The End of Time Part One was pretty good. Nothing spectacular, but entertaining nonetheless. It was really just a set-up, and I expect Part Two to bring down the house. Can't wait to see the regeneration sequence and Matt Smith - who I think is going to be outstanding.
My misses is a Dr Who nut - so i have to watch it too.
watched Rivers of Mars last night and should be watching end of time part 1 tonight.
Quote from: ral on Mon, 28 Dec 2009, 11:30
My misses is a Dr Who nut - so i have to watch it too.
watched Rivers of Mars last night and should be watching end of time part 1 tonight.
It's The Waters of Mars, ral. ;)
Anyway, as the 9th Doctor would say - Fantastic!
Do you really think that Matt Smith is going to be as good as Tennant? I'm not so sure at the moment, but I'm sure the new doctor will grow on me once I've seen him.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 28 Dec 2009, 12:00
Do you really think that Matt Smith is going to be as good as Tennant?
Absolutely.
I was told by a friend a while back who has a fairly good source that word from the Doctor Who set is that Matt Smith is so amazing in the role and could well upstage Tennant quite quickly.
Even if Matt is undoubtedly better - which I think he will be, I doubt we?re going to see the die hard haters admit that. It seems to me some have already made up their mind, and no matter what comes next, it won?t measure up for them. I don't think they want it to. I'm sure there are people like that. Which is a shame.
Tennant was brilliant in the role and I think he had another few seasons left in him. But the fact is, he's gone. I am instead embracing reality and the future of this series, and I will fondly look back at Tennant?s contribution to the program.
Doctor Who is all about change. The series has survived this long, forty years or whatever. The series survived fine when Christopher Eccleston left. It will survive when David Tennant leaves. No matter how well received he has been.
People will embrace Smith if they want to continue watching the series. And I'm confident true Doctor Who fans will want to do that.
Anyway, I like Smith's look. I think his outfit works very well because while he is the youngest Doctor ever, he's dressed in rather old fashioned clothing. He himself and his fashion sense are still old. He looks like an authoritive teacher or something, but has a ton more energy to burn. I'm glad he kept the hairstyle as well.
Heard some audio of him on set, too. I liked what I heard. It sounds like he's really getting into character. Shouting, breaking words down into syllables and so on. I like the fact he's being all serious with the shouting, and he's still retaining a glint of eccentricity. The Doctor can emphasise anything he wants. He doesn't have to have a reason why, and he doesn't have to explain himself. He can do as he wishes.
I have a feeling he will become my favourite Doctor of them all. There's nothing to worry about and there's plenty to be excited about.
Well, I trust your word. To be honest it's not that I've got that many doubts about Matt Smith, it's just that I think Tennant will be a very hard act to follow. I was never that into Doctor Who before Tennant took on the role, although I am familiar enough with the other doctors to consider myself qualified to give an opinion, and I've got to say, Tennant is arguably the best doctor so far (with Tom Baker a close second).
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 28 Dec 2009, 12:37
Well, I trust your word.
Very wise.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Mon, 28 Dec 2009, 12:37To be honest it's not that I've got that many doubts about Matt Smith, it's just that I think Tennant will be a very hard act to follow.
Fair enough. I can safely say that Smith will not be doing a Tennant impersonation, as some people have stupidly claimed. Expect something quite different.
I'm looking foward to Tennent leaving. He is likeable but I get bored of his bi-polar antics (serious one minute and jumping around like a clown the next).
I gather Russell T Davis is leaving too? I am looking forward to this as well.
Quote from: ral on Mon, 28 Dec 2009, 16:47
I'm looking foward to Tennent leaving. He is likeable but I get bored of his bi-polar antics (serious one minute and jumping around like a clown the next).
Love Tennant and that sort of behaviour is integral to the character, but I get what you mean. I feel he's kind of a generic Doctor, blending and rolling in aspects from the past into one. If he did another series, I feel like I would've already seen all the episodes and what he has to offer.
Quote from: ral on Mon, 28 Dec 2009, 16:47
I gather Russell T Davis is leaving too?
Yes. New TARDIS, new logo, new title sequence, new sonic screwdriver, the lot.
EDIT:
Steven Moffat on Matt Smith from the latest Radio Times (2 - 8 January 2010).
Quote"Because Matt is the youngest actor to play the Doctor, people might be thinking they?ll get a ?young geezer? Doctor, but he isn?t. He?s restored the more professional aspect of the character - he?s very much the ?nutty professor? Doctor.
What I least expected from Matt, given the nature of the modern Doctor, is that at times he?s very quiet: the strong, quiet man. I suppose I thought instinctively that he?d be a leaping-about, loud Doctor, as we?ve got used to. Yet some of Matt?s most powerful moments are when he?s very, very quiet? very, very gentle, in a way that a very powerful person can be. There?s a scene I watched just recently in which he was chillingly good: a big confrontation-with-the-alien scene, and instead of playing it - as he could have - in a much more bombastic way, he was very quiet, very matter-of-fact, very simple. It?s all implied strength rather than demonstrated bluster.
Matt carries off the gravitas thing perfectly and has no difficulty at all in lording it over other people. He has scenes with Winston Churchill - in which he behaves like Winston Churchill?s dad! And you have no difficulty in buying that on-screen. And then of course he?ll behave like a complete spoilt child, which is what the Doctor has to do - to suddenly become a huge big kid.
