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Latino Review is claiming the MCU's TV equivalent of The Avengers will commence filming in late summer of this year:

QuoteWell, we've known for a while that it would be at the tail end of this year, but thanks to one of our sources, we now know that Marvel is looking at this fall -- more specifically a late August-October window -- to bring together all four street-level superheroes. Of course, while Marvel is looking at THE DEFENDERS as a culmination, that by no means means the stories will stop there. Following that series, they're looking to produce a second season of JESSICA JONES, and a third season of DAREDEVIL.

http://www.latino-review.com/news/rumor-when-marvels-the-defenders-will-be-shooting

This gels with something Charlie Cox said at a French press event a few days ago:

Quote"What we do know is at the end of this year we're going to be making The Defenders and, of course, Daredevil is very much a part of that foursome."

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2016/04/11/daredevils-charlie-cox-announces-the-defenders-filming-date/

Filming is well underway on Luke Cage, but they've yet to roll cameras on the first season of Iron Fist. It takes approximately 5½ months to shoot one of these 13 episode Netflix shows. They'll have to start work on Iron Fist very soon if Finn Jones is to be available in time for August.

So the good news is we should definitely be getting The Defenders in early-mid 2017.

The bad news is we probably won't be getting Daredevil season 3 until 2018. :(

The confirmed line-up for The Defenders includes Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage and Iron Fist. It's possible Hellcat, the Punisher and Misty Knight will show up too. Based on the ending of Daredevil season 2, I'm guessing SPOILERS the Hand will resurrect Elektra in such a way that fulfils her evil potential as a 'Black Sky', and together they'll be the main villains END SPOILERS. It's looking more and more likely the plot will be based on Shadowland.

Looks awesome. I seriously doubt we'll ever see something like the New Avengers in a movie (branding challenges, if nothing else) so taking the basic New Avengers concept and calling it "the Defenders" make as much sense as anything else.

So on that basis, I'm really looking forward to this bad boy. Sounds awesome!

No official release date yet, but it seems likely it'll be out sometime in the summer. Here's a roundup of pics, both official and unofficial, including a glimpse of Sigourney Weaver as the villain.


To coincide with the release of the series, Marvel's launching a new Defenders comic written by Brian Michael Bendis. And this one will feature the same line-up of heroes as the TV show. I know everyone seems to hate Bendis at present on account of his more recent work (New Avengers, Civil War II, etc). But since I haven't read any of the offending issues, and since I consider his Daredevil Vol 2 run to be the second best in the character's history (narrowly edged out by Miller), I'll certainly be collecting this new title.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  4 Feb  2017, 23:42Marvel's launching a new Defenders comic

Awesome! Can't wait!

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  4 Feb  2017, 23:42written by Brian Michael Bendis.

Nevermind.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  4 Feb  2017, 23:42I know everyone seems to hate Bendis at present on account of his more recent work

Honestly, that really isn't my reason for it. I rather enjoy his older stuff. I was a relative defender of him and his work... until he turned the Marvel Universe into the f**king United Nations because muh equality and muh diversity. After that, F him.

F him indeed.

A new teaser's been released:


Notice the numbers in the top right stop at 08:18:20:17. Or put another way: 8/18/2017.

Also note the numbers in the top left: 23.253.120.81. Enter those into the address bar on your browser and it takes you to a New York Bulletin viral site. Text at the bottom of the page confirms The Defenders release date:

QuoteWatch "Marvel's The Defenders" All Episodes Streaming Only on Netflix August 18 | © 2017 MARVEL & ABC Studios

I'm far more hyped for this miniseries than any CBM of 2017. Roll on August 18th.

I'm still working my way through Iron Fist. I love these Netflix shows. Luke Cage bored me to tears so I never finished it. But the others are all awesome. The Defenders looks like it'll be a ton of fun too. I like the idea of doing a companion (or alternative) to the MCU so the Netflix shows are perfect for me.

First pictures of Daredevil in costume on the set of The Defenders!

New poster art by Joe Quesada:

First full trailer:

A few thoughts.

The scene where Matt interrupts Jess' interrogation is taken straight from Alias Vol 1 #3 (January 2002).



As most of us anticipated, this looks like a loose adaptation of Shadowland. The way Elektra smacked Matt through that window suggests she's well on her way to becoming the Beast/Black Sky and will be filling the role Daredevil himself played in the original comic. Meanwhile Stick appears to be filling Master Izo's role.

In one scene Matt is wearing the Daredevil costume minus the mask. Has he removed the mask in an attempt to reach Elektra and reason with her? Or is something else happening here?


The moment where the Defenders are blasted through the air evokes this panel from Shadowland:



And of course it wouldn't be a Marvel Netflix show without a corridor fight.


Notice Elektra walking menacingly towards them in the background of this shot. Are they actually running away from her? If so, has she already become Black Sky by this point?

I loved Daredevil and Punisher's costumes in DD season 2, but I wasn't mad on Elektra's. It was ok, but I felt they should have inverted the colours so the red areas were black and the black areas red. It looks like they've done that here. Her new costume is closer to her classic look from the comics.


That's a major improvement. All she needs now is the headscarf and the costume will be perfect.

A few other things I liked in the trailer:

•   Sigourney Weaver! I've always thought of her as being the female Harrison Ford in terms of cult status, so it's a major bonus to have her play the villain.
•   I love the shot of Matt (I think) leaping off the rooftop with the cloudy night sky in the background.
•   Iron Fist and Luke Cage fighting in the alley.

The shot of Danny punching Luke is a nice throwback to LC s1:


Overall, a decent first trailer. Not as impressive as the DD s1 & 2 or JJ s1 trailers, but a good start. I bet the Punisher will appear at some point, but if that's the case they'll likely keep him under wraps until nearer the release date.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Wed,  3 May  2017, 16:32As most of us anticipated, this looks like a loose adaptation of Shadowland.

I must have missed that. Still, good to know I wasn't the only one thinking in that direction.

Me, I rather enjoy Shadowland. But it seems like most people don't so I'm not sure whose brilliant idea it was to adapt that story.

Shadowland is (or could be) a pretty convenient segue into a Born Again type of thing though.

There are a lot of options in the aftermath of a Shadowland adaptation. And that's just from comics. I assume these writers have their own ideas too.

I'll say it. I'm a lot more excited about the Netflixverse than I am about the big screen MCU.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  3 May  2017, 23:16I must have missed that. Still, good to know I wasn't the only one thinking in that direction.

The majority of online conjecture pointed to a Shadowland adaptation back when the Marvel Netflix deal was first announced in 2013. Fans were speculating about it on SuperHeroHype, ComicVine, IGN and the IMDb long before DD s1 even aired. The Black Sky mystery merely added fuel to the theory. This trailer – showing the resurrected Elektra fighting alongside the Hand against the Defenders – practically confirms it.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  3 May  2017, 23:16
Me, I rather enjoy Shadowland. But it seems like most people don't so I'm not sure whose brilliant idea it was to adapt that story.

I liked the main 5-issue Shadowland story. And I liked the build-up that preceded it during Andy Diggle's Daredevil run. But I didn't like all of the peripheral titles Marvel released to tie-in with the main event. Almost every character was given their own Shadowland miniseries or one-shot, and most of them were entirely nonessential to the overall plot. I think that's where a lot of the disdain for the 'event' as a whole stems from. Too many unnecessary tie-ins. I imagine a lot of fans also dislike Shadowland because it's seen as the culmination of Diggle's Daredevil run, which itself is perceived as a letdown; one that broke the decade-long winning streak that started with Guardian Devil and continued through to the end of Brubaker's run.

