into DD season 3. It's sort of like DD season 2.5.

It's only that I found the others less than interesting - and all this talk of the first season of Iron Fist being not being very good..

Well, since I assume it's not mandatory to have watched the other three, and since as you say it's essentially DD 2.5, I'll check it out.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 28 Aug  2017, 22:20

Quote from: Azrael on Mon, 28 Aug  2017, 18:58I take it you're Nintendo.

(http://orig13.deviantart.net/cdef/f/2016/209/4/9/sonic_mania_sonic_sprite_by_titotheog-dabrp2r.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/DqVYRUf.gif)

Does this mean we have to start fighting, lol.

Quote from: Azrael on Tue, 29 Aug  2017, 17:03

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 28 Aug  2017, 22:20

My special area of interest is obviously DD, so the other Netflix shows don't appeal to me as much. But I've watched all of them so far and found each to be reasonably enjoyable. However none of the other shows comes close to DD in terms of quality or sheer awesomeness. You should certainly check out The Defenders though, Azrael. I don't want to give spoilers away, but it ends with Matt in a situation that will lead directly into DD season 3. It's sort of like DD season 2.5.

It's only that I found the others less than interesting - and all this talk of the first season of Iron Fist being not being very good..

Well, since I assume it's not mandatory to have watched the other three, and since as you say it's essentially DD 2.5, I'll check it out.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 28 Aug  2017, 22:20

Quote from: Azrael on Mon, 28 Aug  2017, 18:58I take it you're Nintendo.

(http://orig13.deviantart.net/cdef/f/2016/209/4/9/sonic_mania_sonic_sprite_by_titotheog-dabrp2r.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/DqVYRUf.gif)

Does this mean we have to start fighting, lol.

I felt Daredevil was by far the best series, Defenders was a notch below DD, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage half a notch below the Defenders and the Iron Fist another notch below JJ and LC.

As far as prerequisites before watching the Defenders? DD definitely as characters from his series play pivotal roles in the defenders. Iron fist's story is important as it develops the villain organization the Hand. You COULD get away with skipping over JJ and LC, their stories are fleshed out slightly in the early episode but not much of their world crosses over into the defenders.

Quote from: Azrael on Tue, 29 Aug  2017, 17:03Does this mean we have to start fighting, lol.

Fire flowers at dawn. Ten paces.


Actually I've heard Sonic Mania is currently the best patformer on the Switch (at least until Mario Odyssey comes out), as well as the best Sonic game in years. Just think about that for a second – the best Sonic game in ages is on a Nintendo platform, and the best platformer on a Nintendo console is currently a Sonic game.

How times change.

Quote from: riddler on Wed, 30 Aug  2017, 15:29
I felt Daredevil was by far the best series, Defenders was a notch below DD, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage half a notch below the Defenders and the Iron Fist another notch below JJ and LC.

I go back and forth on JJ, LC and IF, but I basically rank them the same as you, riddler. DD's easily the best. Defenders is my second favourite. I know I'm not going to like The Punisher as much as DD due to personal bias, but I'm hoping it might top The Defenders and claim second place on the Netflix league tables.

Quote from: riddler on Wed, 30 Aug  2017, 15:29As far as prerequisites before watching the Defenders? DD definitely as characters from his series play pivotal roles in the defenders. Iron fist's story is important as it develops the villain organization the Hand. You COULD get away with skipping over JJ and LC, their stories are fleshed out slightly in the early episode but not much of their world crosses over into the defenders.

Yeah, it could be a bit confusing for anyone who hasn't seen the other shows. But I think Azrael will get the gist of it anyway. The most important thing to know is (SPOILERS for Iron Fist) that Danny Rand is the Iron Fist and is destined to destroy the Hand. In his solo series he befriended a martial artist named Colleen Wing, who was later revealed to have been raised by the Hand. Danny persuaded her that the Hand were evil and Colleen rebelled against them, defeating her former sensei Bakuto in the process. She and Danny then journeyed to K'un-Lun – the mystical Asian kingdom where he was raised – only to discover the Hand had got there first and slaughtered all the monks. END SPOILERS. The Defenders picks up shortly afterwards.