He?s a terribly distinctive actor. And he has the most extraordinary face. He was born to play an alien, because it just doesn?t quite add up. He?ll hate me for saying this, but he looks like caricature of a hand-some man; it?s all just a bit to much: perfect profile, perfect jaw-line, extraordinary. And the camera adores him. So you?ll be seeing a lot of that face, suffering, in close-up, I tell you!"
Great article Dark Knight. I'm looking forward to a strong silent type Doctor Who. Sounds like the kind a 'Doctor' I'll probably be able to relate to on some level.
On a side note, I've just read that Tennant has been voted as the best Doctor Who of all time so far, with Tom Baker a close second. I guess the Dr Who fans have got good taste.
From the official site:
Quote"At 6.40pm on New Year's Day, The End of Time, Part Two begins and the Tenth Doctor's final adventure reaches an incredible finale. It's the end of an era and promises to be an unforgettable event.
Immediately after the episode finishes we'll have a wealth of exciting new material waiting for you right here! In a series of exclusive videos, David Tennant, Executive Producer and writer Russell T Davies and Executive Producer Julie Gardner tell us about The End of Time as well as the past five years, looking back on everything from guest stars to their first days on Doctor Who. There will be their last ever Big Questions, storyboards, a new Fact File, and a fantastic commentary with Russell T Davies and Julie Gardner. Plus a surprise or six!
But we'll also have tons of great stuff on the Eleventh Doctor! Get a sensational sneak peek of the new series and check out exclusive new videos... that's all on this site immediately after The End of Time, Part Two finishes."
Can't wait.
Just seen the new episode.
David Tennant, I salute you.
Matt Smith is going to find himself in the same predicament as Peter Davison. He has a VERY hard act to follow.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Fri, 1 Jan 2010, 02:42
On a side note, I've just read that Tennant has been voted as the best Doctor Who of all time so far, with Tom Baker a close second. I guess the Dr Who fans have got good taste.
I hate to disagree, but personally I favor Tom's Doctor over Tennant's performance( and Tennant was fantastic.)
I loved how David handled the regeneration.
He walks into the TARDIS obviously hurting due to the energy absorbsion, but his expression is stoic and brave. He takes off his jacket and throws it to the side, essentially rolling up his sleeves and saying alright, bring it on.
He looks at his glowing hand thoughtfully, considering his mortality, and puts it down. He walks to the console. Standing still, his composure is broken when reality sets in that he's going, and he doesn?t want to. Nevertheless, he breathes deeply in anticipation and is consumed.
The choral chanting was epic, tragic ands beautiful all at once. It elevated things to the required level. Also of note, right before the Doctor says "I don't want to go", the chorus is singing "Vale, vale, vale, vale" - which is Latin for "farewell". And the composition is actually called "Vale Decem" - meaning "Farewell Ten". Great stuff.
Anyway, over to Smith.
He has said his Doctor will be "less tolerant" than others before him.
And here's an official shot of Smith which was released a while ago:
http://whoismattsmith.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=4675&fullsize=1
Another shot of him featuring on a puzzle:
http://whoismattsmith.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=5152&fullsize=1
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Fri, 29 Jan 2010, 01:59
He has said his Doctor will be "less tolerant" than others before him.
'Less tolerant'? What does that mean? LOL. Is he going to be some type of intergalactic racist patrolling The Earth from any illegal 'aliens'?
I think it means he'll be more like Six or Nine and not suffer fools gladly. He won't love humanity the way Ten does. And when he does get angry, it'll probably be less "epic". I don't think he'll hit/shoot people unless it's a really dire emergency. I wouldn't be surprised if what we see in the trailer is pretty much the only violence the Doctor engages in this series.
Remind me. Who played six and nine? Thanks
Six was played by Colin Baker. Nine was played by Christopher Eccleston.
Bumping an old thread here, but I thought I'd restart some Doctor Who discussion.
I've seen all of the Matt Smith episodes and am enjoying the current era. I've seen most of Eccleston's run and a couple of Tennant's, but want to watch all of their stuff, too. Very interesting to compare the various takes on the character.
I'm also trying to watch the classic stuff. I recently saw "The Aztecs," one of the William Hartnell stories and so far, it's the best of the First Doctor stories I've seen. On its own, it's got the right dose of drama for all the characters, but in terms of impact on the series, this seems to be the first time that The Doctor brings up the issue of rewriting history (in this case, he argues against it).
It's also the first time he's been given a love interest (something that I didn't think happened until much later in the series) and one of the final moments, when Hartnell starts up the TARDIS alone, reminded me of the current DW stories that showed the character's loneliness.
Anyways, this was announced today:
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118046098
I'm not against a Doctor Who movie, but I can see why a movie with no ties to the past or current series could turn off the fans. We'll see what happens.
What does everyone else think?
I'm a fan of Dr Who...but not the way he's been written these past few years.
Has anyone seen the TV movie that starred Eric Roberts?
Quote from: Paul (ral) on Mon, 14 Nov 2011, 23:58
I'm a fan of Dr Who...but not the way he's been written these past few years.
Has anyone seen the TV movie that starred Eric Roberts?
