Batman-Online.com

Well, I haven't seen the entire film since '97, so my memory is a bit spotty.

http://dccomments.proboards62.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=dbst&thread=618&page=1

For all intents and purposes, Mr. Freeze's origin is pretty much how it was in the comics (after they incorporated the animated series one). Just take Ferris Boyle out of the equation...

Wilfred Pennyworth is actually in the comics.  At least in Len Wein's The Untold Legend of The batman.

And the comic Hothouse by John Francis Moore and P. Craig Russell ends with Poison Ivy in Arkham doing the "He loves me, he loves me not" with the flower.

Okay, so that's not a lot, but again, I wanted to be fair and do a thread for every live-action film from 1989-present.

So your telling me there was no nipples,butt shots,ice puns or neon gangs in the comics :o.

"It's called comic book, not tragic book"
- Joel Schumacher

Kilmers batman is the closest thing we'll ever get on screen to a Denny O'Neil Batman!

Here's the comic-movie comparison no one wanted. An extremely detailed analysis of Batman and Robin (1997). There isn't much serious discussion about this film anywhere on the web, so I thought this might make an interesting change. I'm not defending the quality of the film, just objectively evaluating its faithfulness to the source material.

Producer Michael Uslan once said that Batman and Robin was primarily based on the sixties era Batman comics.

QuoteThe 1960s Batman - "Pow, Zap, and Wham." Fortunately or unfortunately - fortunately for those who only know the 60s TV show - and unfortunately for you and me - BATMAN AND ROBIN was the Batman of the mid-60s.

http://www.batman-on-film.com/interview_muslan_4.html
I think he's basically right on this point, although the movie also references a few stories from the eighties and nineties too.

So let's start with the casting. George Clooney certainly looks like the Bruce Wayne from the comics.

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And I think he looks a lot like the Alex Ross Batman when wearing the suit.

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Chris O'Donnell is a perfect physical match for the adult Dick Grayson in the comics. He's five foot ten with blue eyes, a square jaw and an athletic physique. I suppose you could nitpick that his hair is brown instead of black, but that aside his physical characteristics match the adult Robin's perfectly.

Robin's costume in this movie was of course modelled on the Nightwing costume from the 90s.

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There was even a line in the original script that alluded to this.

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Mr. Freeze's appearance in the film is similar to his muscular high-tech look from the nineties comics, which itself was an evolved version of the Otto Preminger version from the TV show.

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When we first see Mr. Freeze he's stealing a diamond from a museum. Before Paul Dini introduced Mr. Freeze's more sympathetic origin story, his MO typically revolved around ice-themed crimes. He would often try and steal diamonds, seeing as how a slang term for diamonds is 'ice'. The very first time Batman and Robin encountered Mr. Freeze – back when he was known as Mr. Zero in 'The Ice Crimes of Mr. Zero' (Batman #121, February 1959) – he was in the process of stealing diamonds.

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Of course back then he was known as Mr. Zero. He only appeared in one story and was promptly forgotten until writer Max Hodge decided to use him in a two-part story for the Batman television series. Hodge reworked the character to make him more interesting, and he and the rest of the crew imbued him with certain characteristics that were subsequently adopted into the comics. Amongst there were:
•   His new name: Mr. Freeze
•   His Teutonic background
•   His blue skin
Mr. Zero was then reintroduced into the comics in the story 'Mr. Freeze's Chilling Deathtrap!' (Detective Comics #373, March 1968); one of the stories that most heavily influenced Schumacher's film. This was the first time he appeared as 'Mr. Freeze', and his change of name was playfully attributed to the TV show. 

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In 1996, Hodge applied for monetary compensation for his part in creating Mr. Freeze. He created a document to support his case containing his notes on the writing of the first script and correspondences with the producer. You can read the whole thing over at www.batfriend.com/data.htm. It's a fascinating read for anyone who has an interest in the Mr. Freeze character or just the sixties TV show in general.

As far as the casting of Arnold Schwarzenegger goes – well this isn't a comic influence, but check out this fan letter printed in Batman #479 (June 1992).

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I love the fact the editor only printed this letter because it was such a terrible idea. I hope Ralph T. Kirkum is happy he got his wish...

Anyway, back to the movie. Mr. Freeze's freeze-gun functions much the same as it does in the comics.

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Batman and Robin show up and are attacked by Freeze's henchman. During the battle they click their feet together to make skates come out of their boots. Back in the fifties Batman and Robin would often use 'jet skates' to quickly manoeuvre around the city. As it happens, they were wearing these the very first time they encountered Mr. Freeze back in Batman #121.

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During the skirmish Batman and Robin use ice skates and hockey sticks to fight their opponents. A remarkably similar battle occurred in 'Murder Masquerade!' (Batman #268, October 1975) in which Batman and Robin fought their enemies on an ice rink using hockey sticks. And they spouted their fair share of hockey-puns too.

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Freeze escapes the museum in his Freezemobile. The Mr. Freeze in the comics drove a vaguely similar vehicle in his second appearance in Detective Comics #373.

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Batman then gives chase, firing a grapple hook from a device on his wrist. He, Batgirl and Robin are shown to do this several times throughout the movie rather than using a more traditional hand-held grapple gun as in the previous films. The Batman in the comics has occasionally used a similar wrist-mounted grapple launcher.

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Freeze then traps Batman on a rocket heading into space and leaves him to die there. This scenario, whereby the villain leaves Batman in a seemingly inescapable death trap and doesn't stick around to watch the outcome, was a staple of the old Batman TV show from the sixties. We see a similar example later in the movie where Ivy tries to leave Batman and Robin to die in the Turkish baths.

Robin shows up to rescue Batman and cuts him free using a laser tool. The dynamic duo both carry such tools and made especially prominent use of them in the sixties comics and TV show.

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Batman then places a Batbomb. Again, these have shown up in numerous comics.