Getting back to The Punisher, a new promo has been released.


It's also been revealed that "another Marvel hero may be showing up," which has led to speculation of Marc Spector (aka Moon Knight) making an appearance.

the one thing the Defenders did which the Avengers did not was not just have these superheroes collide but have their whole worlds collide. Foggy Nelson, Misty Knight, and Trish Walker all end up crossing over into each others worlds, Without spoiling anything, I thought it was touching to have the heroes' loved ones all in the same room during the final battle.

Another big difference from the Avengers is that there is no SHIELD to bring them together. Initially I thought Claire would bring them together but  if anything it was Stick who brought them together, Claire seemed like an unwilling sidekick. The character still gets a good arc though and sends an important message that anyone can be a hero.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 30 Aug  2017, 22:53

Quote from: Azrael on Tue, 29 Aug  2017, 17:03Does this mean we have to start fighting, lol.

Fire flowers at dawn. Ten paces.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/FnjJdizKUqyME/giphy.gif)

Actually I've heard Sonic Mania is currently the best patformer on the Switch (at least until Mario Odyssey comes out), as well as the best Sonic game in years. Just think about that for a second – the best Sonic game in ages is on a Nintendo platform, and the best platformer on a Nintendo console is currently a Sonic game.

How times change.

That hatchet has been buried long ago (it's surprising, however, that in certain corners of the internet the big 90's Console War lives on), but if it ever comes to that, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aq_dOLFmxA

Yeah, even after all these years, I find it funny when I see a Sonic game on a Nintendo console.

Quote from: riddler on Wed, 30 Aug  2017, 15:29
As far as prerequisites before watching the Defenders? DD definitely as characters from his series play pivotal roles in the defenders. Iron fist's story is important as it develops the villain organization the Hand. You COULD get away with skipping over JJ and LC, their stories are fleshed out slightly in the early episode but not much of their world crosses over into the defenders.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed, 30 Aug  2017, 22:53

Quote from: riddler on Wed, 30 Aug  2017, 15:29
I felt Daredevil was by far the best series, Defenders was a notch below DD, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage half a notch below the Defenders and the Iron Fist another notch below JJ and LC.

I go back and forth on JJ, LC and IF, but I basically rank them the same as you, riddler. DD's easily the best. Defenders is my second favourite. I know I'm not going to like The Punisher as much as DD due to personal bias, but I'm hoping it might top The Defenders and claim second place on the Netflix league tables.

Quote from: riddler on Wed, 30 Aug  2017, 15:29As far as prerequisites before watching the Defenders? DD definitely as characters from his series play pivotal roles in the defenders. Iron fist's story is important as it develops the villain organization the Hand. You COULD get away with skipping over JJ and LC, their stories are fleshed out slightly in the early episode but not much of their world crosses over into the defenders.

Yeah, it could be a bit confusing for anyone who hasn't seen the other shows. But I think Azrael will get the gist of it anyway. The most important thing to know is (SPOILERS for Iron Fist) that Danny Rand is the Iron Fist and is destined to destroy the Hand. In his solo series he befriended a martial artist named Colleen Wing, who was later revealed to have been raised by the Hand. Danny persuaded her that the Hand were evil and Colleen rebelled against them, defeating her former sensei Bakuto in the process. She and Danny then journeyed to K'un-Lun – the mystical Asian kingdom where he was raised – only to discover the Hand had got there first and slaughtered all the monks. END SPOILERS. The Defenders picks up shortly afterwards.

Getting back to The Punisher, a new promo has been released.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPN4xOGzxSc

It's also been revealed that "another Marvel hero may be showing up," which has led to speculation of Marc Spector (aka Moon Knight) making an appearance.