I have. Paul McGann was very good as the Doctor, but the film felt a little too "American". There was still some classic Doctor Who vibe to it though.
On a side note I just received the Jon Pertwee episode "Terror of the Autons" for my birthday and am overjoyed as this episode has a rather significant importance for me: I wasn't hiding behind the sofa, it was more of a run down the hall screaming! One of my favorites now!
Overall I think Smith is the best of the new Doctors. I prefer his alien, awkward and closed off nature. And how old he feels. Moffat is miles better than RTD in my opinion as well. His two seasons have been more consistent and interesting to me. RTD ran the show into the ground in the end. Way too much soap opera and cringe. A suburban crying fest. Series 6 was arc heavy but that's what a serialised drama is. Hell, look at the classic series. As a Lost fan I am overjoyed at such tapestry, where you actually have to think. This is a show about space and time for crying out loud, and I feel as if that potential is being tapped into in a more creative fashion.
This is a very touchy subject for me. I first started watching Doctor Who when I was six years old. At that time the show had already been cancelled, the BBC was rerunning old episodes and nobody else seemed to care about it. I developed a passionate love for the show and began religiously collecting issues of the Dr Who magazine, the novelizations, the VHS releases, the toys, and pretty much every other badge, postcard, calendar, annual, TV guide or other product related to the Doctor Who franchise. I spent years trying to collect every single Doctor Who story on VHS. At the age of 14, I was having discontinued videos imported from Australia at a cost of around £40 each (which is a lot of money when you're fourteen). I created several Doctor Who fan sites, actively participated in the online fan community, and regularly bombarded the BBC with letters from fake email accounts telling them to bring the show back. I used to attend Doctor Who conventions whenever I could, even though I was usually the only kid there, since the show had been off the air for so long that all the others fans had grown up. I wrote my own Doctor Who books, comics and scripts. I was even the subject of a short newspaper article, where me and Colin Baker were interviewed and photographed together. I was the biggest Doctor Who fan in the world. And when I was in my late teens I finally completed my collection of Doctor Who videos, having tracked down copies of every single surviving story.
And in case anyone was wondering where my username comes from...
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tower.com%2Fimages%2Fmm108983974%2Fdoctor-who-silver-nemesis-sylvester-mccoy-vhs-cover-art.jpg&hash=166f8d24ddddf70993c93ca8b8c112ba8a1c45c1)
Needless to say, I was thrilled when I heard the show was coming back in 2005. I'd campaigned for years to get the BBC to bring it back, and finally they were doing it.
But then I watched the first season. And my love turned to hatred.
I now despise Doctor Who with a passion. The 2005 revival was an abomination! What had once been the greatest TV show ever made was reduced to a turgid, dumbed-downed, politically correct soap opera for the I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here! generation. The Doctor's characterisation changed from that of a highly intelligent Edwardian scientist to a catchphrase-spouting cretin who played second fiddle to Billie Piper. The show that had once dealt with scientific concepts such as cybernetics, entropy and temporal paradoxes, was now dealing with anti-plastic, slightly-psychic-paper and farting aliens. The cheaply realised by imaginatively conceived alien worlds of Gallifrey and Skaro were now replaced with London council estates and the streets of Cardiff. But worst of all, everyone else seemed to love it. And it was just me, the diehard fan who'd been waiting for years for the show to return, who got left out in the cold.
Honestly, what George Lucas did to Star Wars with The Phantom Menace was nothing compared to what Russell T Davies did to Doctor Who.
People keep telling me the show's gotten better in recent years. But I still refuse to watch it. As James Cameron said when asked if he'd return to the Terminator franchise: 'the soup's been pissed in.' And for me there's no going back. Since 2005, I've moved on to others areas of geekdom (Star Wars, The X-Files, Star Trek, etc). But I'm happy to discuss the original REAL series with anyone who wants.
QuoteHas anyone seen the TV movie that starred Eric Roberts?
At the time it seemed pretty awful. Though compared to the 2005 revival, it now looks like a masterpiece. I was lucky enough to meet Sylvester McCoy at a train station the year it came out (an incredibly nice man, btw) and even then, just a few months after the movie had been broadcast, there was talk of them making an episode where McCoy wakes up in the TARDIS and realises the whole thing was a bad dream.
I'm still waiting for them to make that episode. :( They could explain away the whole 2005- series as a bad cheese dream.
QuoteI'm also trying to watch the classic stuff. I recently saw "The Aztecs," one of the William Hartnell stories and so far, it's the best of the First Doctor stories I've seen.
I'm glad you've been watching the William Hartnell stories, BatmAngelus. I always liked Hartnell, and even more so now since his Doctor is the antithesis of the modern version. The Aztecs was one of his best stories, and one of the best purely historical serials in the show's history. One of the many things I hated about the new series was Russell T Davies' proclamation there'd be no purely historical stories anymore. I love the sci-fi adventures as much as the next person, but there was something special about the purely historical stories, where the adversaries would be real historical figures instead of aliens.
QuoteOn a side note I just received the Jon Pertwee episode "Terror of the Autons" for my birthday and am overjoyed as this episode has a rather significant importance for me: I wasn't hiding behind the sofa, it was more of a run down the hall screaming! One of my favorites now!