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The scene of Robin sky-surfing is likely a nod to Pepe Moreno's 1990 one-shot Digital Justice. Moreno used computer generated artwork to tell a story about a new Batman and Robin protecting Gotham in the future. It had a contemporary cyberpunk feel that I expect would've appealed to Joel Schumacher's visual sensibilities. In this comic Robin has a flying skateboard, and the image of him surfing through the night sky over Gotham is pretty similar to the scene in the movie.

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Mr. Freeze using his freeze-gun to facilitate a getaway is typical of the comic character (note the lame ice pun – "Don't get hot under the collar" – also typical of the early stories).

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Batman and Robin using their capes like parachutes to slow their descent has also happened many times in the comics.

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Mr. Freeze relaxing in a dressing gown while his henchmen freeze in his subzero hideout harkens back to his first appearance in Batman #121.

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Moving on to Batgirl. As I mentioned in another thread, the version in this movie is basically an amalgamation of two characters from the sixties comics: the original Batgirl Betty Kane and Alfred's niece Daphne.
Betty showed up on her aunt's doorstep in 'Batgirl!' (Batman #139, April 1961). Her aunt was course Kathy Kane, aka Batwoman. But Betty didn't know this at first.

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In 'Angel—or Devil?' (Batman #216, November 1969) we see the first appearance of Alfred's niece, Daphne. Her arrival is just as abrupt as Betty's. But Alfred and co welcome her with open arms. Both Betty and Daphne immediately attract the attention of Dick Grayson.

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While we're on the subject of Alfred's family its worth mentioning that the Alfred in the comics also has a brother called Wilfred.

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Daphne at first appears to be a trustworthy young girl. But she is soon caught snooping around the Manor late at night, up to no good.

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The storyline about Alfred's sickness is yet another element adapted from Detective Comics #373. In the comic it is Aunt Harriet who is sick.

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Her condition can only be cured by use of a rare cryosurgical instrument which operates on the same principle as Mr. Freeze's freeze-gun. But this breaks when the doctors try to operate, and Bruce and Dick are told that Aunt Harriet will die unless they can find a replacement device.

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Moving on to Poison Ivy now. The version in this movie is pretty accurate to the comics and seemingly takes her cues from Ivy's first few appearances in the sixties as well as a story arc from the early eighties.

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Neil Gaiman's Black Orchid (1989) revealed that Ivy became the way she is after being experimented on by her college teacher, Jason Woodrue.

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In the movie she makes her public debut at a charity auction. Batman and Robin were constantly attending these kind of social events in the forties, fifties and sixties. Here's an example from 'Batman's Marriage Trap' (Batman #214, August 1969). In this scene Batman and Robin attend a beauty contest where the winning girl gets a date with batman himself. It's the kind of media-friendly antics the darker Batman would never indulge, but the sixties Batman was only too happy to go along with.

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The Bat-credit card.

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This is really bothering me, but there's something nagging at my memory telling me I've seen this in a comic. I can't remember which one, so it might just be my memory playing tricks on me. But I could have sworn I once read a comic where Batman produced a credit card from his utility belt. He may have used it to force a locked door or something, but I can't remember the exact issue. Nevertheless my gut tells me the Bat-credit card does exist in the comics. If anyone can find evidence of this, please post it.
 
When Poison Ivy first appeared in 'Beware of -- Poison Ivy!' (Batman #181, June 1966) she made her debut at a weird pop art display showcasing models with peculiar names. Ivy shows up and upstages the other women, introducing herself as the most beautiful of them all.

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Batman is instantly enamoured with her, and finds himself distracted to the point that it's impeding his work. This creates some friction between him and Robin. But in the comic Batman is the one who becomes obsessed with Ivy, while Robin is the one who tries to warn him.

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Batman punching a bad guy through a drum is typical of the wacky fight scenes from the Pre-Crisis comics.

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Bruce Wayne is haunted by the memory of Ivy and starts to hallucinate about her when he is with his girlfriend. Batman's encounters with Ivy often bring about these kind of obsessive hallucinations. A good example would be Ivy's second appearance in the comics in 'A Touch of Poison Ivy!' (Batman #183, August 1966).

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Bruce's girlfriend in the movie is Julie Madison. In the comics, Julie Madison was an actress and Batman's first girlfriend. She first appeared in 'Batman Versus the Vampire' (Detective Comics 31, September 1939) where she was introduced as Bruce Wayne's fiancée. The movie makes several references to her and Bruce getting engaged, and those are likely nods to their short-lived betrothal in the comics.

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Bane visually resembles his comic counterpart.

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I won't bother addressing Bane's origins in the comics as Gotham Alleys already did a great job of that in a recent blog entry.
http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2011/02/bane.html
Needless to say the Bane in the move is a significant departure from the comic version.

However, I mentioned in another thread that Bane in this movie is similar to a character called Evan. Evan was a chauffeur/henchman that served Ivy during a story arc in the early eighties. When he first appeared he was called 'Evan'. Later he was referred to as 'Ivor'. It's possible they're two separate characters, but since they're so similar in appearance and personality, and since they both appear within the same story arc, it seems more likely the writer simply changed his name in between issues.

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In 'A Sweet Kiss of Poison' (Batman #339, September 1981), Ivy disguises herself with a wig in order to manoeuvre in public without being recognised. Note Evan/Ivor driving the car.

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Once disguised, she is able to get close to Bruce Wayne and cast her influence over him.

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This story arc is finally resolved in 'Monster, My Sweet!' (Batman #344, February 1982). In this story Ivy's moustachioed chauffer – now referred to as 'Ivor', but apparently the same guy she'd previously called 'Evan' – is transformed into a giant half plant/half human monster.

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He is slavishly devoted to Ivy, communicates in short simple sentences and calls her 'mistress'. She commands him to attack Batman and the two of them do battle.

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Ivy mutated Ivor as part of her experiments to try and create a plant/human hybrid.