That said, I've not heard anyone complain about Marvel using Shadowland as the basis for The Defenders TV show. So it can't be that unpopular. I suppose the TV version has the potential to improve on the original comic in a number of interesting ways.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  3 May  2017, 23:16I'll say it. I'm a lot more excited about the Netflixverse than I am about the big screen MCU.

I'm more excited about the upcoming Netflix MCU content than I am about any theatrical superhero films, Marvel or DC. I'm fatigued with superhero movies in general (I'm hoping that fatigue will wear off before too long) and I've no interest in the teen-oriented content DC's churning out on the CW. For me, the comics will always come first. But Netflix is where it's at as far as live action superheroes are concerned.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  4 May  2017, 16:53The majority of online conjecture pointed to a Shadowland adaptation back when the Marvel Netflix deal was first announced in 2013.

*sigh*

This is one of those times when being disconnected from wider fandom works against me. Eh, whatevs. At least I know I'm not crazy for wondering about it. Or if I am, a ton of other people are crazy too so there's that.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  4 May  2017, 16:53I liked the main 5-issue Shadowland story. And I liked the build-up that preceded it during Andy Diggle's Daredevil run. But I didn't like all of the peripheral titles Marvel released to tie-in with the main event. Almost every character was given their own Shadowland miniseries or one-shot, and most of them were entirely nonessential to the overall plot. I think that's where a lot of the disdain for the 'event' as a whole stems from. Too many unnecessary tie-ins.

See, that's one thing I really dig about Shadowland. The main story is in the main limited series. But Shadowland didn't happen in a vacuum so those one-shots and tie-in limited series show other characters reacting to Shadowland without derailing the main limited series or detracting from those characters' ongoing titles (if they even had one). It's interesting for fans of those characters but it's not essential reading.

It's something that Marvel did really well back in those days. Honestly, the same criticism could be leveled at Civil War, Siege, House of M (I think) and others. Not trying to argue the point. Just saying...

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  4 May  2017, 16:53I imagine a lot of fans also dislike Shadowland because it's seen as the culmination of Diggle's Daredevil run, which itself is perceived as a letdown; one that broke the decade-long winning streak that started with Guardian Devil and continued through to the end of Brubaker's run.

That I can see. Diggle's run doesn't quite measure up to what came before, that's for sure. But the way I see it, Diggle's work is solid on its own merits. And if it isn't quite as consistently engaging as Bendis or Brubaker... well, you can't have everything. If the Bendis and Brubaker runs were solid 10's (and I'd argue to the death that they were), Diggle is at a solid 7.5 or maybe even an 8. Not bad!

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Thu,  4 May  2017, 16:53I suppose the TV version has the potential to improve on the original comic in a number of interesting ways.

Agreed. Getting possessed by the Beast of the Hand was pretty much Matt hitting rock bottom after everything that had happened to him in the Smith, Bendis and Brubaker runs. I don't think I need to see that angle in Defenders. I'm not opposed to it if it's done well. But it seems like too much for Matt as we've seen him so far in the Netflixverse.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  3 May  2017, 23:16I'm more excited about the upcoming Netflix MCU content than I am about any theatrical superhero films, Marvel or DC. I'm fatigued with superhero movies in general (I'm hoping that fatigue will wear off before too long) and I've no interest in the teen-oriented content DC's churning out on the CW. For me, the comics will always come first. But Netflix is where it's at as far as live action superheroes are concerned.

Yeah, the CW Arrowverse is a mixed bag. The only one I'm head-over-heels in love with is the Flash. The rest... well, I can take or leave them in the best of cases. In the worst cases, thanks but no thanks. You know?

I think the presence of the Rosario Dawson character will help these ones come together quicker than the avengers.

One thing these  series help bring back was the classic hero vs. villain stories. It seems the current clichee is to let the hero have one solo outing and then start giving him sidekicks. I think that's what made Doctor Strange refreshing, this was the first MCU film since Cap 1 and Thor 1 in which they let the star actor carry his film without shoehorning other characters in. On the DC side team arrow and team flash started building after the first seasons and with respect to the DCEU, they seem to be rushing in so heavily I don't know if they'll have the patience to churn out many films with only one hero. I guess the Bale Batman and Garfield Spider-man series kind of did but of those five films the only one with only one villain was the first Amazing Spider-man.

It's weird I've felt that Robin has been criminally under-portrayed on film in comparison to how often he was next to Batman in the comics and was angry the Nolan series basically ignored the character but at this point I wouldn't be hyped to find out Robin or Nightwing would be joining Batman because of all the sidekicks in the other films and series.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  4 May  2017, 20:37See, that's one thing I really dig about Shadowland. The main story is in the main limited series. But Shadowland didn't happen in a vacuum so those one-shots and tie-in limited series show other characters reacting to Shadowland without derailing the main limited series or detracting from those characters' ongoing titles (if they even had one). It's interesting for fans of those characters but it's not essential reading.

It's something that Marvel did really well back in those days. Honestly, the same criticism could be leveled at Civil War, Siege, House of M (I think) and others. Not trying to argue the point. Just saying...

I admit it's nice to see a big event storyline in which Daredevil plays a central role, and where his actions actually have an impact on the lives of other superheroes. Usually he's just a supporting player in such plots. Or worse yet, a cameo.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  4 May  2017, 20:37That I can see. Diggle's run doesn't quite measure up to what came before, that's for sure. But the way I see it, Diggle's work is solid on its own merits. And if it isn't quite as consistently engaging as Bendis or Brubaker... well, you can't have everything. If the Bendis and Brubaker runs were solid 10's (and I'd argue to the death that they were), Diggle is at a solid 7.5 or maybe even an 8. Not bad!

In fairness to Diggle, the trajectory of his run was largely dictated by Brubaker. There used to be a tradition that an outgoing Daredevil writer would try and snooker his successor by leaving the character in a really awkward position. So while Bendis ended his run with Matt in jail, Brubaker ended his with Matt assuming control of the Hand. Diggle had no choice but to continue that storyline and make the best he could of it. Overall, I consider his run to be average. I don't mean that in a bad way. An average Daredevil run is still superior to 90% of most other comics. But like you say, after the excellence of Bendis and Brubaker, anything average was bound to seem like a disappointment.

There are a couple of other reasons I've heard people cite for hating Diggle's run. Some don't like the fact he brought back Snakeroot, the secret council at the heart of the Hand. Snakeroot are generally synonymous with Dan Chichester's run, which is reason enough for some fans to dislike them. They don't bother me personally, and I thought Diggle did a good job of updating them for modern readers.

A lot of fans also weren't happy with the fact Daredevil killed Bullseye in Shadowland. This would be a problem for me under normal circumstances, but I just assumed Matt was succumbing to the influence of the Beast when he did this. He wouldn't have done it if he hadn't already been corrupted, or if he was in complete control of his actions. At least that's my interpretation.

'The Devil's Hand' was a fun storyline. Nothing groundbreaking, but a decent continuation of Brubaker's ninja arc. And while I don't think Shadowland is a great story, I do think it's better than its reputation would suggest. Daredevil: Reborn is solid, though is owes a lot to Ann Nocenti's 'Lone Stranger' arc. So while I wouldn't rate Diggle as one of the best Daredevil writers, I certainly wouldn't rate him as the worst. He gave us an enjoyable run and I appreciate it for what it is.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Thu,  4 May  2017, 20:37Agreed. Getting possessed by the Beast of the Hand was pretty much Matt hitting rock bottom after everything that had happened to him in the Smith, Bendis and Brubaker runs. I don't think I need to see that angle in Defenders. I'm not opposed to it if it's done well. But it seems like too much for Matt as we've seen him so far in the Netflixverse.