Defenders: Well, it seems nothing that can't be fixed by reading the "manual". I don't mind spoilers.

Punisher: If we go by Frank Castle in DD2, it seems Garth Ennis is one of their prime inspirations. I'm pretty confident it will be second best after their flagship, DD. Not exactly a Punisher fan but the Garth Ennis run (Marvel Knights, MAX, some mini-series) are favourites of mine, so I'll catch it the moment it's released.

Nice inclusion of Metallica's One there.

Looks brutal. Hopefully this will be a return to form for Netflix, because I've been underwhelmed by their recent Marvel shows.

It's odd they still haven't announced a release date for this show. It's meant to be out in the next 2-3 months, yet they still haven't revealed when. With cast members scheduled to appear at NY Comic Con next week, we should have something concrete soon. But for now, here's the latest poster.

Earlier this week it was reported The Punisher panel had been cancelled from NY Comic-Con in the wake of the Las Vegas shooting. Now there are rumours the series itself is being delayed out of sensitivity to the victims.

On an unrelated note, I noticed that Chris Brewster, Charlie Cox's stunt double, is listed on the IMDb as appearing in two episodes. I wonder if we should read anything into that...

This series comes in at a very interesting time given that the gun debate in America (and up here in Canada too) is as strong as it's ever been so I wonder how political this series will get? The character itself took some backlash with a cosplayer dressed up as the Punisher bringing in a loaded shotgun attempting to allegedly kill Jason David Frank (the Green Power Ranger) at comic con.

A new trailer is out, and the show will debut next month on the very same day Justice League hits theatres.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMW_dPtm7Bo

The Las Vegas shooting last month stole some of the wind from this series' sails in the run-up to its release. The hype all but died overnight and the premiere was delayed. Now that it's out, and has met with a decidedly mixed response from critics, I can't help but wonder if the tragedy of October's shooting cast a shadow over the public's perception of the series. Regardless, I concluded my own viewing of the first season this afternoon. I've got quite a lot to say about it, so here are my thoughts. SPOILERS ahead.

Most Marvel Netflix shows have issues with pacing, and The Punisher is no exception. But where most of these shows start off strong and run out of steam towards the end, The Punisher starts off slow and picks up speed as it progresses. The pacing problems in the first few episodes mostly arise from the large number of supporting characters. Some of these are more interesting than others. Fortunately the characters I was least interested in tended to be the ones that got killed early on. As the plot advances and the cast is thinned, the focus gradually narrows until only the most engaging protagonists remain. When this happens, the pacing improves and the intensity escalates.

However there's still a problem of repetition – there are too many scenes where the Punisher is caught in the sights of an opponent and should, by rights, be shot. But in every instance he somehow manages to escape from these seemingly inescapable standoffs. By the end of the season, I'd grown tired of seeing these scenarios play out again and again. When the hero evades death with such frequent ease, you run the risk of having the audience perceive them as invincible. The writers of The Punisher compensate for this by showing Frank's vulnerability in other ways. Namely in how often he gets injured. If you thought Matt Murdock took a beating in Daredevil, just wait until you see what Frank goes through in this show. He's definitely cut from the same cloth as John McClane, and his susceptibility to injury adds some much needed tension to action scenes that might otherwise seem one-sided.

The acting is superb. Bernthal made a strong debut in Daredevil season 2, and here he cements his ownership of the title role and manages to build upon the foundations he laid in 2016. Frank is more layered here, and yet his uncompromising single-mindedness remains brutally intact. Ebon Moss-Bachrach is perfect as Micro and I loved the Otacon/Snake relationship between him and Frank. Going off Daredevil season 2, it was hard to imagine the Punisher working alongside an ally. He was too much of a paranoid lone wolf. But the way his solo series introduces their alliance feels entirely credible. Frank initially treats David with the same hostility and violence he shows everyone else. It takes time for trust and friendship to ferment between them, and when it arrives it feels earned. I only hope Micro returns in season 2.