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And now a piece of trivia I wasn't previously aware of. Golum, the gang leader in the Turkish baths, was played by Doug Hutchison (A Time to Kill, The Green Mile, Punisher: War Zone). I always remember Hutchison for his portrayal Eugene Victor Tooms, the liver-eating serial killer from the first season of The X-Files. I only recently found out he was in this movie.

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Not a comic reference, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Meanwhile Barbara Gordon has discovered the Batcave. This scene seems to be another nod to Pepe Moreno's Digital Justice. When the new Batman and Robin enter the old Batcave in this comic they find a Max Headroom-style computerised version of the original Batman talking to them through the Batcomputer. The computerised Batman explains that he anticipated someone might take up the mantle and has prepared costumes and equipment for his successors.

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Elsewhere, Batman and Robin fall into Ivy's trap. Over the years Ivy has developed a seemingly supernatural ability to control vines. Here's an early example of her setting vines on Batman to crush/strangle him to death. This is taken from the aforementioned Batman #339.

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The confrontation between Ivy and Batgirl in the movie showcases the former's skills at unarmed combat. These too are evidenced in Batman #344.

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In this issue she is also shown using a vine like a whip, snaring an opponent's ankle the way she did in the movie.

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Going back to Batman #139, the first time Batgirl appeared in costume was when she came to the aid of Batman, Robin and Batwoman, all of whom had been incapacitated by a villain. Batgirl sprang through a window and helped them.

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At first they didn't realise who she was under the mask. But then she explained that she'd discovered her aunt's secret identity and taken the initiative of creating one for herself. Also note that the Betty Kane Batgirl didn't wear a full cowl like Barbara Gordon did, instead sporting a simpler eye mask that left her blonde hair exposed.

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Later in the film Batgirl wears a cowl reminiscent of the Barbara Gorgon Batgirl's costume. She is also shown riding her Batgirl-cycle, the signature vehicle of the Gordon Batgirl since her debut in 1967.

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The plot about Mr. Freeze trying to freeze Gotham with a giant freeze-cannon is taken from 'The Glacier Under Gotham!' (Batman #375, September 1984).

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A lot of people question Batman's sudden change of costume towards the end of the film. The comic adaptation explains that the new Arctic suit is resistant to extreme cold, including Mr. Freeze's freeze-gun.

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Batman in the comics has a variety of different costumes for different environments, including special thermal suits for cold climates.

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The idea of Freeze being incapacitated after having his suit damaged is one used many times in the comics.

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'Hot House' (Legends of the Dark Knight #42-43, 1993) ends with Ivy playing he loves me/he loves me not in her cell.
 
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And as for Alfred's/Aunt Harriet's illness – in Detective Comics #373 Batman and Robin are able to defeat Mr. Freeze and take his freeze-gun to the surgeons at the hospital. They then use it in a cryosurgical procedure to save Aunt Harriet and the story ends with her making a full recovery.

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And on that happy note I'll end this overlong analysis.

as much as everyone in the world hates this peice of crap movie i love the tone of it. why i say peice of crap is the core material, the dialogue is awful especially for something coming after the burton movies. but the idea to make the goofy era of batman come back was pretty solid. see right there i went back and forth but at the end of the day i do haveto embrace it. its unfortunate we didnt see batman go back to his basics, schumacher was planing to make a darker batman after he realised he let things get out of hand but obviously we would still know all too well that our dark knight was considered a joke by that point.

basically yeah it sucked, but yeah i still enjoy it cause i try not to overthink it, and i really loved the things you pointed out in your post so thanks very much for putting that up. lets me embrace it even a little more.

Yeah the main issues with B&R for me are the script and performances (and the treatment of Bane).

Silver Nemesis....that was amazing.....I love you!  ;D

I managed to sit back and enjoy myself. Well done.

Crow-BaR has a lot of comic references going for it!

Glad you all liked it. :)

I might add some stuff to the Batman Forever comic influences thread soon.

In the meantime I'd be interested to know if anyone views this movie differently in the light of Michael Gough's passing. The storyline about Alfred dying has a little more resonance for me now. They're the only scenes in the movie that Clooney plays straight. And Gough's performance deserves to be in a better movie.

This is the power of Michael Gough; he makes Batman Forever and Batman and Robin watchable.

Excellent analysis, Silver Nemesis, i wouldn't be surprised if Batman whipped out some form of Credit Card or Bat-check book in the 50's/ 60's.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 21 Mar  2011, 01:40
The Bat-credit card.

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This is really bothering me, but there's something nagging at my memory telling me I've seen this in a comic. I can't remember which one, so it might just be my memory playing tricks on me. But I could have sworn I once read a comic where Batman produced a credit card from his utility belt. He may have used it to force a locked door or something, but I can't remember the exact issue. Nevertheless my gut tells me the Bat-credit card does exist in the comics. If anyone can find evidence of this, please post it.

I'm not sure if this is what I was thinking of when I wrote the above, but Bruce Wayne uses a special credit card to access the batcave beneath the Wayne Enterprises building in 'The "I" of the Beholder' (Detective Comics #511, February 1982). It looks like a regular credit card, but is said to be "specially treated" in some way. Bruce swipes it through an innocuous slot on an elevator control panel, and it takes the elevator down to the batcave. Never leave the cave without it? In this instance, it's more like never enter the cave without it.


So there we have it, folks – the Bat-credit card. And with that, my analysis of this cinematic masterpiece is finally complete.

Feature material!

Are you sure you want to post a feature about this movie? People might start to think we actually like it. But then if I didn't like it, why did I waste so much time writing this article on it...?  :-[

I've got a few extra things to add to the Batman Forever comic influences thread too. I'll try and get around to doing that soon.

I say screw the haters. We should celebrate Batman in all his forms, for good and bad.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Fri, 17 Aug  2012, 23:47I say screw the haters. We should celebrate Batman in all his forms, for good and bad.