Right. Daredevil Vol 2 was basically one decade-long emotional breakdown leading up to Shadowland. Matt's had several such breakdowns in the comics over the years, but he's not yet had one in the TV show. And when he does, I'd rather it took the form of a Born Again adaptation. So I'm cool with them having Elektra be the one who gets possessed.

I would've replied sooner but I didn't want to Bogart this thread any more than I already have. But now that probably everybody else has had a chance to reply...

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  6 May  2017, 17:46I admit it's nice to see a big event storyline in which Daredevil plays a central role, and where his actions actually have an impact on the lives of other superheroes. Usually he's just a supporting player in such plots. Or worse yet, a cameo.

Bingo. And the thing is I enjoy Shadowland for that exact reason. Even during the early 2000's, after the Smith "run", Daredevil had a lot of respect but he wasn't the rock star back then that he's become now. I seriously doubt Marvel would've gambled on Shadowland back in 2003. So for that alone, sheer bragging rights, I sort of have to give Shadowland an easy pass on a lot of things.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  6 May  2017, 17:46In fairness to Diggle, the trajectory of his run was largely dictated by Brubaker. There used to be a tradition that an outgoing Daredevil writer would try and snooker his successor by leaving the character in a really awkward position. So while Bendis ended his run with Matt in jail, Brubaker ended his with Matt assuming control of the Hand. Diggle had no choice but to continue that storyline and make the best he could of it. Overall, I consider his run to be average. I don't mean that in a bad way. An average Daredevil run is still superior to 90% of most other comics. But like you say, after the excellence of Bendis and Brubaker, anything average was bound to seem like a disappointment.

True. But I got the idea that Diggle wasn't too interested in breaking away from where Bendis and Brubaker had taken Daredevil.

On top of that, all it really takes is between 6 and 12 months to get a character to a place where you want him. Diggle had that much time to spare and could've told a different story if it was his deepest desire to do so.

Maybe I'm not giving somebody in the process enough credit (or maybe I'm giving too much) but I don't see where changing directions after Brubaker would've been impossible for whoever replaced Brubaker if they'd wanted to do that.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  6 May  2017, 17:46A lot of fans also weren't happy with the fact Daredevil killed Bullseye in Shadowland. This would be a problem for me under normal circumstances, but I just assumed Matt was succumbing to the influence of the Beast when he did this. He wouldn't have done it if he hadn't already been corrupted, or if he was in complete control of his actions. At least that's my interpretation.

I agree.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat,  6 May  2017, 17:46'The Devil's Hand' was a fun storyline. Nothing groundbreaking, but a decent continuation of Brubaker's ninja arc. And while I don't think Shadowland is a great story, I do think it's better than its reputation would suggest. Daredevil: Reborn is solid, though is owes a lot to Ann Nocenti's 'Lone Stranger' arc. So while I wouldn't rate Diggle as one of the best Daredevil writers, I certainly wouldn't rate him as the worst. He gave us an enjoyable run and I appreciate it for what it is.

Nocenti's run is a pretty big blind spot for me, tbh.

But what I enjoy about Reborn is that semi-Adlard style the artist had (which works great for Daredevil) and the fact that Murdock learns (or is reminded) that his life is difficult, sure, but he can help people in very direct and very intimate ways that maybe other Marvel characters can't. The Avengers were never going to liberate that town from the villain (whose name escapes me). But they're free now because of Matt and nobody else. He walks a special path. It's kind of like the famous speech from Rocky Balboa about moving forward.

I sympathize with Murdock for wanting to quit, especially after what he'd been through. But his dad didn't raise him to give up and I buy that he'd go back to New York.

It bugs the hell out of me when people dismiss Reborn as a retread of Born Again. Apart from the similar titles, they really don't have very much to do with each other.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon,  8 May  2017, 00:13Nocenti's run is a pretty big blind spot for me, tbh.

I've got a soft spot for Nocenti's era. The very first Daredevil comic I ever bought as a child was this one:


This may also account for Bullseye being my favourite Daredevil villain. That issue came right at the end of Nocenti's run, and I didn't get to read her earlier stories until many years later. She's generally held in high regard by Daredevil fans and I rate her highly myself. Nocenti had the unenviable task of following Born Again, but she did a surprisingly great job of bridging the gap between Miller and Chichester. Her take on the material is deeply idiosyncratic (and at times downright weird) and places its emphasis on the more spiritual, compassionate side of Matt's character. I'd definitely rank her amongst my top ten Daredevil writers, perhaps even amongst my top five. There is however one major oft-cited drawback to her run that's impossible to ignore: the politics.

Nocenti had a habit of injecting her own liberal viewpoints into many of her stories. I don't really have a problem with this, as long as the views being expressed are consistent with Matt's own ideology and as long as they're not too heavy-handed. A story about the evils of pollution? Ok, I can live with that. A story about the plight of the homeless? That's a noble cause and one that's close to Matt's heart, so I've no problem with that either. A story about domestic violence? Fine. A story about the cruelty of battery farms? Ok. But just check out this scene from 'Vital Signs' (Daredevil Vol 1 #260, November 1988).


I know it's done in a humorous way, but even so. When you hear the voice of the writer speaking to you instead of the voice of the character, that's when the agenda has become too heavy-handed. But it's not a major problem for me and DD #260 is actually a really great issue. As long as you can overlook the heavy-handed politics, Nocenti's run in general is ace.

The original Typhoid Mary storyline is one of my favourite Daredevil arcs, and Typhoid herself is my second favourite villain after Bullseye. The aftermath of this story saw Matt leaving New York and becoming a drifter during the 'Lone Stranger' arc (if you like Reborn, you'll probably dig this too). He wandered through various small towns helping ordinary folk, all the while being haunted and tested by Mephisto. This saga includes the classic Spider-Man crossover from Daredevil Vol 1 #270 (September 1989) that introduced Mephisto's son, Blackheart. It ultimately leads into a storyline where Daredevil and his companions literally descend into the depths of Hell to confront Mephisto. It's a weird run, but I love it.

Unfortunately Nocenti's Daredevil stories are quite difficult to come by these days. However Marvel released an Epic Collection last year called 'A Touch of Typhoid' which includes the whole Typhoid Mary storyline as well as the beginning of the Lone Stranger arc. It ends with Daredevil Vol 1 #270. The good news is they're releasing another Epic Collection this coming September called 'Heart of Darkness' which picks up at #271 and includes the rest of the Long Stranger arc as well as the descent into Hell storyline. So if you get these two volumes, you'll have the majority of Nocenti's most memorable Daredevil stories.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon,  8 May  2017, 00:13It bugs the hell out of me when people dismiss Reborn as a retread of Born Again. Apart from the similar titles, they really don't have very much to do with each other.

I do see strong similarities between Reborn and Lone Stranger, but not between Reborn and Born Again. Perhaps the people making those comparisons haven't read many DD comics.

Another clue points to the Punisher making an appearance:

QuoteIn an email sent to members of the press attending Comic-Con International Marvel and Netflix revealed the panel participants for the Defenders panel that is taking place on Friday the 21st.

Panel Participants: Mike Colter, Finn Jones, Charlie Cox, Krysten Ritter, Elodie Yung, Deborah Ann Woll, Jessica Henwick, Marco Ramirez, Jon Bernthal and Jeph Loeb.

Bernthal is on the list to be on the panel. Now, this could mean that he's there to promote his solo series but there haven't been any hints about that and he's the only member of that cast on the list aside from Deborah Ann Woll. The panel is specifically listed as a Defenders panel and while they showed footage from other series at the Luke Cage panel last year there weren't any members of those casts present.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07/12/rumor-marvelnetflix-just-confirm-punisher-defenders/

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 12 May  2017, 16:57I do see strong similarities between Reborn and Lone Stranger, but not between Reborn and Born Again. Perhaps the people making those comparisons haven't read many DD comics.