I've also got to single out the performance of Daniel Webber as the damaged young veteran Lewis Wilson (named after the Batman actor, perhaps?). This character bore more than a slight resemblance to the original literary incarnation of John Rambo from David Morrell's novel First Blood (1972), and I felt anxious every time he was on screen. Lewis commits some truly horrific acts, but the series never presents him as a one-dimensional monster. His descent into madness and paranoia is portrayed in a chillingly believable way. One moment I felt sorry for him, the next I was itching for the Punisher to blow his brains out. There's a particularly poignant moment where he attempts to release a pair of caged birds into the wild, only to find they won't venture outside. This was a neat metaphor for Lewis' own psychological captivity; the birds were so conditioned to remain in their cage as pets that they could no longer function in the wild, just as Lewis was so conditioned to fighting in a war zone that he could no longer function in ordinary civilian life. Some of the most affecting scenes were those between him and his father, and if I have one criticism of this subplot it's that I wish we could have seen his dad's reaction to the news of his son's death.

The Punisher season 1 continues the Marvel Netflix trend for strong villains. Clancy Brown reprises his role from Daredevil as Colonel Ray Schoonover, and Paul Schulze is suitably loathsome as the Punisher MAX character William Rawlins. Then there's Ben Barnes as Billy Russo. Comic fans will recognise this character as the infamous Jigsaw. Here his origins have been revised to give him a more personal connection to Frank. Barnes plays the role with a cool, understated menace that's the complete opposite of Dominic West's OTT approach in Punisher: War Zone (2008). I never knew Prince Caspian could be so sinister. The final showdown between Russo and Castle on the carousel was a nice throwback to Daredevil season 2, as well as the finale of Alfred Hitchcock's Strangers on a Train (1951). The instant I saw those glass mirrors, I knew exactly how the scene was going to end. And I wasn't disappointed. The only slight disappointment I did have is that we never got to see his scarred Jigsaw face, but I suppose that gives us something to look forward to in the next season.

I was less impressed with the DHS agent Madani. Too often her scenes felt like filler. And early in the season she repeated Misty Knight's unprofessionalism in Luke Cage season 1 by sleeping with a man involved in one of her investigations. To be honest, I could've done without the sex scenes altogether. But ever since Jessica Jones season 1 they seem to be a staple of Marvel's Netflix output. A rather blunt way of showing the audience how grownup these shows are. They usually add nothing to the plot and end up distracting the viewer by making them wonder why every woman in the MCU keeps their nipples covered during intercourse. The violence is also excessive in places and will be off-putting for some of the more squeamish viewers. But the gore does at least feel true to the ultraviolent sensibilities of the Punisher MAX comics, however trashy those sensibilities may be.

All of the other Marvel Netflix series have a dominant colour that characterises the look of each show. In the case of The Punisher, that colour is black. The show's moral and political themes, however, are distinctly grey. The topic of gun control comes up several times throughout the season, but the writers avoid taking a clear stance on the issue. Usually whenever this sensitive subject is tackled in a television drama, it's done so with a clear agenda in mind; the writers are either in favour of private gun ownership or (more likely) they're in favour of tighter gun control laws. But that's not the case here. The writers of The Punisher present both sides of the argument but leave the viewer to draw their own conclusions. This is not a morally didactic programme. It's about provoking discussion, not giving easy answers. I admire the writers and producers for taking that approach.

I've always suspected the topical themes of consent and female empowerment helped elevate Jessica Jones' standing amongst professional critics. In the same way, I fear The Punisher's themes of vigilantism and gun ownership might have the opposite effect. A lot of people view superhero stories as simple black and white morality tales, and it's true that many of the more popular characters lend themselves well to such narratives. But the Punisher has always been an exception. And anyone hoping for a simple guns-are-bad agenda will have to look elsewhere. At the same time, this is not necessarily a pro-gun drama. The horrific consequences of violence are shown in graphic detail, and the psychological trauma suffered by the victims is also depicted. Once again, this is not a morally black and white show. It lacks the Aquinian philosophy of Daredevil and offers a comparatively vague delineation between right and wrong. I expect many of the more politicised reviews will find that aspect of the series difficult to process.