Well. "Celebrate". I dunno about that. But a weird thing happened not long after that mega DVD set came out a few years back. By that point, we had all or most of BTAS on DVD, special editions of the Burton films, special editions of the Schumacher films, the Batman Begins DVD, the serials and I think other stuff too. On top of that, I think it was around 2004 or 2005 that DC got SERIOUS about printing up approximately two craploads of Batman trade paperbacks containing stories from eras too numerous to cite.

All of that stuff had a strange (perhaps unintended) side effect for B&R. No, I'll never love that movie. But all that other stuff helped at least me put it into a larger context. No, it's not Batman's finest hour. Not even close. But all that stuff up there did somehow make B&R easier to accept and just enjoy for whatever you can get out of it.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 17 Aug  2012, 23:34
Are you sure you want to post a feature about this movie? People might start to think we actually like it. But then if I didn't like it, why did I waste so much time writing this article on it...?  :-[

I've got a few extra things to add to the Batman Forever comic influences thread too. I'll try and get around to doing that soon.

Honestly, I feel that all of our comic book influences write-ups should be made into Batman-Online features (Sorry, Paul, I realize that's going to take some work, haha).  Right now, TDKR and Batman Returns are up and B89 is coming soon, but I think there could easily be Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, Batman Begins, and The Dark Knight comic book comparison features to complete the collection.

This'll take time, but one thing I'd like to add in all the articles is the names of the writers/creators and artists involved with these influential comics.  Fans online talk a lot about Burton, Schumacher, and Nolan, but none of those guys would've gotten anywhere without the comic book writers and artists who set the stage for everything.  Some are obvious, like Frank Miller and Alan Moore.  Others, not so much (i.e. a ton of The Dark Knight Rises comes from material by Chuck Dixon, Doug Moench, Greg Rucka, etc.).  I realize this is a lot since there's a ton of comics, but I think it'd be good to show acknowledgement.

Sounds fair to me. It would take a long time, but these guys really do deserve credit. I was surprised to see just how much of TDKR was lifted from the works of Dixon and Moench. They didn't get an onscreen credit, so the least we can do is acknowledge them in our features.

Regarding the comic-to-movie threads on Burton's films, I was going to suggest we scrap them and write new ones from scratch. We could include all the old stuff, but add lots of extra material and go into ridiculously fine detail (comic comparisons for every single gadget, every single device in the batcave, every fighting move Batman uses, etc).

I was also thinking that in the case of Batman Returns, we could mention stories that came out after the movie to show how the film influenced the comics. For example, when discussing Penguin's origins we could mention how they were different to the one in the comics at the time. Then, after giving a quick overview of Oswald's back story in the old comics, we could say "However, recent revisions have brought Oswald's comic book origins more in line with those depicted in the movie..." And we'd then go on to mention things like Pain and Prejudice. By doing that, I reckon we could justify pretty much every aspect of the movie, including controversial stuff like the Penguin's deformity or his plan to kill all the children. Just as long as we make it clear which comparisons are influences on the movie, and which came afterwards.

As I've said before, it'd amazing if we could get some quotes confirming what the comic influences were. But in the case of Batman Returns, the only ones I can find are:

Michael Uslan:

Quote"I think by the time of the second film, Tim was into the then current Batman comics of the 1990's, Which was a much darker, I call it a soulless, almost vampiric period for Batman. As a result of all of that Batman Returns, 1992, was a significantly darker, drearier film."

Daniel Waters, talking about The Dark Knight Returns:

Quote''I think it's one of the best things done in any medium in the last five years. In fact, I was one of those naïve people who thought 'Why not just make a movie out of Miller's version?' Then you realize that no studio is going to spend $60 million on a movie where five hundred people get killed on The David Letterman Show.''

Michael Bair, artist on Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper:

Quote"This is the scene that was copied in both "Batman Returns" & "Catwoman" movies, where the dead body is surrounded by cats."

It's not much to go on.

I haven't seen any quotes from Sam Hamm on the subject. I know Waters said he disregarded everything from Hamm's draft, but the fact remains he's credited as a writer and the plot of the finished film does have elements from his script in it.

There is a Batman & Robin feature now open for editing.

I will get the rest opened up tonight.

I can transfer the images and text in the forum so far...it will be quicker than than the usual interface since you guys have already done the work.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Fri, 17 Aug  2012, 23:47
I say screw the haters. We should celebrate Batman in all his forms, for good and bad.

I agree with you. Batman & Robin may not be the best Batman movie ever (and it's not), but I like the "warm" feel it has to it, the family theme and I thought Clooney was a great Batman for what he had to work with. Had he been given the right material to work with (a dark, gritty Batman), he might have been the best up there with Keaton. I thought the whole thing looked cool and I remember loving the Bat suit when I was a kid (I still do, minus the nipples).

I try and enjoy the movie for what it is.

I remember being a kid when this came out and all the merchandise and Bat-mania that went with it. I know, not the best Bat-film to get excited about, but I guess it'll always have a little place in my heart.

Quote from: Batman88 on Thu,  6 Sep  2012, 14:22I thought Clooney was a great Batman for what he had to work with. Had he been given the right material to work with (a dark, gritty Batman), he might have been the best up there with Keaton.

I've never thought that. Clooney is great at playing Clooney. I've seen exactly nothing to convince me he would've been a good Batman in any other context.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Fri,  7 Sep  2012, 03:40

Quote from: Batman88 on Thu,  6 Sep  2012, 14:22I thought Clooney was a great Batman for what he had to work with. Had he been given the right material to work with (a dark, gritty Batman), he might have been the best up there with Keaton.

I've never thought that. Clooney is great at playing Clooney. I've seen exactly nothing to convince me he would've been a good Batman in any other context.