I think people tend to get tripped up the somewhat similar names and the basic idea of Murdock not being Daredevil for a while and then becoming Daredevil again. If that's as far into the analysis as someone gets, yeah, I guess I can see how they seem fairly similar to one another.

But in the real world, no. As you say, they're nothing alike.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 12 May  2017, 16:57

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon,  8 May  2017, 00:13Nocenti's run is a pretty big blind spot for me, tbh.

I've got a soft spot for Nocenti's era. The very first Daredevil comic I ever bought as a child was this one:

(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/c/c9/Daredevil_Vol_1_290.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080810201545)

This may also acseye being my favourite Daredevil villain. That issue came right at the end of Nocenti's run, and I didn't get to read her earlier stories until many years later. She's generally held in high regard by Daredevil fans and I rate her highly myself. Nocenti had the unenviable task of following Born Again, but she did a surprisingly great job of bridging the gap between Miller and Chichester. Her take on the material is deeply idiosyncratic (and at times downright weird) and places its emphasis on the more spiritual, compassionate side of Matt's character. I'd definitely rank her amongst my top ten Daredevil writers, perhaps even amongst my top five. There is however one major oft-cited drawback to her run that's impossible to ignore: the politics.

Nocenti had a habit of injecting her own liberal viewpoints into many of her stories. I don't really have a problem with this, as long as the views being expressed are consistent with Matt's own ideology and as long as they're not too heavy-handed. A story about the evils of pollution? Ok, I can live with that. A story about the plight of the homeless? That's a noble cause and one that's close to Matt's heart, so I've no problem with that either. A story about domestic violence? Fine. A story about the cruelty of battery farms? Ok. But just check out this scene from 'Vital Signs' (Daredevil Vol 1 #260, November 1988).

(https://s22.postimg.org/idrdhhhkx/no_nukes.png)

I too think Bullseye is the best Daredevil villain. The Kingpin is more of a behind the scenes villain and is also a Spidey villain. The punisher is more of an anti-hero. Bullseye vs. Daredevil is a perfect analogy for why sometimes in sports, teams just can not beat an inferior team no matter how many tries they get. Bullseye has dead accuracy, Daredevil is blind. Bullseye should be able to hit Daredevil with ease  but every time it comes down to it, Daredevil can successfully defend against Bullseye's biggest asset- his accuracy via his sonic senses while Bullseye despite eventually figuring out ways to exploit Daredevils enhanced senses against him, never does it enough to beat him. It also exemplifies why Daredevil can be such an underdog but come out on top.

Bullseye is despicably awesome. Besides his impressive skill set, everything else about him is beyond contempt.

His back story's pathetic. He killed his abusive dad, became a Major League baseball player, got bored during his first game and killed the batter, was recruited as a black ops agent for the NSA and eventually went rogue. That's it. No sympathetic tragedy. No long lost love. He's just a violent psychopath who likes hurting people. He killed Elektra, he killed Karen Page, and he almost killed Daredevil's mum. He also massacred an entire church full of nuns and once murdered a woman with a toothpick while she was holding her baby just to show off his skills to a potential client.


What a scumbag. In 'Bullseye!' (Daredevil Vol #290, March 1991) he goes on a crime wave disguised as Daredevil. And one of the newspaper reports mentions rape amongst his list of crimes.


I remember reading this issue as a kid and finding that detail really disturbing. I think it was the first time I saw a reference to rape in a comic book. And the idea of a costumed character doing it somehow made it worse.

At least the Joker's got stories like The Killing Joke and Going Sane to lend him some shred of humanity. But Bullseye? Forget it. To quote Henry Jones Senior, he's "the shlime [sic] of humanity". But that's why he's such a great villain. If you were to use Seth Brundle's gene splicer to fuse Joker and Deadshot into a single being, then raise the amalgamated creature in the sleaziest brothel in Basin City's Old Town, then the resultant individual would be Bullseye.


His skills are beyond equal and his purpose is singular. What gives the character depth is his relationship with Daredevil. Daredevil's the one guy who can own him so badly he literally begs for mercy and cries like a child. This only makes things worse, because then Bullseye spends his time incarcerated dwelling on that humiliation and training himself up to take revenge. It's a never-ending cycle. When Daredevil saved his life that time he had a brain tumour, that only increased Bullseye's hatred towards him further. You can't reason with Bullseye. You can't give him what he wants and expect him to spare your life. You can only hope Daredevil shows up and draws his fire before he pokes your head full of paperclips. Or paper planes. Or pencils. Or anything else he can get his hands on. He's an absolutely vile character, but a brilliant villain. It's a tall order to do him justice in the TV show, but if they pull it off like they did with Fisk then he might just be the best MCU villain ever.

New Comic-Con poster by Joshua James Shaw:


Looks like Danny's wearing some variation of his comic costume. Now he just needs his mask to complete the look. :)

The thing that works for me about Bullseye is how his sob story really isn't any worse than Daredevil's. Murdock was abandoned by his mother (and yeah, it's a bit more complicated than that but that's still the basic truth of it), his father was a very flawed man, he grew up in poverty, he lost his vision at a young age (while doing the right thing, no less!), he was tormented as a child by bullies who knew his handicap damn good and well, the whole program. Both men suffered a harsh upbringing.

But this is clearly an instance where nature wins out over nurture in both men's cases. Each of them had perfectly understandable reasons for being angry at the world. But only one of them rose above to contribute to society in obviously beneficial ways (in court) and in sometimes destructive ways (the horns and billy club). Realistically, Bullseye's trajectory didn't have to be any different than Daredevil's. He could've risen above too. He even had several opportunities to do so. But he went another way.

I don't think Bullseye would be as effective as he is if he was anybody else's rogue. The dynamic just wouldn't work as well with, say, Spider-Man or the Punisher or whoever else. There's a specific synergy which exists between Daredevil and Bullseye, and it isn't fungible. They're from the same place in a weird kind of way. Maybe different zip codes but still the same basic place.

Of all people, Murdock is uniquely qualified to have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for Bullseye. Spider-Man, for example, would probably give Bullseye some measure of pity that the man simply doesn't deserve. Daredevil is probably the only character in the Marvel universe who can "look" Bullseye in the eye and tell him where to stick it. There's probably nobody in the DC universe who can do it either. But Daredevil can. Because he's been there himself.

As to Kingpin being a Spidey villain... no. He may have made his debut appearances in Spider-Man comics but he's a Daredevil villain through and through. And honestly, for a lot of the same reasons as Bullseye. Kingpin and Murdock can relate to each other in ways that Spider-Man and Kingpin (or Spider-Man and Daredevil, for that matter) never could. Again, they're from the same place.

The hell of it is though, Kingpin truly can transcend. Bullseye is a murderer. He was born a murderer and he'll die a murderer. But Kingpin... well, that didn't have to be his story. Kingpin wallows in the muck ultimately because he has absolutely no conscience. But he's capable of succeeding and achieving in the business world. And he'd probably be just as rich that way. But the man simply doesn't have a conscience.

And to me, guys like Kingpin are the scariest in the whole world. Bullseye will kill you because he's just an evil SOB. What do you want to hear? It's what the guy is. But Fisk's absolute lack of morality scares the piss out of me. He's completely amoral. That's not the same as immoral. Because Fisk does do some legitimately honorable things at times. But he also does some incredibly evil stuff too and the only way of getting there is through an amorality so precise as to border on a bizarre kind of religious vow or something.