Terror of the Autons is a classic. It was the story that introduced the Master (though some fans speculate the Warlord from The War Games may have been an earlier incarnation of the Master) and Jo Grant. Robert Holmes was probably the single best Doctor Who writer of all time. Apparently the BBC got a lot of complaints about this story when it first aired, specifically because of the scene where the doll comes to life and kills someone. A lot of kids were freaked out by that. Personally, I thought the scene with the Auton hiding in the safe was more frightening.
QuoteI'm not against a Doctor Who movie, but I can see why a movie with no ties to the past or current series could turn off the fans. We'll see what happens.
It's been done before. Back in the sixties Amicus Studios remade two of the serials into feature movies starring Peter Cushing: Dr. Who and the Daleks (1965) and Daleks' Invasion Earth: 2150 AD (1966). In the movie canon his name is Dr. Who, as opposed to just The Doctor. And he's a human who built the TARDIS in a laboratory. They're fun films, though a little goofy compared the main series. There have been countless efforts to make more movies, but none of them ever got off the ground. Perhaps this one will.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 15 Nov 2011, 05:26
Overall I think Smith is the best of the new Doctors. I prefer his alien, awkward and closed off nature. And how old he feels.
Agreed. Ever since The Eleventh Hour, I've loved his eccentric genius take and how unpredictable he can be. At times, he can be a complete goofball, like the episodes with Craig/James Corden. Other times, he's fully in control and feels like he's been saving up his darker, ruthless side for the right occasions (the confrontation with The Silence in 1969 as well as his threat to Colonel "Runaway" this season come to mind).
I hope he stays on for awhile.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 15 Nov 2011, 14:42
And in case anyone was wondering where my username comes from...
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tower.com%2Fimages%2Fmm108983974%2Fdoctor-who-silver-nemesis-sylvester-mccoy-vhs-cover-art.jpg&hash=166f8d24ddddf70993c93ca8b8c112ba8a1c45c1)
Aha! I actually read the episode name awhile ago, but forgot to ask you about the connection.
QuotePeople keep telling me the show's gotten better in recent years. But I still refuse to watch it. As James Cameron said when asked if he'd return to the Terminator franchise: 'the soup's been pissed in.' And for me there's no going back. Since 2005, I've moved on to others areas of geekdom (Star Wars, The X-Files, Star Trek, etc). But I'm happy to discuss the original REAL series with anyone who wants.
I'm very sorry to hear about your feelings on this, but I completely understand. I look forward to discussing more of the classic series with you here since I plan to watch all of the available classic DW episodes at some point.
Just curious, Silver Nemesis, have you distanced yourself from all new DW media or just the revived series? Because I've heard great things about the Big Finish Audio Productions with the classic Who actors. (By the way, Big Finish does not have the rights to the revived series, so there are no crossovers to the Russell Davies reboot).
I also read the other day about a Sixth Doctor comic by Grant Morrison, which revealed that the Cybermen were evolved from the Voord and that Mondas was actually Marinus (The canonicity is questionable, but I wasn't surprised that Morrison would do this, considering that he's the same writer who turned the unnamed scientist of Robin Dies At Dawn into a major Batman supervillain).
QuoteIt's been done before. Back in the sixties Amicus Studios remade two of the serials into feature movies starring Peter Cushing: Dr. Who and the Daleks (1965) and Daleks' Invasion Earth: 2150 AD (1966). In the movie canon his name is Dr. Who, as opposed to just The Doctor. And he's a human who built the TARDIS in a laboratory. They're fun films, though a little goofy compared the main series. There have been countless efforts to make more movies, but none of them ever got off the ground. Perhaps this one will.
Ah, yes, I've heard of those and was planning to watch the first one soon (I want to hold off on the second one until I see The Dalek Invasion of Earth). From the trailer alone, it's rather surreal to see a 1960s remake of the first Daleks story arc with a different cast and in color, no less!
QuoteI'm glad you've been watching the William Hartnell stories, BatmAngelus. I always liked Hartnell, and even more so now since his Doctor is the antithesis of the modern version. The Aztecs was one of his best stories, and one of the best purely historical serials in the show's history. One of the many things I hated about the new series was Russell T Davies' proclamation there'd be no purely historical stories anymore. I love the sci-fi adventures as much as the next person, but there was something special about the purely historical stories, where the adversaries would be real historical figures instead of aliens.
That is true, I can't think of a single episode in the revived series that's set in the past and
doesn't have an alien antagonist/guest star in addition to the historical guest star. It's sad that the Marco Polo episodes have been lost, since I found the whole idea of Marco Polo holding the TARDIS hostage to be fascinating.
What I loved about The Aztecs is that they didn't need to bring in any creatures or alien guests. It was all character conflicts- The history teacher attempts to change history by forcing the Aztecs to stop human sacrifice. The high school science teacher has his work cut out for him when he has to duel a trained and experienced Aztec warrior. The young Susan nearly falls victim to how the old civilization treated marriage and punished people who spoke out against tradition. And, of course, the reclusive Doctor develops a fondness for a woman who adores him, but must stay behind in her own timeline.
In general, I think the First Doctor's era is fascinating to watch because this is where it all began. There's no previous show history or past Doctors to fall back onto. The Doctor himself is as much of a mystery as the alien planets they encounter. The only evidence so far that he's an alien is when his granddaughter says in the first episode that they're from another time and another world. The terms Time Lord or Gallifrey haven't been incorporated yet. There's no regeneration, no two hearts, no sonic screwdriver.