Agreed. I am starting to think though, that if Clooney played his Wayne exactly how it is in the movie - but transformed into a stoic Batman, it could've been very interesting. This big difference between the two personas. Although I'm not convinced Clooney could've pulled that off in a way I would've liked.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri,  7 Sep  2012, 03:44Agreed. I am starting to think though, that if Clooney played his Wayne exactly how it is in the movie - but transformed into a stoic Batman, it could've been very interesting. This big difference between the two personas. Although I'm not convinced Clooney could've pulled that off in a way I would've liked.

Not to demean Clooney's talents but I've always found it very telling that Burton held the camera on Keaton when he said "I'm Batman", Nolan held the camera on Bale when he said "I'm Batman" but Schumacher cut away when Clooney said "I'm Batman".

Look, the dude's got good, witty timing and he's a GREAT leading man but Clooney occasionally lapses into being Clooney. It's one reason why I think the Ocean movies served him so well. He could play a laid back ne'er do well who always has a fast quip. Material like that suits him. He makes it seem effortless. But if he had to bring across the kind of darkness that Batman is known for... okay, remember that bit at the beginning of BR where Bruce is sitting by himself in the library and the bat signal flashes in on him? His body language and other things suggest so much. I can't picture Clooney making that much out of that little. Just. Can't.

Or here's one. Most of you know I'm not big on Nolan's Batman movies but even I can recognize when they did something very well. There's a moment in Batman Begins right after Bruce gets roughed up. Falcone smack-talks Bruce's dad begging for mercy and Bale gives him a look of such impotent rage. You can see the darkness building behind his eyes but at the same time it has no outlet. Bruce has no ability to answer that insult... but don't think he didn't want to pound Falcone's face into the table. It's not just wanting to beat some ass, it's have the capacity to do it and in that moment it may well have been the first time Bruce realizes he has it. There's just no outlet, no training, nothing.

Bale, being a good actor, brings it all across in a very quick cut. It's there and it's gone. It takes long to describe it than it does to see the shot.

Anyway, I'm rambling...

When I watch B:TAS I compare it's Bruce Wayne/Batman to Clooney's. There is no Batman voice ulike what Kilmer and Bale did and Bruce is in the public eye unlike Keaton's Bruce Wayne.

I might have gotten carried away when writing that, but I definitely believe he was great at playing that kind of warm and family-oriented Bruce Wayne. Sure the material he was working with was bad for the most part, but who knows what could have been had B&R been a serious, dark Batman film.

I am going to be watching the Schumacher flicks tomorrow, and I'm going in with the following mentality.

The films are what they are. No matter how hard it may be, don't look at them and want something else.

Clooney plays Clooney in the batsuit. I'm not a fan of such an approach. But in this film's universe, that is the norm and accepted by everybody as 'Batman'. He didn't have to portray an angry, dark person because the film was not that.

I'll see how I go.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  8 Sep  2012, 02:14I am going to be watching the Schumacher flicks tomorrow, and I'm going in with the following mentality.

The films are what they are. No matter how hard it may be, don't look at them and want something else.

Clooney plays Clooney in the batsuit. I'm not a fan of such an approach. But in this film's universe, that is the norm and accepted by everybody as 'Batman'. He didn't have to portray an angry, dark person because the film was not that.

I'll see how I go.

One thing that helped me was listening to Schumacher's commentaries. There are may be directors who give better ones than he does but what struck me was his core concept behind each movie- "make something that entertains audiences".

On that basis... well, I enjoy them.

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  8 Sep  2012, 02:14
I am going to be watching the Schumacher flicks tomorrow, and I'm going in with the following mentality.

The films are what they are. No matter how hard it may be, don't look at them and want something else.

Clooney plays Clooney in the batsuit. I'm not a fan of such an approach. But in this film's universe, that is the norm and accepted by everybody as 'Batman'. He didn't have to portray an angry, dark person because the film was not that.

I'll see how I go.

That's the right approach towards Schumacher's Batmans, especially B&R. I find Clooney playing Wayne more appealing than Kilmer.

Mr Freeze is stronger than the Schumacher-verse and Nolan-verse Banes.

I mean, he sends a guard *flying* across the room, smashing into a glass display case.  He then proceeds to throw a guy straight up in a perfect vertical line to dislodge his freeze gun.

Impossible or not, these feats are repeated nowhere else in the movies.  :-\

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  8 Sep  2012, 08:54
Mr Freeze is stronger than the Schumacher-verse and Nolan-verse Banes.

I mean, he sends a guard *flying* across the room, smashing into a glass display case.  He then proceeds to throw a guy straight up in a perfect vertical line to dislodge his freeze gun.

Impossible or not, these feats are repeated nowhere else in the movies.  :-\

Yeah, I've always thought those were funny feats  ;D. I remember back in early 1997 (April or May) I got a VHS that contained all of the trailers for the big movies that were coming out that summer (The Lost World and others I can't remember) and B&R was among them. I found myself watching the trailer over and over again and anticipating the film like no other thing. What I distinctly remember about the trailer is that it featured a longer interaction between Batman and Mr. Freeze in the museum after Batman comes flying and kicks Freeze in the chest then gets up holding Freeze's gun and says something to him.

I remember loving that piece of dialogue (I was 9  ;D), thought it was cool, but then when I went to see the film at the theater I remember being disappointed that that scene had been shortened.

Anybody remember this too, or is memory playing tricks on me ?

Quote from: Batman88 on Sat,  8 Sep  2012, 09:39

Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sat,  8 Sep  2012, 08:54
Mr Freeze is stronger than the Schumacher-verse and Nolan-verse Banes.

I mean, he sends a guard *flying* across the room, smashing into a glass display case.  He then proceeds to throw a guy straight up in a perfect vertical line to dislodge his freeze gun.