Fisk isn't "evil" in the usual sense of the word. He's absolutely amoral. He does good things and he does evil things. His abject lack of conscience is what's truly terrifying for me. Say what you want about Bullseye but you know where you stand with him. But with Fisk... I wouldn't even know where to start.

Both characters are great villains for Daredevil. And yes, they are Daredevil's villains.

Fisk could indeed pursue a legitimate path if he wanted to. We know this because we've seen him do it. He lived a law-abiding life with Vanessa in Japan before he even met Daredevil, and he lived peacefully in Spain with Marta and her kids during the Return of the King storyline. But he keeps choosing the path of crime. Because, as you quite rightly point out, he has no moral compass. Fisk is governed by emotion, not morality. Occasionally he might display a spectre of compassion. For example, the kindness he showed Marta and her children in Return of the King. But once again, this arises from emotion. What might be misconstrued as moral virtue on his part is in fact sentimentality. The fact he's capable of sentimentality elevates him above Bullseye, who's really far too singular for that sort of thing.

And you're correct about Bullseye only functioning in relation to Matt. I've read comics where Bullseye goes up against the Punisher or other heroes, and they're just not as compelling. Bullseye is Daredevil's shadow. I always dig the visual symmetry between the two of them. With Daredevil and Kingpin, there's this whole David and Goliath dynamic where they're clearly mismatched on a physical level. But Daredevil and Bullseye are of similar height and build, and even their costumes look alike. If you look at that cover I posted earlier in the thread, that's actually Matt wearing Bullseye's costume as he beats the living daylights out of Poindexter/Lester/Leonard/whatever-the-hell-his-real-name-is. But you can't really tell, because physically they're so well balanced.


Both are capable of superhuman precision, both are experts in hand-to-hand combat. They're not 100% evenly matched, because Daredevil's better. But Bullseye's good enough to be a persistent pain in Matt's side. Kingpin is traditionally thought of as a mastermind-class villain, though he's obviously capable of being a soldier-class adversary whenever he and Daredevil trade blows. Bullseye, on the other hand, is the epitome of the soldier-class rank. He's not an idiot, but he's nowhere near Fisk's level of Machiavellian cunning. As far as I'm concerned, Kingpin and Bullseye both have an equally strong claim to being Matt's nemesis.

Speaking of Fisk, I've just seen this piece of concept art from the upcoming Spider-Man videogame. It looks like the game's version of Kingpin is visually modelled on D'Onofrio's incarnation.


Are we ever going to get a Daredevil game?

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 15 Jul  2017, 23:26Both are capable of superhuman precision, both are experts in hand-to-hand combat. They're not 100% evenly matched, because Daredevil's better. But Bullseye's good enough to be a persistent pain in Matt's side. Kingpin is traditionally thought of as a mastermind-class villain, though he's obviously capable of being a soldier-class adversary whenever he and Daredevil trade blows. Bullseye, on the other hand, is the epitome of the soldier-class rank. He's not an idiot, but he's nowhere near Fisk's level of Machiavellian cunning. As far as I'm concerned, Kingpin and Bullseye both have an equally strong claim to being Matt's nemesis.

People talk a lot of smack about Batman's rogues gallery being fun-house mirrors of him. But honestly, the whole "duality" thing can get a bit tiresome.

What plays for me with Daredevil's major rivals is how they both challenge Matt on moral levels. Yeah, there's the physical challenge they both present. That's obvious. But those two characters are, to Matt's worldview, vulgar. They're profane in the original sense of the word. Yeah, Fisk may or may not kick Daredevil's ass. But for as powerful as Fisk might be, what ultimately underlies Murdock's loathing for Fisk is the filth in which he willingly lives. Murdock's sense of self is so clearly defined that he knows (though without direct experience) that while he is intellectually capable of manufacturing that type of life for himself, he can't live it. And it sickens him that anybody ever could.

I think Murdock is sincerely disgusted by Fisk.

There's a sick-to-your-stomach outrage that Murdock experiences even seeing Fisk that I don't think any villain ever has or ever will bring out of Batman.

So I guess my point is that whatever Daredevil may lack in quantity of rogues he handily makes up for with quality.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 15 Jul  2017, 23:26Speaking of Fisk, I've just seen this piece of concept art from the upcoming Spider-Man videogame. It looks like the game's version of Kingpin is visually modelled on D'Onofrio's incarnation.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fassets1.ignimgs.com%2F2017%2F07%2F15%2F02-1500151620830_1280w.png&hash=49447b08364072b5b5ff4d89082d984e59073a2e)

Are we ever going to get a Daredevil game?

Some characters have a bizarre karma where they're destined to never get a decent video game. Superman is a good example of a character who has arguably never had a quality video game... even though I would've thought such a thing would be a no-brainer. A Daredevil video game could be amazing... but it could also be a trainwreck of mega proportions. And the line separating the two may be very thin indeed.

As I see it, there are two possible ways of approaching a Daredevil game. One would be to make a third-person action title similar to the Arkham series. Have a detailed free-roaming sandbox based on an accurately mapped Hell's Kitchen. Make it visually stylised to represent Matt's unique way of perceiving the world. The shapes would be accurate, but the colours would be wrong. You'd have to touch signs and documents in order to read what they say. Gameplay would alternate between exploration, combat and detective puzzle solving. You'd have the ability to focus one particular sense to track down a criminal. There'd be unlockable upgrades for your billy club and alternate costumes. There could perhaps even be courtroom scenes where you play as Matt Murdock.

If such a title was too expensive, they could always make a Matt Murdock: Ace Attorney game in the style of the Phoenix Wright series and release it for handheld systems and mobile devices. I was hoping Daredevil would be a playable character in the new Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite game so you could have him fight Phoenix Wright, but it looks like he's been left out. Again. The Charlie Cox Daredevil was playable in Marvel Contest of Champions, but that's hardly comparable to having his own Arkham-class game.


Part of the problem is Daredevil's never been very popular compared to other characters. Serious comic fans know how awesome he is, but only the cool kids read his stories. The smaller, exclusive nature of DD fandom is part of what makes him hip, but it also precludes more expensive peripherals such as videogames. The closest we ever got to a proper DD game was this:

I haven't watched the video game so what I'm about to say may have been intended for the cancelled game.

But I think whether or not an Arkham style approach is used or not, one neat feature would be toggling between "regular vision" (eg, POV type stuff) and "radar sense". Perhaps some entire levels would be fight in pitch darkness, requiring the use of the radar sense. Usage of this could be complicated by loud reverberating sounds which distort the radar.

The only real idea I had was a scenario where Daredevil has to infiltrate the Kingpin's compound. The objective would be to find some vital clue or something that reveals where the next piece of the tri-force is hidden without being seen. That seems more interesting to me than storming the castle, guns blazing. Daredevil is a ninja, after all, so why not have a sequence that depends upon him using his skills for infiltration, sneaking around and avoiding detection?

Mind you, I'm not a gamer so this stuff might be sort of lame. I wouldn't know.

I watched the video, from what I gathered 3000 feet was brutally managed and that was the games downfall. Another one is games they were using as inspiration at the time; mimicking Tony Hawk to have Daredevil slide along cables and stuff.. something he does do once in a while but not nearly enough to make it a main feature. Also why did they go so heavily into incorporating Grand theft auto? Just because it was a sandbox game?

It seems the video game went through a similar path as the movie; originally started out as a small project until the big companies swooped in, increased the budget, got their fingers in the pie and ruined the end product. A lot of fans including myself weren't happy that the theatrical release was downgraded from an R rating to PG but at least the intended version initially got released.