The First Doctor himself is hardly a genius, he's always making mistakes (one that nearly costs Ian his life in The Aztecs) and requires his younger companions to take on the physical action. And yet, Hartnell's Doctor still has the eccentricity, the cleverness, the humor, and occasional ruthlessness that we'd see in all the later Doctors.
The show itself seems to have started out as more of an ensemble (though Ian does most of the fighting and investigating), which brings me to the supporting cast. Aside from being the very first companions, Ian, Barbara, and Susan are perhaps the most important companions in the entire series. With Susan, it's obvious- she's The Doctor's granddaughter and, in the earlier episodes, she brings out a softer side to him. It's rare to come across anyone from The Doctor's family in the series (though I know it's been explored in comics, novels, audiobooks, etc.), so I've always seen her as a special part of the mythos.
As for Ian and Barbara, it was natural for us to see a science teacher and a history teacher wind up in the TARDIS, with their adventures in space and time challenging their expertise. But there's more to it than that.
The Doctor goes from despising them in the first episode to genuinely caring about them. They prove to The Doctor that the human race is not to be looked down upon. That humans are just as smart and capable as he is and are worth defending. Ian, in particular, is the man of action- always trying to figure out solutions and speaking out to defend what he feels is right.
I'd like to think that The Doctor, in some ways, was inspired by these two and took on their qualities for himself, forming the more heroic and active Doctor that would carry the series through the years.
QuoteJust curious, Silver Nemesis, have you distanced yourself from all new DW media or just the revived series? Because I've heard great things about the Big Finish Audio Productions with the classic Who actors. (By the way, Big Finish does not have the rights to the revived series, so there are no crossovers to the Russell Davies reboot).
I pretty much severed all ties to the franchise after 2005. But before then, I was a big fan of the Big Finish productions and had corresponded with some of the production staff. I've still got most of them on CD somewhere. They're very good as I recall. It was especially nice that they gave Colin Baker a chance to shine. He'd mostly been saddled with bad scripts when playing the Doctor on television (a big exception being Revelation of the Daleks, which was awesome). But the audio dramas allowed him to approach the character as he'd originally intended, and I remember one year he was even voted the most popular Doctor by readers of the DW Magazine. But I haven't followed the Big Finish dramas since 2005.
QuoteI also read the other day about a Sixth Doctor comic by Grant Morrison, which revealed that the Cybermen were evolved from the Voord and that Mondas was actually Marinus (The canonicity is questionable, but I wasn't surprised that Morrison would do this, considering that he's the same writer who turned the unnamed scientist of Robin Dies At Dawn into a major Batman supervillain).
I vaguely remember reading that story, but I'm pretty sure it isn't canonical. The Sixth Doctor comics were generally really weird and inconsistent with the direction the TV show was taking at the time. Morrison wasn't a well known writer back then. A lot of young British comic writers, including Alan Moore, cut their teeth writing for the Doctor Who comics. The results were very hit and miss. And the Sixth Doctor comics were, for the most part, misses.
Out of interest, have you seen The Keys of Marinus? It's a brilliant story. I'd rank it alongside The Aztecs, The Romans and The Chase as one of the best Hartnell stories.
QuoteAh, yes, I've heard of those and was planning to watch the first one soon (I want to hold off on the second one until I see The Dalek Invasion of Earth). From the trailer alone, it's rather surreal to see a 1960s remake of the first Daleks story arc with a different cast and in color, no less!
They're very trippy and slightly camp. But they're also a lot of fun and have production values far beyond those of the TV series. I actually think the movie of Daleks' Invasion Earth: 2150 AD is much better than the TV serial on which it was based. The story is all about Earth being invaded, but they never convincingly conveyed an adequate sense of scale in the original serial. Not even with the added CGI effects on the DVD release. The best they could do was show a couple of Daleks crossing Westminster Bridge. Whereas in the movie they show some impressive battles between the Daleks and the human resistance fighters. The special effects were quite good for the time too.
I agree with everything you say about The Aztecs and the Hartnell era in general. Back then the series had a good balance between plot and character development. And that in turn allowed the stories to explore serious themes concerning the moral implications of time travel. The emotional and psychological interplay between the TARDIS crewmembers yielded some real character development as the series progressed.
I'd argue that the Hartnell Doctor underwent more character development than most of the other Doctors combined. In the first three serials he's very much an anti-hero. In An Unearthly Child he kidnaps Ian and Barbara against their will. Later in the story he almost bludgeons an injured caveman to death with a rock. There's a scene in the Terrence Dicks novel The Eight Doctors where the Paul McGann Doctor travels back to that scene and has to talk his earlier incarnation out of killing the caveman. It just shows how drastically the character changed over time.
Then in The Daleks he lies to his companions about the fluid link's mercury supply being depleted so they'll have to let him explore the city. That selfish act leads to everyone getting captured by the Daleks and contaminated with radiation poisoning. And in The Edge of Destruction he outright tries to jettison Ian and Barbara into the space/time vortex when he wrongly suspects them of mutiny. It's only at the end of that story, when he realises his error, that he finally starts to appreciate the value of his human companions and begins to defrost emotionally.