Impossible or not, these feats are repeated nowhere else in the movies.  :-\

Yeah, I've always thought those were funny feats  ;D. I remember back in early 1997 (April or May) I got a VHS that contained all of the trailers for the big movies that were coming out that summer (The Lost World and others I can't remember) and B&R was among them. I found myself watching the trailer over and over again and anticipating the film like no other thing. What I distinctly remember about the trailer is that it featured a longer interaction between Batman and Mr. Freeze in the museum after Batman comes flying and kicks Freeze in the chest then gets up holding Freeze's gun and says something to him.

I remember loving that piece of dialogue (I was 9  ;D), thought it was cool, but then when I went to see the film at the theater I remember being disappointed that that scene had been shortened.

Anybody remember this too, or is memory playing tricks on me ?

Yes, that scene was shortened. Batman said "didn't your mother ever tell you not to play with guns".

Exactly , that's it !  :) I remember thinking how cool Batman looked in that new Bat-suit with the balck logo when I saw that scene.

Does anyone know who this blog belongs to?

http://batmannrobinonfilm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/batman-and-robin-was-actually-more.html

They've posted my analysis as their own work, editing it to remove the references to BatmAngelus and Gotham Alleys. They've even posted my avatar for some reason. I wouldn't mind too much, except it seems to be an anti-Nolan pro-Batman and Robin (1997) site :-[

WTF??!! Cheeky fecker!

We must get the analysis on the site as a feature and put a disclaimer on it.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 28 Jan  2013, 19:14Does anyone know who this blog belongs to?

http://batmannrobinonfilm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/batman-and-robin-was-actually-more.html

They've posted my analysis as their own work, editing it to remove the references to BatmAngelus and Gotham Alleys. They've even posted my avatar for some reason. I wouldn't mind too much, except it seems to be an anti-Nolan pro-Batman and Robin (1997) site :-[

Yeesh. If he had to steal something, why couldn't it have been Ral's layout? That site looks like crapola.

Still, looks like he's on Jett's bad side... or Jett's on his... or something.

He also "borrowed" my Schumacher defense article.

I like that the guy thinks outside the box but... he's so extreme on it that he robs his own credibility. And when you're defending Joel Schumacher, you need truckloads to get people to even listen.

What a cheek. DocLathropBrown and Silver Nemesis slog their guts out to produce quality work and some person just copies and pastes it in a few seconds, taking all the glory. That's low. Whats the bet he requests an Oprah interview when others realise the truth.

Ha ha!

It's my fault really. I should have got the Batman and Robin analysis up as a feature sometime last year. Ral gave me the go ahead to proceed with it, but I never got around to doing it until now. It should be up soon though.

I think its worse that this guy ripped off the Doc's feature than mine. For two reasons:

Firstly it wasn't just something someone had written in the message boards; it was a published feature on the site.

And secondly it was an opinion piece. It's one thing to steal facts from someone else's research. It's another thing altogether to plagiarise their personal opinions and try and pass them off as your own.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 29 Jan  2013, 20:14And secondly it was an opinion piece. It's one thing to steal facts from someone else's research. It's another thing altogether to plagiarise their personal opinions and try and pass them off as your own.

That sort of goes back to the Internet's inherent flaw: It gives everybody a voice... but we realized too late that most people have absolutely nothing to say.

Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 29 Jan  2013, 20:14
It's my fault really. I should have got the Batman and Robin analysis up as a feature sometime last year. Ral gave me the go ahead to proceed with it, but I never got around to doing it until now.

You're not at fault at all SN, whether it was in the forum or the main site, you're still the author of it and that guy (or anyone else) has no excuse for claiming it as his own work...and changing the intent of it. Never mind the fact that he tries to incorporate us into his agenda when he copied Doc's feature!

Not much I can add here, other than to say thanks to Paul for setting the record straight and defending Silver & Doc's great work.

Looks like this wasn't the only copy and paste job he's done:
http://batmannrobinonfilm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/merry-christmas-my-burton-keaton-batman.html
http://shazamaholic.blogspot.com/2011/06/retrospective-on-burton-keaton-batman.html

Well, to be fair my article wasn't exclusive to this site, as I had already written it for print publication in Shadowland Magazine, but since I was not paid for the contribution, I thought no harm in providing it for Batman Online as well (and it would get it a wider audience). At the very least in the entry using my article, he credits us for the article and does not say it's his own words. Though he credits me as "California guy."  ???

My only problem with his use of my article is that he risks de-legitimizing it by association. And if you look at the artcle here on the site, its comments are hardly supportive as it is. I knew the article would be an uphill battle to be taken seriously, but the guy doesn't help.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 30 Jan  2013, 05:46My only problem with his use of my article is that he risks de-legitimizing it by association. And if you look at the artcle here on the site, its comments are hardly supportive as it is. I knew the article would be an uphill battle to be taken seriously, but the guy doesn't help.

A year ago, I was pretty much "Burton rules!!!" After reading your piece, I'm a lot more prepared to give Schumacher his time in the sun... and not in spite of B&R, but (partially) because of it. I've never considered myself an open-minded person. If you can persuade me, you can rest assured you did your job well. Kudos, sir.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed, 30 Jan  2013, 07:57

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 30 Jan  2013, 05:46My only problem with his use of my article is that he risks de-legitimizing it by association. And if you look at the artcle here on the site, its comments are hardly supportive as it is. I knew the article would be an uphill battle to be taken seriously, but the guy doesn't help.

A year ago, I was pretty much "Burton rules!!!" After reading your piece, I'm a lot more prepared to give Schumacher his time in the sun... and not in spite of B&R, but (partially) because of it. I've never considered myself an open-minded person. If you can persuade me, you can rest assured you did your job well. Kudos, sir.

I can tell you this, it's kind of a giddy thrill 'getting' things that others don't. I'll never forget the first time I watched through Schumacher's two films and really saw them for what they were. I felt like I had unlocked a special puzzle that was just for me. While everyone else looks at them and only sees Neon and Nipples and Jokes, I saw pathos and drama and artistry and above all that, I saw fun.