It doesn't seem like the game was incorporating Daredevils blindness. I like the idea of giving the player a hybrid vision; allow the character to see about 5-10 feet in front of him but once Daredevil gets close enough, the objects appear and remain visible as long as he stays in the room. Objects that make noise become visible immediately once Daredevil is allowed to hear him and things like sonic sounds and bells can distort his senses. I would incorporate the ability for Daredevil to throw hi bow staff at objects as a way of interacting with the enviroment.


I think superhero movies have evolved past having video game tie ins. The DCEU isn't doing it, the MCU stopped after Thor and Captain America (the former which was a disaster), I think the last one we had was the Amazing Spider-man 2; interesting because both those games took place after their respective movies as opposed to being based on them. Spider-man Homecoming is the first spidey movie that didn't get a video game tie in. Let's see how the upcoming spider-man game (independent from any movie properties) does, supposedly it is mimicking many elements from the Arkham games. The last time Marvel made an independent game for one of their characters was the deadpool game which was very well received partially because it was retrofitted for the character. We may be on our way if Spideys next game ends up successful.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Mon, 17 Jul  2017, 03:18
But I think whether or not an Arkham style approach is used or not, one neat feature would be toggling between "regular vision" (eg, POV type stuff) and "radar sense". Perhaps some entire levels would be fight in pitch darkness, requiring the use of the radar sense. Usage of this could be complicated by loud reverberating sounds which distort the radar.

The only real idea I had was a scenario where Daredevil has to infiltrate the Kingpin's compound. The objective would be to find some vital clue or something that reveals where the next piece of the tri-force is hidden without being seen. That seems more interesting to me than storming the castle, guns blazing. Daredevil is a ninja, after all, so why not have a sequence that depends upon him using his skills for infiltration, sneaking around and avoiding detection?

Mind you, I'm not a gamer so this stuff might be sort of lame. I wouldn't know.

That's not lame at all. Those are great ideas. Stealth mechanics are a must for a Daredevil game, and infiltrating the Fisk Tower would make for an excellent final stage. With Matt's radar sense, you'd be able to enter a building and know exactly where everyone was. This would make it easy to figure out patrol routes and avoid detection. The idea of using darkness to your advantage is also a great suggestion. Strategically taking out the lights with your billy club would lower the bad guys' fighting efficiency. But as the enemies get tougher towards the end of the game, they start wearing night vision goggles to compensate. The player could also use Matt's grapple line and gymnastic skills to scale the outside of the building whenever the interior pathways become impassable.

I think a Daredevil game would need to follow the Metroid tradition of having the main character lose most of their weapons/skills right at the beginning, then gradually reacquire them as they progress to new areas. The player could start off with all of Matt's sensory powers during the opening tutorial. Then an explosion or blow to the head throws your senses out of whack and leaves you with just echolocation and a basic billy club. Shortly afterwards you get back your radar and upgrade the billy club to include the grapple line. Next you regain your sense of smell and acquire the billy club nunchuk function. And so on and so forth, until eventually you've regained all your skills and weapons in time for the showdown with Kingpin.

Quote from: riddler on Mon, 17 Jul  2017, 15:37
It doesn't seem like the game was incorporating Daredevils blindness. I like the idea of giving the player a hybrid vision; allow the character to see about 5-10 feet in front of him but once Daredevil gets close enough, the objects appear and remain visible as long as he stays in the room. Objects that make noise become visible immediately once Daredevil is allowed to hear him and things like sonic sounds and bells can distort his senses. I would incorporate the ability for Daredevil to throw hi bow staff at objects as a way of interacting with the enviroment.

Weather effects could create challenging complications too. For example, extreme cold could enhance Matt's ability to detect heat signatures, but could weaken his sense of touch. One major error in the 2003 movie was that they showed rain amplifying Matt's ability to perceive his environment. In the comics rain has the opposite effect – it confuses Matt's radar, limits the range of his perception and makes it harder for him to react to things.


In the movie he uses the sprinkler system in Fisk's office to give himself an advantage. In Daredevil Vol 3 #25 (June 2013), Matt was almost killed fighting Ikari when the sprinkler system in a shop rendered half his senses unusable.


Rain and other weather effects could have a similar impact in the game.

I'm debating among myself whether I think rain should help or hinder him. The sound of raindrops hitting objects could help his sense of sound since he could tell where the raindrops are hitting things other than the ground but it may be distracting. His sense of smell should definitely be warped and maybe even his sense of touch if he's all wet.

It doesn't seem like the game did this but the movie does as does the show and comics; when loud noises distort his senses, he hits things with his stick to get his bearings back. This could be a strategy in the game, using your stick to hit stationary objects for the purpose of investigating surroundings.

I'll reserve judgment until I see the episodes... but some of the bickering in trailer #2 seems a little forced.

Daredevil season 1 trailer:


Daredevil season 2 trailer:


The Defenders season 1 trailer:


The entire first episode was shown at Comic-Con and a number of sites have posted descriptions. One interesting detail (SPOILERS for the opening scene of the first episode):  apparently the first episode begins with a flash-forward sequence where Jessica and Iron Fist are fighting their way through a tunnel to rescue the Punisher. It looks like Frank will be a member of the Defenders after all. (END SPOILERS)

Less than four weeks to go. Bring it.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sat, 22 Jul  2017, 11:18
I'll reserve judgment until I see the episodes... but some of the bickering in trailer #2 seems a little forced.

I expect it will be more organic when seen in context. That sort of ribbing/banter is common amongst these guys in the comics. As long as it doesn't dilute the intensity of the action scenes, I'm cool with it.


Although I'm generally a little burned out with the whole hero vs. hero thing, I am stoked to see Matt fight Danny. I get tired of people saying Iron Fist would stomp Daredevil, even though every time they've fought in the comics they've either stalemated or else Matt has got the upper hand. Judging from this trailer, it looks like Matt can hold his own against Danny. Which is how it should be.

Reviews of the first four episodes have been cropping up online. They're mostly positive, though many have been critical of the pacing.

Meanwhile a couple of new clips have been released.



And here are some Comic-Con interviews for anyone who's interested.

One week to go. ;D I think I'll reread Shadowland.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 11 Aug  2017, 22:12One week to go. ;D I think I'll reread Shadowland.

Good idea!

I'm so up for this series, bro. You can't even guess.

Same here. I'm insanely stoked for this. It's easily my most hyped CB adaptation of 2017. Are you going to binge watch it or try to pace yourself, colors? I can usually pace myself with Netflix shows, but when it comes to Daredevil I have to binge the entire thing as quickly as possible. I'll re-watch it at a more measured pace afterwards.

I'm wondering if Matt's going to be revealed as a Black Sky. Maybe he's the one the Hand is really after and they're only using Elektra to draw him in.

Will this series mark the end of the Hand in the MCU? They've been a major factor in the Netflix shows since DD season 1, but I can't see where else the writers can go with them once this storyline's concluded. And if they are wiped out, what will replace them as the big bad in the next batch of Marvel shows?

Will the Comic-Con Punisher footage be included after the final episode, the same way the Luke Cage preview footage was included at the end of DD s2?

Who is the mysterious Alexandra? It's been said she's an original creation, but will she be revealed as a character from the comics? A human avatar for Mephisto, perhaps?

Will there be any hints about DD season 3? Maybe a Fisk cameo or a Bullseye Easter egg?

Six days to go! The wait's killing me.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 12 Aug  2017, 22:13Same here. I'm insanely stoked for this. It's easily my most hyped CB adaptation of 2017. Are you going to binge watch it or try to pace yourself, colors? I can usually pace myself with Netflix shows, but when it comes to Daredevil I have to binge the entire thing as quickly as possible. I'll re-watch it at a more measured pace afterwards.

I'm wondering if Matt's going to be revealed as a Black Sky. Maybe he's the one the Hand is really after and they're only using Elektra to draw him in.