As far as historical stories go, the last purely historical one was the Peter Davison story Black Orchid. All the others after that point featured aliens or other sci-fi elements. But the best historical adventures were during the Hartnell era. If you haven't already seen it, you should check out The Romans. It's more tongue in cheek than The Aztecs, but is still a terrific story. The fight scenes in it were choreographed by Peter Diamond, who also plays a slave that Ian befriends and later has to fight when they're both trained as gladiators. Later in his career, Diamond went on to choreograph all the lightsaber duels in the original Star Wars trilogy. He also coordinated the stunt work on Superman II, Raiders of the Lost Ark and the Highlander films (he also played Fasil, the first opponent Connor Macleod fights in the first Highlander film). So there're some fun action scenes in it.
Just out of interest, do you have any favourite stories from the original 1963-1989 series? This question applies to anyone who's a fan of the show. I'd be interested to know which eras people like the best.
QuoteI pretty much severed all ties to the franchise after 2005. But before then, I was a big fan of the Big Finish productions and had corresponded with some of the production staff. I've still got most of them on CD somewhere. They're very good as I recall. It was especially nice that they gave Colin Baker a chance to shine. He'd mostly been saddled with bad scripts when playing the Doctor on television (a big exception being Revelation of the Daleks, which was awesome). But the audio dramas allowed him to approach the character as he'd originally intended, and I remember one year he was even voted the most popular Doctor by readers of the DW Magazine. But I haven't followed the Big Finish dramas since 2005.
Ah, cool, I had heard that about Colin Baker, too, when I was at Comikaze. I'll definitely check out his stories in Big Finish, as well as Paul McGann's, when I get the chance.
QuoteOut of interest, have you seen The Keys of Marinus? It's a brilliant story. I'd rank it alongside The Aztecs, The Romans and The Chase as one of the best Hartnell stories.
Yep. I've been slowly watching the available Doctor Who series in order (so it'll probably take me a long time to answer your question about which classic era was my favorite).
Before Aztecs, Marinus was my favorite of the Hartnell era. To add to your analysis on the First Doctor- the fact that he steps in to defend Ian on trial says a ton about how far their relationship had evolved.
I'll let you know what I think of The Romans and The Chase when I get to them.
How about you, Silver Nemesis, do you have a favorite era and favorite Doctor?
QuoteI'll definitely check out his stories in Big Finish, as well as Paul McGann's, when I get the chance.
Paul McGann's TV movie was disappointing, but he acquitted himself in the Big Finnish audio dramas. It's best to listen to his stories in the correct order, as they follow a story arc rather than being standalone adventures. The other Doctors' stories can be listened to in any order though.
If you do get any of the Big Finish dramas be sure to let me know what you think of them. I'd be interested to know how you feel they hold up compared to the TV episodes and whether you think some Doctors work better on the radio than television (especially Baker).
QuoteHow about you, Silver Nemesis, do you have a favorite era and favorite Doctor?
That's a tough one. I like pretty much all of the original series.
When I was kid I liked the Jon Pertwee era best. My all time favourite story was The Sea Devils, and there were plenty of other classics from that period that I would rewatch on an almost weekly basis: Spearhead From Space, The Silurians, Inferno, Terror of the Autons, The Daemons, The Curse of Peladon, Carnival of Monsters, Frontier in Space/Planet of the Daleks (essentially one epic 12-part story spread over two serials), The Green Death, The Time Warrior and Death to the Daleks were all superb.
Peter Davison was in my opinion the weakest of the original seven Doctors. Having said that, he still had some great stories like Kinda, Enlightenment and The Five Doctors. Earthshock is probably the second best Cybermen story after Tomb of the Cybermen. And The Caves of Androzani is arguably the greatest Doctor Who story from any era. If you haven't already seen that one, then you're in for a real treat when you do. The villain – Sharez Jek – never appeared in any other serials. But I'd still rank him alongside Davros and the Master as one of the greatest Dr Who villains ever.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fdoctorwho%2Fclassic%2Fepisodeguide%2Foohum%2Fimages%2Frobots-caves.jpg&hash=3544b0750c8636f79e27536e4ce54215562a5551)
Overall, I'd say Hartnell and McCoy are my favourite Doctors. But my favourite eras in terms of stories would be the Hartnell and Pertwee seasons.
^ I'll definitely check those out. Thanks for the suggestions :)
Today, they released the title of the Christmas Special, The Doctor, The Widow and the Wardrobe, along with a trailer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/news/bulletin_111119_02/The_Christmas_Special_The_Doctor_The_Widow_and_The_Wardrobe
It seems like this will be a sci-fi take on a Narnia-type world, much like last year's Christmas Special was a Doctor Who twist on A Christmas Carol.
Did anyone catch this year's Christmas Special?
I thought it was alright, but last year's was much better. I found this one rather slow through most of the story, mainly 'cause it was hard to tell what was going on for the first half and there wasn't a ton of conflict until we got to the middle of it. The last 10-15 minutes, though, were great and it was hard not to get teary-eyed over Madge and Reg's love story.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Tue, 27 Dec 2011, 18:34
I thought it was alright, but last year's was much better.
Agreed.
I went to the Gallifrey One convention here in Los Angeles on Saturday. I wasn't able to do all three days, though in hindsight I wish I had. The guest Doctor was Paul McGann and his co-stars from the movie, Daphne Ashbrook, Yee Jee Seo, and Eric Roberts, were there as well.