But for me, it's the second best Marvel Netflix entry after Daredevil. Just be warned - it's very, very, very gory.

I just finished the first season and was incredibly disappointed by it. First of all, the storyline is essentially a continuation of his origin, which I thought was already covered in Daredevil. It made for an interesting subplot in Daredevil, but with this show it's the only plot, and not a particularly interesting one at that. 

Second, like Iron Fist, it takes the Marvel/Netflix decompressed storytelling approach to the extreme. Characters have the same conversation again and again. Did you get the symbolism in that scene? If not, don't worry--you'll see it again in the next episode.

I think this would have been a good opportunity for Marvel to try a new approach. Instead of having what was essentially a 13-hour movie, they could have had 13 individual unconnected episodes. Just Frank Castle doing what he does best, with a narrative structure connecting the episodes. Mindhunter is an an excellent example of this approach. And it also has better writing.

Watched a few episodes but gave up. A lot like Luke Cage, this show just didn't really grab me. Maybe it's the pacing. Maybe it's the subject matter, eg, Castle's war back story. Don't know but it's just not what I want right now.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue,  9 Jan  2018, 21:19
Watched a few episodes but gave up. A lot like Luke Cage, this show just didn't really grab me. Maybe it's the pacing. Maybe it's the subject matter, eg, Castle's war back story. Don't know but it's just not what I want right now.

I found that too, I actually thought the early episodes seemed on par with the Iron Fist (which I have a very low opinion of). You should stick around though, I thought the second half of the season greatly improved on the first.

I finally finished watching it just last weekend.

It didn't quite meet my expectations, but all things considered, it was worthwhile to watch. I appreciated how it tackles the themes in PTSD and military corruption. It was a bit refreshing watching a crime thriller as opposed to a brainless action show.

But it's not perfect by any means. This show should've been eight episodes long, and it does drag. Still, I thought it was the best thing that Marvel produced in 2017, both on film and TV. But considering how underwhelmed I was by what was on offer last year, that's not really a great achievement. And yes, I was very disappointed with the Defenders.

Some season 2 location pics have lately appeared online. I'm going to give the production team the benefit of the doubt and assume this isn't what Jigsaw will look like in the finished episodes. They must be planning to digitally enhance his scars or something. Because if this is his final look... damn.


Those scars are extremely mild considering what the Punisher did to him in the season 1 finale.


This is what he should really look like.

Teaser trailer for the upcoming second season is right here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9nca9cktCI

In the likelihood this will also be the final season now that Netflix have cancelled nearly all the other Marvel shows, hopefully The Punisher goes out on a high.

New trailer for the upcoming season is here.

https://youtu.be/jrLhP5sK2wI

Nice rendition of Alice in Chain's Would? to accompany the mood. But I'm disappointed to see Jigsaw's disfigurement is less severe than it should have been. I thought that brutal fight scene with him and the Punisher at the end of the first season would've resulted more horrific injuries.

People say that Marvel has gone all "SJW" in recent years, but I don't think that applies to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I mention this because a media source teased the new villain John Pilgrim as a "MAGA Trump supporting religious fundamentalist." And after seeing season 2, I can tell you that's simply
intentionally dishonest media at play. It's funny that his religious side is more positive than anything, and leads him away from a life of hate. The idea of religion and redemption is almost comparable to Daredevil, although on the flip side, he justifies acts of violence and murder by twisting Bible verses. The big reveal for the character is that he's a mirror of Frank himself, doing acts of evil for a noble cause.

To nobody's surprise, Netflix has officially cancelled The Punisher. They've also pulled the plug on Jessica Jones.