Will this series mark the end of the Hand in the MCU? They've been a major factor in the Netflix shows since DD season 1, but I can't see where else the writers can go with them once this storyline's concluded. And if they are wiped out, what will replace them as the big bad in the next batch of Marvel shows?

Will the Comic-Con Punisher footage be included after the final episode, the same way the Luke Cage preview footage was included at the end of DD s2?

Who is the mysterious Alexandra? It's been said she's an original creation, but will she be revealed as a character from the comics? A human avatar for Mephisto, perhaps?

Will there be any hints about DD season 3? Maybe a Fisk cameo or a Bullseye Easter egg?

Six days to go! The wait's killing me.

My ability to binge watch depends upon my girlfriend since we watch these Netflix shows together. But next weekend is looking pretty good as far as our availability is concerned so I think we'll be able to knock out at least a few episodes.

One thing I'm not looking forward to is the sudden realization tons of people will have on August 18 that Shadowland has always been their favorite storyline ever. But whatevs...

I don't really have much to add, sadly I'm without a TV but I do have Netflix but I am extremely excited for this one. I mean this is the Avengers of the Netflix series, how can you not be psyched for that?

I expect the both of you to report back here to discuss the series in depth once you've finished watching it. In the meantime, here's the final trailer (unfortunately the uploader seems to have cut off the ending):



A few more questions.

Will Misty Knight finally get her mechanical arm in this series?

I'm confident Danny will get his Iron Fist costume eventually. There's been too much backlash for him not to, and the subject keeps getting raised in every cast interview. Charlie Cox even joked about wanting to take Finn Jones to see Potter so he could get his mask. The question is, will he get the costume in The Defenders or Iron Fist season 2?

Will Stone make another appearance? He's one of the most badass members of the Chaste in the comics, and his cameo in DD s1 was awesome. If this series marks the end of the Hand, will the Chaste disappear also? Stick got killed in the comics. Will he die in this series too?

Five days. Argh!

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Sun, 13 Aug  2017, 01:48
One thing I'm not looking forward to is the sudden realization tons of people will have on August 18 that Shadowland has always been their favorite storyline ever. But whatevs...

Perhaps this series will challenge people to re-evaluate that story.

Apparently this is the final trailer. The best one yet, IMO.


It looks like Daredevil's cowl has more of a matte finish than when we last saw it, but that could just be the lighting.

I started watching this at 10 am and finished at 10:30 pm. It's late, so here are just a few random thoughts thrown together quickly. Spoilers ahead.

I enjoyed the series a lot – it's my second favourite Marvel Netflix show after Daredevil – but I also have a lot of issues with it. The first half of the season was very slow and heavily reliant on exposition. The second half was mostly awesome.

Obviously the writers didn't have the luxury of a plot device like S.H.I.E.L.D. to quickly unite everyone and bring them all up to speed. Instead the characters in The Defenders have to cross paths organically and discover one another's secrets a piece at a time. The lives of these heroes are heavily intertwined with those of their supporting casts, making it impossible to extract them from their environments without bringing along a lot of baggage in the process. Because of this the story sometimes felt overstuffed, and I can only imagine how incomprehensible it must be to someone who's never seen any of these series before now.  But the writers did a good job of making it an ensemble piece, giving each character their own storyline and remaining true to established characterisations. There was no one main star who hogged the spotlight. It's a true team show.

The idea of each character having their own signature colour was cool, but I felt they overdid the filters a little in the first two or three episodes. Sometimes the screen was so dark I really couldn't see what was happening. I know some people raised this complaint about the Daredevil solo series, but I never had a problem seeing what was going on in that show. In The Defenders, however, I found the screen to be a little too dark at times. But this mostly just applies to the first few episodes. The opening fight scene of episode one was particularly bad in this regard (and the online reports about the Punisher appearing turned out to be false). The choppy editing during that sequence also didn't help. The first couple of episodes in general were a tad over-edited. I was disappointed to see Philip J Silvera didn't handle the choreography. I'm keeping my fingers crossed he'll be back for Daredevil s3. But the photography, editing, cinematography and fight choreography all improved as the season progressed. The fight scenes in the last few episodes were particularly impressive, and the overall look of the show was consistent with the high standard of quality you'd expect from the Marvel Netflix brand.

The production design also deserves a mention. Usually these Netflix shows adhere to a strictly grim and gritty aesthetic, and there's certainly no shortage of that in The Defenders. But the supernatural subject matter here allowed them to branch out into some more fantastical environments. At first I was a little disappointed when I realised Midland Circle was the MCU version of the Shadowland stronghold, but I ended up really liking those interior sets. They had a surreal and almost sci-fi feel to them. And the tunnels underneath were equally cool. Daredevil's costume has never looked as good in live action as it does in this show, but I was disappointed to see Danny never suited up. The final scene where he's crouching on the rooftop DD-style would have been the perfect place to debut his costume. They could have explained how he got it during a flashback in Iron Fist season 2. That felt like a missed opportunity. Still, I preferred his green threads here to what he wore in the first season of his solo series.

I like how Elektra's characterisation progressed from The Man Without Fear thrill-seeker to the coldblooded assassin of her early comic appearances. Her costume was a big improvement and her action scenes were also impressive. I liked Alexandra for the most part and Sigourney Weaver was great in the role. But shocking though her death scene was, it frustratingly deprived her arc of a substantial payoff. Ultimately her character felt like a lot of build-up for nothing. The same is true of the Hand's grand master plan. I can't help being disappointed by the truth behind their big scheme. So all the machinations that began in DD s1 were about digging up some dragon bones so they could procure a substance to extend their lives? And Black Sky, while undeniably badass, was essentially just an enforcer? Honestly, it's not the most satisfying payoff.

And then there's the ending. We've now leapt straight into the middle of Born Again, which forces me to rethink my predictions for DD s3. We've skipped the whole first half of that storyline, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. I was hoping The Defenders would end with the status quo intact so I could go straight from DD s2 to s3 when re-watching the series. Now I'll have to incorporate The Defenders into my viewing schedule. But a Born Again adaptation could still work. More than ever though, they have to bring in Bullseye for s3. At this stage it's a must.

That's all I'll say for now. I've focused mostly on the negative here, but there were lots of thing I loved about the show too. I'll write more about those later.

If anyone is interested, I will be doing a review of the first episode on my radio podcast tomorrow (Sunday) at 6:00 pm Eastern time
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/weeklytrendingfandom

I watched Chris Stuckmann's review earlier today and found I agreed with everything he says, except the bit about Foggy and Karen being annoying. But I do agree that Misty Knight's constant interference in the latter part of the season grew tiresome.


Before I begin my second viewing, here are a few additional random thoughts. Spoilers once again.

As far as comic influences go (and that subject definitely deserves its own thread), this was basically a mixture of Frank Miller's Elektra Lives Again, Andy Diggle's Shadowland, and Brian Michael Bendis' 2017 The Defenders Vol 5.

Two movies this show reminded me of were Highlander and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1990). For Highlander you've got the whole thing about the ancient warriors who can only be killed by decapitation, as well as the scene where Jess discovers the signatures revealing the various aliases Alexandra has used throughout the centuries. For TMNT you've got the scenes of the four heroes battling hordes of ninja, the final showdown in the tunnels under New York (sewers in TMNT), and the scene where the Defenders escape into the sewers with Stick. The scene where the Hand storm the Chinese restaurant reminded me of the raid on April's apartment in the 1990 film, which was adapted from TMNT Vol 1 #10 (April 1987), which in turn was inspired by a scene from Daredevil Vol 1 #189 (December 1982). So it all comes full circle.