I was 10 when B&R came out, and 8 for BF. I'm unique in the fact that I never went through a period where I disliked the two films--I've always liked them. But until recently and I saw the films through adult eyes, I never loved them like I do now. Are they imperfect and do they make mistakes? Yes. But I'm not inclined to discuss them--everyone else has done that enough. They're not the best Batman films, but they do so much well that it baffles me how people can't at least give them due credit.

Films are pieces of a whole. It doesn't matter the film (big budget films, anyway), an unparalled amount of work goes into making any major studio film. For people to judge any film by a few bad parts does a disservice to the whole, and all the people who spent hours upon days upon weeks upon months crafting it. I advocate appreciating what the production was trying to do, even if you don't agree with it.

I dislike most of Nolan's approach, but do I hate the films? No. I dislike the fans associated. Nolan isn't responsible for their actions, and likewise a lot of work went into The Dark Knight Trilogy. I can't discount what he was going for. I only would were he revealed to be an elistist dick. Any director is honestly trying when they make a film--it takes too much of their time to do otherwise.

I think certain gripes just become a strange party line after a while. Nobody is openly calling for group think but that's what ends up happening. It's bizarre.

To your point though, the one bit of credence I'll give to the Schumacher-bashing is that it underlines how important every single element of any film is. One bad idea has the strange ability to wipe out 10 or 12 good ideas. Once the shrieking masses get a hold of any common gripe and turn it into a meme, you're done.

Of course, it doesn't help that people have a very hard time understanding style and intent. For example, it bugs the piss out of me is when people say the Star Wars prequels have "bad effects" because a lot of the effects "don't look realistic". Well, the style and intent of the director is to make eye candy effects sequences but that seems to be forgotten about. It just kind of irks me that style, tone and intent aren't taken into account when people make these kinds of judgments. There's a school of thought that says "the audience is always right" but if the audience is comprised of ignorant buffoons who don't know their buttholes from their elbows when it comes to cinema, sorry, but there are several cases where the audience is completely full of it. The Star Wars prequels (and a lot of other misunderstood films) may have other problems but I would argue they're damned near bulletproof on technical, cinematic and stylistic levels.

Quote from: DocLathropBrown on Wed, 30 Jan  2013, 08:16
I can tell you this, it's kind of a giddy thrill 'getting' things that others don't. I'll never forget the first time I watched through Schumacher's two films and really saw them for what they were. I felt like I had unlocked a special puzzle that was just for me. While everyone else looks at them and only sees Neon and Nipples and Jokes, I saw pathos and drama and artistry and above all that, I saw fun.

You know what, this is exactly how I felt with the game based on Batman & Robin - even though overall the game isn't quite there, the love and attention to detail by the developers is quite obvious. While everyone else was probably seeing "another bad licenced game" (and possibly a retro gamer gone mad in praising it), I saw a valiant effort by Probe to use Batman & Robin as a vehicle in delivering the definitive Batman game for 1998. During the period when everyone was saying that the sky is blue ("Arkham City is incredible") I was curious to re-discover and see the merits of this 1998 Probe game. No one cared. Whatever.

None of this is likely to be breaking news for any of you but if the ambition here is to be complete and thorough, we should probably talk about some of the vehicles.

It was fairly well-established in the comics that both Batgirl and Robin rode motorcycles. Batman & Robin did not innovate much in giving those characters that mode of transportation.

Batman Family #12 (August 1977)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs9.postimage.org%2F7ydb3hlv3%2Fbatmanfamily12_01.jpg&hash=80bbea0e6b5efb18aae072da449c2ce31cf93835)

For Robin though, Schumacher went one better in calling the motorcycle the Redbird. In Detective Comics #668, Tim, having received a hardship driver's license, took possession of a vehicle Bruce had intended to give him once he became a legal driver. The vehicle's handle? Redbird. Schumacher could've simply skipped assigning any type of name to Robin's vehicle but calling it the Redbird was good attention to detail. In giving Dick a motorcycle but naming it after Tim's car, Schumacher played up the fact that the movie version of Dick Grayson was something of an amalgamation of all comic book Robins up to that point.

Detective #668 (November 1993)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs9.postimage.org%2F8p6199o8f%2Fdetective668_01.jpg&hash=5661381940d50387f1005e7c78b29133594d253e)

As to the Batmobile, the concept of Batman driving a topless sports car is no great innovation on Schumacher's part as it has considerable precedent in the comics.

Batman #164 (June 1964)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs22.postimage.org%2Fm176alwzl%2Fbatman164_01.jpg&hash=8675baf8e1293358654bd1ef3839612d356c7ba8)

This may be the first example of a completely topless Batmobile. I would defer to others on that one. But it is interesting to note that not only does this Batmobile obviously predate Batman & Robin, it also predates the Adam West TV show, which also featured a topless Batmobile.

As to the fact that the movie Batmobile apparently seats only one, that works on a few levels. Metatextually, Batman in the movie struggles with partnership with Robin. By giving Robin a separate means of transportation, Batman can exert control over him (as the film shows us). The transportation reflects the discord between the two characters. Plus, Dick had already been established as a motorcycle enthusiast so there is logic in depicting Robin on a motorcycle.

There is also precedent in the comics for a single-seat Batmobile.

Legends of the Dark Knight #15 (February 1991)
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs22.postimage.org%2Faq4im8q4h%2Flotdk15_01.jpg&hash=62220a18f0ac18a77795f8961924e7b2713524c5)

So yeah, anyway...

Great additions (and analysis), colors!

Thanks! I'm nowhere near SN's level but if there's something I can contribute, I'm happy to do so.

I'll have these added to the article in a couple of hours. Great stuff colors!

i'm late to the party but i liked batman and robin. like some other people said you just gots to take it for what it is and accept that it is...different. if you take a tim burton mind or whatev into it, you're going to pull your hair out and hate yourself for days lol.

and naughty naughty to the copy cat!