Quote"Marvel's The Punisher will not return for a third season on Netflix," Netflix confirmed today to Deadline. "Showrunner Steve Lightfoot, the terrific crew, and exceptional cast including star Jon Bernthal, delivered an acclaimed and compelling series for fans, and we are proud to showcase their work on Netflix for years to come," the streamer added.

"In addition, in reviewing our Marvel programming, we have decided that the upcoming third season will also be the final season for Marvel's Jessica Jones," Netflix also made official this President's Day. "We are grateful to showrunner Melissa Rosenberg, star Krysten Ritter and the entire cast and crew, for three incredible seasons of this groundbreaking series, which was recognized by the Peabody Awards among many others".

"We are grateful to Marvel for five years of our fruitful partnership and thank the passionate fans who have followed these series from the beginning."

https://deadline.com/2019/02/the-punisher-jessica-jones-canceled-netflix-marvel-krysten-ritter-jon-bernthal-1202535835/

Quote from: Slash Man on Fri,  1 Feb  2019, 04:59
People say that Marvel has gone all "SJW" in recent years, but I don't think that applies to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. I mention this because a media source teased the new villain John Pilgrim as a "MAGA Trump supporting religious fundamentalist." And after seeing season 2, I can tell you that's simply
intentionally dishonest media at play. It's funny that his religious side is more positive than anything, and leads him away from a life of hate. The idea of religion and redemption is almost comparable to Daredevil, although on the flip side, he justifies acts of violence and murder by twisting Bible verses. The big reveal for the character is that he's a mirror of Frank himself, doing acts of evil for a noble cause.

Brie Larson is getting pretty woke these days. It's bad enough that some first weekend box office estimates for Captain Marvel have tumbled by as much as $100 million. At the rate things are going, the movie might barely break even. I'm not predicting anything, you understand. Just saying that the trajectory of the MCU is starting to look like it might follow Star Wars.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 18 Feb  2019, 18:03
To nobody's surprise, Netflix has officially cancelled The Punisher. They've also pulled the plug on Jessica Jones.

Jessica Jones is the one that really hurts. Everybody has always intuitively understood that Daredevil was always a great character even if his live action incarnations didn't really live up to the fullness of the character and his world.

But Netflix put Jessica Jones on the map in a way she never had been before. She got a ton of exposure out of that and is more popular now than she was to begin with. I daresay the character has a brighter future in comics now than she might've had otherwise. As you say, it's not a surprise. But it still hurts a little bit.

Eminem's not happy about the Punisher being cancelled.


He probably misses the good old days when they co-starred in the comics.

I'd rather read the Punisher/Archie crossover again than go anywhere near that.

Quote from: The Joker on Fri, 22 Feb  2019, 04:23I'd rather read the Punisher/Archie crossover again

That's a pretty underrated crossover, in fact. I really dig it.

I never knew Eminem was a comics fan. It's just odd to me for some reason. lol

I'm just disappointed that Uri Geller didn't call out Netflix for cancelling Daredevil.

My memory of it is that I got a few episodes in to season 01 and then abandoned it. I think I was beginning my "I'm fed up with superheroes" thing when that season came out.

Frankly, I'm still not fully out of that phase yet. But the Punisher isn't a superhero in the strictest sense of the word so I've been able to read some Garth Ennis comics.

And now, I'm coming back to the show. And I'm really enjoying it so far. My view has always been that there's not much you can do in terms of character development with Frank Castle. The guy's psychological profile is what it is. The franchise of the Punisher is him swooping in and blowing bad guys into the next life. The show seems to be largely working with that limitation. And it is a limitation, for sure.

Anyway, good show so far.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Tue, 12 Jan  2021, 18:23
My memory of it is that I got a few episodes in to season 01 and then abandoned it. I think I was beginning my "I'm fed up with superheroes" thing when that season came out.

Frankly, I'm still not fully out of that phase yet. But the Punisher isn't a superhero in the strictest sense of the word so I've been able to read some Garth Ennis comics.