It was rather fun. My main regret was that my friend and I missed out on taking a picture with a replica of the 1996 TARDIS console, which would've been really cool. The photoshoot was from 12-1 and we missed getting in the door by a good minute.
Attendees also had the opportunity to get free autographs from a select group of people, including McGann himself, so I decided to use this as an excuse to buy one of the Big Finish audios with the Eighth Doctor. Due to the multi-Doctor nature of it, I picked up Zagreus (which also has Peter Davison, Colin Baker, and Sylvester McCoy) so I could use it for future autographs in case I go to conventions that feature Davison, Baker, or McCoy (or even the companion co-stars).
McGann signed it (and was quite excited upon seeing it, proclaiming "ZAGREUS!"), along with Louise Jameson a.k.a. Leela, who asked if I had heard it yet. (The others in the autograph group were Phil Segal, producer of the 1996 movie, and Yee Jee Tso, who was Chang Lee in the movie).
After the convention, I went on the Big Finish website and saw that Blood of the Daleks Part 1- McGann's first episode with companion Lucie Miller- was available to download for free until Sunday to lead into their big sale of the Eighth Doctor audios this week. I couldn't resist, so I downloaded that and bought Blood of the Daleks Part 2 the next day to have the complete story.
Overall, I've liked what I've heard. Definitely better Who stories than the 1996 movie to give McGann a chance to shine.
Zagreus was a bit confusing at first since I hadn't listened to the previous episodes with Charley Pollard (I should've listened to Silver Nemesis here and heard these in order...), but the final disc, where the plot threads came together, was quite good and it was a treat to hear the 5th, 6th, and 7th Doctors interacting with the 8th.
I enjoyed Blood of the Daleks as well, though it was less of an epic story, and it was a bit of a treat to hear Hayley Atwell as the villain before she hit it big with Captain America last year.
Next up, I bought Neverland (yes, I'm going backwards since Zagreus is the sequel to this) and will be watching the webcasts of Shada (with the Eighth Doctor) and Real Time (with the Sixth Doctor) on the BBC website. I'm most interested in the Big Finish/additional adventures of the Sixth and Eighth Doctors, since I know the Sixth Doctor gets better stories and a better characterization in the Big Finish audios and the Eighth Doctor got a proper set of adventures past the '96 movie.
I remember reading about Gallifrey One conventions in the Dr Who magazine. They always looked pretty huge.
I never heard Zagreus though. The last audio drama I listened to before renouncing my fandom was Neverland. So I never found out what happened after the cliff-hanger ending.
That's awesome that you met Paul McGann. As you know, I'm an ex-Who fan. But of all the living Doctors, he's definitely the one I'd most like to meet. He was brilliant in Withnail & I. And Alien 3, while inferior to the first two films, is still a heck of a lot better than those dreadful Alien vs. Predator movies. Especially the extended cut, which features an interesting subplot about McGann's character trying to befriend the Alien. It's interesting that Eric 'Maroni' Roberts was there too. In the past he didn't attend conventions. He must've had a change of heart in recent years.
I was at a convention at the weekend too. I arrived late and missed out on meeting Colin Baker.
I did get to walk past Michael Biehn as he was leaving though :D
Michael "come with me if you want to live" Biehn?! That must've been awesome! I met Colin Baker when I was 10, and he and I were photographed and interviewed together for a newspaper article. Nice guy. But Michael Biehn! That man's a legend!
I'm disappointed he isn't appearing in The Expendables II though. There were rumours last year that he was going to be in it, but apparently Stallone never approached him. It's a shame, because between The Terminator, Aliens and The Rock, he's more than earned his dues.
I wish I had gotten to the convention earlier, it would have been nice to chat with Kyle Reese!
Well, Doctor Who has returned and the season premiere, Asylum of the Daleks, was...quite odd, but enjoyable (which is probably a good way of summing up the whole series). Not the best episode, but certainly one of the better Dalek ones in Matt Smith's run. I liked the ending but I doubt that will stay as the status quo with the Daleks. Plus, I'm very curious what they have in mind for the next companion, post-Amy & Rory. I guess we'll see.
I'm an unabashed Series 6 Fan (or Series 32, if you prefer). To be honest, I came to Who late--right after the Davies series began in 2005, though I didn't really grab it until a few years ago via Netflix. Thankfully, Netflix streaming has quite a few Who episodes from the past, and I've seen quite a few. Peter Davison's swan song, portions of 'The Key of Time,' the first Third doctor episode (sorry the titles aren't fresh in my mind) and The Pirate Planet. While they were enjoyable, I will admit that the aesthetic took quite a while to warm up to. I teach multi-camera video production, and the three-camera video aesthetic took a while to get used to. Which is odd, as I love the BBC version of Sherlock Holmes with Wilmer/Cushing. Anyway.
My 7 Year old's favorite Who seems to be Paul McGann (he loves the version of The Master who can posses people). I like McGann very much, but I won't claim to find that particular outing to be strong either in terms of narrative or aesthetic values. I know he found additional popularity through the radio programs and his likeness being used in any number of comic books and novels based on the Who-verse.
Of the recent Who series, Series 6 is my favorite, followed by Series 1, though there is a ton of excellent material in between.