Quote from: Catwoman on Thu, 21 Mar  2013, 15:13
i'm late to the party but i liked batman and robin. like some other people said you just gots to take it for what it is and accept that it is...different. if you take a tim burton mind or whatev into it, you're going to pull your hair out and hate yourself for days lol.

and naughty naughty to the copy cat!

To be honest after seeing the dark knight rises I have a better appreciation for Batman and Robin; you actually have 2 opposite films there; BR is underdeveloped, TDKR is overdeveloped (went overboard making its points), BR wasn't serious enough TDKR was no fun because it was too serious. Batman and Robin may have had too many characters but at least they were all important characters; no John Blake type who wasn't even in the comics hogging the screentime.

That's a good catch about the 'Redbird', colors. I completely missed that one. Good analysis of the vehicles' psychological significance too.

QuoteAs to the fact that the movie Batmobile apparently seats only one, that works on a few levels. Metatextually, Batman in the movie struggles with partnership with Robin. By giving Robin a separate means of transportation, Batman can exert control over him (as the film shows us). The transportation reflects the discord between the two characters.

Somewhere, Joel Schumacher has just read this and smiled: "Finally, somebody gets it!"

QuoteThis may be the first example of a completely topless Batmobile. I would defer to others on that one.

Well, there was this beauty from Detective Comics #219 (May 1955).

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi396.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp42%2Fsilver-nemsis%2Fdc219_zpse2a933a1.jpg&hash=0542638557d62b5754b3e045757d24db7410b29c)

But the Batmobile from Batman #164 was certainly the first traditional Batmobile to ditch the roof/bubble dome look. Its design established a precedent that would be followed by all subsequent Batmobiles throughout the sixties, including the Lincoln Futura used in the TV show. And that was clearly what Schumacher was getting at with his own design.

But if we're counting convertibles, then Batman's earliest use of a roofless car was the model he drove in Detective Comics #37 (March 1940). It wasn't actually called the Batmobile though, so I guess it doesn't count.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.automopedia.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F10%2Fwallpaper-Batman-batmobile-Detective-Comics-37-copy.png&hash=eff924d424fe9c32ef98380bdbb252983ee6bdbe)

The following year Batman drove a red sedan in Detective Comics #48 (February 1941). This was the first car to be directly referred to as the "Batmobile". And it was roofless too.

(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi396.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fpp42%2Fsilver-nemsis%2Fdc48_zps9c238701.jpg&hash=c30c3a6803607622df9cbede4181e65100e6be8f)

So I guess you could trace the Batman and Robin Batmobile back to this.

Ok, this one's a stretch.

The gang member that tries to kill Barbara during the street race is named Spike. Spike was also the name of the Mutant gang member who tried to assault Carrie in the first chapter of The Dark Knight Returns. Stretching the analogy further, the movie version of Spike has red makeup around his eyes that somewhat evokes the red visors/shades worn by the Mutants in the comics.


The comic book Spike also has literal spikes protruding from his scalp. The movie Spike has similar spikes protruding from the top of his motorcycle helmet, as well as his shoulders.


Both characters are vicious gang members who try to harm a teenage girl destined to become Batman's sidekick. Both girls are saved by the timely intervention of a male superhero; Batman in the comic, Robin in the movie.

Well... I did say it was a stretch.

I was reading Batman #268 today. The climax of that comic features Batman & Robin ice skating while taking out the bad guys. Reminded me of the action sequence early on in this film.

Was reading Shadow of the Bat annual #3 and I couldn't help but notice that Ivy's disguise in this is very similar to the film.(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-putO7LTpCIQ/Vx7f2uTUR9I/AAAAAAAAWL0/VdcHTS4thEES3wg6JFFNVaCJkWy6rbVxACCo/s1600/RCO022.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/be/e2/6dbee2e41cc5ba017d3290e6f4e04aea.jpg)

Also, idk if it's been mentioned already but I like that John Glover's character is named Woodrue which is a reference to Ivy's Father who gave her her powers in the comics.

Honestly, this could've gone in any number of other threads. So, if the mods think this post belongs somewhere other than here in the B&R/comic influences thread and want to move it, be my guest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmZDLHd5nBU

I... hadn't thought much about to what extent Schumacher drew inspiration from BTAS/TNBA and, vice versa, how much the animated shows were influenced by Schumacher. But the similarities go a lot deeper than B&R essentially adapting Heart Of Ice's Mr. Freeze.

Quote from: thecolorsblend on Wed,  5 Apr  2023, 22:26I... hadn't thought much about to what extent Schumacher drew inspiration from BTAS/TNBA and, vice versa, how much the animated shows were influenced by Schumacher. But the similarities go a lot deeper than B&R essentially adapting Heart Of Ice's Mr. Freeze.

I missed this video when it was first posted, so I don't know if the following comparison is highlighted in it. But in the Batman: The Animated Series episode 'Bane' it's revealed that the DCAU Venom was created during Project Gilgamesh. In Batman & Robin Pamela Isley refers to Dr Woodrue's lab, where he develops Venom, as the 'Gilgamesh wing'. In the original script the room in which Woodrue turns Antonio Diego into Bane is called the 'Gilgamesh Chamber'. This obviously isn't a comic reference, but I thought it was worth mentioning. It seems too big a coincide for the legend of Gilgamesh to be linked to Bane's creation in both BTAS and the Schumacherverse. The moment where the newly transformed Bane breaks free of his restraints and attacks the guards also evokes his transformation in the BTAS episode.

Maybe we should have a separate thread about BTAS references in the Schumacher movies. Schumacher appears to have been heavily influenced by animation in general. Batman's entrance at the museum obviously references the opening sequence of The Flintstones.


Then there's the Shaggy graffiti during the motorcycle race.


And I strongly suspect Schumacher's Mr Freeze was influenced by the version from The New Adventures of Batman (1977) starring Adam West. I'll post more about that soon in a separate thread.