And now, I'm coming back to the show. And I'm really enjoying it so far. My view has always been that there's not much you can do in terms of character development with Frank Castle. The guy's psychological profile is what it is. The franchise of the Punisher is him swooping in and blowing bad guys into the next life. The show seems to be largely working with that limitation. And it is a limitation, for sure.

Anyway, good show so far.

There are certain comic book runs that are sacred for some people. Lee/Romita on Spider-Man. Lee/Kirby on Fantastic Four. Frank Miller on Daredevil. Numerous others too. For a lot of fans, those runs are sacred.

And that's pretty much where I'm coming from with the Garth Ennis run on the Punisher. Particularly Punisher MAX. The Ennis stuff is sacred to me and I adore the concept of Castle as a Vietnam vet. That's the character's origin and I still think that's what works best. I'm guessing the showrunners cast the relatively young Jon Bernthal because they (understandably) thought their show would have a much longer life than it ultimately had. But knowing what we do, I think I would've appreciated it more if they'd cast someone old enough to have believably served in Vietnam.

An older, more experienced, more gristled Castle like we saw in Punisher MAX would've been right in my wheelhouse. I like Bernthal okay in the role. Easily he's the best there's ever been in live action (which is saying a lot). I just think that things could've been better, that's all. It's unlikely that we'll ever see a MAX-style Punisher in the MCU since everything in the MCU needs to be a Care Bears movie or a comedy or something. But there's always hope, I guess.

Finished season 01.

Honestly... eh. The writers tried way too hard to "humanize" Castle. But that's pointless. He's a killing machine. I think too much humanization dilutes the purity of what the Punisher is supposed to represent.

The season started off strong but I found myself disagreeing with the creative decisions more and more with each passing episode. Great stunts/fights, but man, that writing missed the boat a few times too many.

A general thing, I will say that the Netflix show does solve for one of my major gripes with the Punisher. Specifically, there are no other costumed characters running around. Yeah yeah yeah, Daredevil season 02. But aside from that, the stories feature Castle as basically a solo act.

Now yes, there's too much crying in one's beer going on in Netflix's Punisher for my tastes. But I can still give the show credit for mostly keeping Castle off in his own little corner of the Netflixverse. I've come to understand that one big gripe I have with the 616 Punisher is that he doesn't rly make sense in a shared universe. I might say the same for the X-Men, tbh. But in a universe where you've got Ghost Rider, Wolverine, Blade and other hardasses running around, what makes the Punisher so objectionable? I mean, is anybody srsly going to look me in the eye and claim that the Punisher is somehow more dangerous than Hulk?

What, it's okay for Captain America to take life but not the Punisher? Cap would, y'know. Soldier and all that. So is it okay for the Punisher to be who he is if he operates under SHIELD's auspices? Or, it's cool if Blade kills cuz, hey, they're vampires. But the Punisher is a big meanie even tho he kills non-vampires?

Maybe I'm overthinking it. I'm guilty of that sometimes. But if you ask me, putting the Punisher in a shared universe just plain raises too many stupid ethical debates.

Rosario Dawson has revealed that Punisher is coming back, and it seems Jon Bernthal will return. Dawson's role as Claire Temple might be making a comeback too.

https://youtu.be/wNBlGdvgNJI

I still haven't finished S2. I think I got about 4ep in, and I never finished. That was years ago.

The best Punisher season we got was Daredevil S2. lol

Dawson has backtracked her previous comments, but the cat's out of the bag, I reckon. The MCU better not goof him up too much.

Quote from: Travesty on Mon,  8 Aug  2022, 14:14
The best Punisher season we got was Daredevil S2. lol

I agree, Punisher's appearances in Daredevil Season Two were brilliant. I'd go far and say he saved the weakest season of the entire Daredevil Netflix show The moral debate he had with Matt on the rooftop and overall conflict was a highlight of that season.

His solo show wasn't too bad, first season was better than the second. But nothing had the same impact as Frank Castle's debut in Daredevil.