If Elektra wiped out the Chaste, she presumably also killed Stone. Which means they'll never follow through on his brief appearance in DD s1. That's a shame.

There were some interesting deviations from the comic mythology here. In the MCU the Chaste and the Hand are now rooted in the mythology of K'un-Lun. Doesn't this contradict the version of the Hand's origins Stick described in DD s2?

It was great to see the Defenders each get improved strength, endurance and combat feats in this show. Luke was able to tank two direct chi punches from Iron Fist, one of which was the most powerful chi blast we've seen from the MCU Danny to date. Luke's combat skills also improved to the point where he was able to defeat a highly experienced top tier martial artist like Sowande. After seeing his performance in The Defenders, I now think the MCU Luke would stand a very good chance of taking Captain America in a fight. Jess also got some impressive new feats. This was the first time we got to see her take on skilled martial artists, and she was more than up to the challenge. In addition to one-shotting Iron Fist, she was able to stand toe-to-toe against Madame Gao and take down numerous Hand fodder. The moment where she saved Danny and Luke by flying up and catching the elevator cable was her best agility feat so far.

Matt was able to take on Bakuto and Murakami at the same time, and one of his knee strikes was powerful enough to send Bakuto smashing through a pile of concrete cinder blocks. He also dominated Iron Fist during their brief battle and was able to fight Black Sky Elektra to a standstill (though her confused feelings towards him undoubtedly played a role in this). Danny's fighting skills also improved in this series, as did his choreography. He was able to summon his Iron Fist with greater speed and consistency, successfully hurt Luke Cage on more than one occasion, and was able to solo against Black Sky Elektra before the rest of the Defenders came to his assistance. As for Elektra, I think she's more or less rocketed to the top spot on the MCU martial arts league table. I'm not sure if even Cap or Black Panther could take her now. Seriously, the Avengers would be idiots not to use these guys as auxiliaries in the Infinity War.

One or two elements of the plot were predictable. I knew Stick was going to die, and as soon as Misty entered the Midland Circle building I was just waiting for Bakuto to slice off her arm. But Alexandra's death caught me off guard, and I wasn't expecting the series to end the way it did for Matt and Elektra.

With regards to the Daredevil vs. Iron Fist fight, I'm seeing a lot of online debate about whether it was a stalemate or a clear win for Matt. To my mind, this was not a stalemate. Nor was it a stomp. But Matt clearly had the upper hand. He dominated the fight and landed over twice as many hits on Danny as Danny did on him. And two of Danny's hits were sucker blows: the first when Matt was trying to reason with him, the second when Matt had already stepped down and was backing away. When they were actually fighting, Danny couldn't tag him. But Matt scored numerous blows against Iron Fist.


Matt was comparatively calm and restrained here. If he'd been using his billy clubs and if he'd been bloodlusted like he was when he fought Nobu in the DD s2 finale, I'm confident he would've wrecked Iron Fist in this scene. Matt did better soloing against Elektra than Danny did and was practically able to stalemate her. Even Stick said that Matt was more worthy to lead the Chaste than Iron Fist. So I think it's fair to say that Daredevil>Iron Fist is now canon in the MCU.

Regarding the ending, now that I've had more time to think about it I'm actually happy they ended the season with that Born Again scene. We now know for a fact that Born Again will be at least partly adapted in season 3. The very next scene has to be Matt meeting Sister Maggie, which is the middle act of BA. This means we've skipped the whole first half of the story, but even that can still be loosely adapted (I never expected a literal scene-by-scene adaptation, as 13 episodes would be far too long for that). In the MCU Fisk's vendetta is not solely against Daredevil, but against Nelson & Murdock. He said he was going to target Foggy when he got out of jail and that's what I think will happen. Instead of seeing Fisk destroy Matt's life, we'll likely see him go after Foggy, Karen and Melvin Potter. If Matt recovers from his injuries and returns to his old life quickly enough, then I suppose Fisk might also target him. But I think it's more likely the first half of season 3 will focus on Matt getting to know Maggie and discovering the truth behind his family history, while Foggy and Karen are targeted by Fisk. Then, when things are at their worst, Daredevil will return to restore the balance. We were never going to get the BA beatdown between Fisk and Matt anyway, since they already adapted that in DD s1. So I'm happy for them to reorder the sequence of events a little. Like I say, we now know for a fact that DD s3 will be at least partly based on Born Again. And that's awesome.

Krysten Ritter teaching Charlie Cox to knit in between scenes.


Because real men know how to knit.

Here was my show's discussion on the Defenders. Keep in mind I have only seen one episode and the host had only seen 8 so it's not a full season review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9spj8vr6VxY&t=330s

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sat, 19 Aug  2017, 19:17As far as comic influences go (and that subject definitely deserves its own thread), this was basically a mixture of Frank Miller's Elektra Lives Again, Andy Diggle's Shadowland, and Brian Michael Bendis' 2017 The Defenders Vol 5.

I'm a bit disappointed that there wasn't a heavier Shadowland influence. Yeah, there was that business with the Midland building but that's pretty much it. Shadowland was in a way The Exorcist with superheroes and that's not really what Defenders was like.

In one sense, I shouldn't complain since it's not like the showrunners lied to me or something. But on the other hand, the final outcome seemed scaled down as compared to what it could've been... and maybe would've been if the aforementioned Exorcist angle had played a bigger role in the story.

This is another instance where the source material was circumvented in a detrimental way. A defining (and iconic) element of the comics was Bullseye killing Elektra. She was good but he was magic. We've been deprived of that story and I doubt we'll get it in some future season of Daredevil. When Bullseye killed Elektra in the comics, big stuff came out of that. It didn't just happen and then get forgotten about. It's important that Elektra died and it's important that she was killed by Bullseye. The two go hand in hand in the comics... but not with Netflix.

Now, here with Defenders, we've been deprived of key elements of Shadowland. And here again, I doubt future seasons of anything will give us the missing items from Shadowland.

Assuming they go in a Born Again direction for Daredevil s3... well, we'll be deprived of key elements of that too. There won't be a slow, methodical deconstruction of Matt's life where he wonders if he's paranoid or something.

I don't expect panel-by-panel adaptations of stories in these Netflix shows. I think it's wrongheaded to demand that. But at the same time, the stories followed a particular arc. A character begins the story in one place and then he finishes the story in a different place. Important character dynamics are fleshed out before, during and after.

Now we're getting into major storylines where key issues and story points are sidestepped. If there was a reason for sidestepping them, I wouldn't gripe about it. But there's no logical reason for sidestepping them, other than those micro-story elements don't function within the macro-story the writers are telling.

As you and I are fond of saying, Daredevil isn't Batman. As much as I love the character, even I have to acknowledge that he doesn't have as many marquee storylines as Batman. Shortchanging the few iconic stories that he does have makes no sense to me whatsoever.

The death of Elektra, Shadowland, Born Again, the writers won't get a second change with any of those stories. When they're done, they're done and then it'll be time to move on. It's just frustrating to me.

I finished watching The Defenders yesterday. I hate to say it, but I was underwhelmed.

It had some good character moments, but the overall story didn't impress me. Sigourney Weaver as Alexandra was a waste, I wasn't too enthused with Daredevil's arc, Iron Fist's dialogue continues to be below par compared to the rest of the characters, and the entire Hand storyline has been forgettable. I thought an eight episode mini-series would've made the show more cohesive, but instead it felt overlong and slow.

This is where I'd put Defenders if I had to rank Marvel's Netflix shows:

• Daredevil Season 1
• Jessica Jones
• Daredevil Season 2
• Luke Cage
• The Defenders and Iron Fist - tied

Disappointing. I hope Punisher will be better.