Series 7 finally, finally, made the Daleks scary again (so far), something I haven't felt since we met the first Dalek in the NuWhoverse all the way back during S1. I'm curious to see where they go with this. Moffat tends to have more 'fun' than Davies with the program (ie Dinosaurs on a Spaceship next week), so as long as they tell cracking good tales without sacrificing strong characterizations I'm all in.
What'd you think of Dinosaurs on a Spaceship?
I liked it better than I thought I would, since I wasn't sure how it would balance so many ideas and characters. I will say that I give credit to Moffat for his ambition in making every episode of this season "feel like a blockbuster movie." (paraphrasing).
But I can't help but feel that things have been a bit rushed and crammed in this season.
Rory's dad, for instance. Did they forget that The Doctor showed up at Amy and Rory's wedding? Was Brian Williams just not there to have seen The Doctor and the TARDIS? (Which is unlikely. His relationship with Rory didn't seem THAT strained in this episode).
Anyways, it's still been a fun couple of episodes.
Like you I enjoyed it quite a bit. It's difficult not to be immediately sucked into such a concept though. The delight both The Doctor and Smith (in the portrayal) expressed felt incredibly child-like, genuine, and infectious. I also questioned Dad's Doctor Amnesia--but it wasn't much of a sticking point.
I'm also enjoying the season, but I see the trepidation. We want great stories and characters. Effects are lovely and all, but Doctor Who is not an effect (so says the original 26 years). But I'm all in. My 7 and 5 year-olds love it. :)
Thought The Gunslinger was 'Cowboys and Aliens' done well. It used several well known western plot devices and turned them in on themselves, but honestly could have gone a bit further with that. I do like that there was a complex relationship between the Two Doctors as they are very much mirrors for each other, as well as the realization that The Doctor without companions is easily lost and reverts back to his more warrior Time War instincts.
A good episode, but not necessarily a great one.
I think "A Town Called Mercy" was the best Season 7 episode so far. Both Asylum and Dinosaurs felt rushed for me, but the pacing here was much better, in my opinion. It wasn't flawless, but I feel like it's put the show back on track.
Does it seem weird how Amy had just caught onto the fact that The Doctor kills? Earlier this season, he took out the Daleks in the Asylum and he left Solomon to get blown up.
I think in both Asylum and in Dinosaurs, there was a bit of turning the villain's plan onto themselves. An 'us or them' paradox. In the case of 'Mercy,' it was the apparent execution of an unarmed man. It's never really been stated (or observed, in fact) that the Doctor does not kill. But he doesn't kill unless there seems to be a close-to-airtight justification for it. Here it seemed to be lacking, especially with how docile the 'alien doctor' was behaving. I can buy Amy having this reaction as The Alien Doctor seemed to be repaying his debt by keeping the town disease free and safe.
Love Doctor Who too (classic and modern). However my interest in the series began to wane in 2010. For me there has been a 2 year drought period of pretty crap stories and characters.
The current series however has restored my faith. It's event tv again for me. Still not great as it used to be but it's on the mend. I never liked Amy and Rory. Glad their going and I know already Jenna Louise Coleman will be miles better. If only they had Rory's dad straight from the word go. Things might have been different in my appreciation of those Ponds. Too late now.
If the Ponds are goners I really think it is time to ditch River Song also. She was WAY too intrusive last year. I'd hate her coming in and creating confusion with a new companion next year.
Quote from: Bobthegoon89 on Mon, 17 Sep 2012, 15:56
I really think it is time to ditch River Song also. She was WAY too intrusive last year. I'd hate her coming in and creating confusion with a new companion next year.
Disagree. She's my favourite non Doctor character and Alex Kingston is gorgeous. :P
Yeah, I think Series 6 is some of the best NuWho, in great part due to River's character development. I thought it was a terrific season long arc, and substantially better than most of Series 5.
That said, there are very few recent Who episodes I would skip upon revisiting the series. Oh, I'd skip any Slyveen episodes and Love and Monsters. Maybe a few others. But over all, there is very little I'm not enjoying. Even on its weakest day it's stronger than nearly all of American television (save for series such as Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Louie, Booth at the End on Hulu--we'll call these a draw for now).
Not sure how to post about Angels in Manhattan without giving major (as Dr. Song would have it) 'spoilers.' My initial reaction is heartbreak. I haven't been keeping up with any scuttlebutt, so I didn't realize this episode would have major events take place within them. I guess it was handled quite well, though I would rather have a happier ending for our companions. Still, terrific and scary episode.
I'm not sure how I feel about it. The emotion was certainly there and it was interesting to see these as the end of each of their character arcs. Rory's multiple resurrections gave him the courage to risk it all on the rooftop and Amy's final act proved Rory's "The truth of our relationship is, I love you more than you love me" (line from Asylum of the Daleks) completely wrong. It certainly completes the growth of the relationship. Contrast Amy and Rory with their introductions in The Eleventh Hour, when she refused to even acknowledge he was her boyfriend and ran off with the Doctor at the end to delay from having to marry Rory.
As much as I love the Weeping Angels, the ep also feels as if Moffat forgot the rules he established in "Blink." As emotional as the final graveyard scene was...it just doesn't seem possible for the Angel to have done that with all those people looking in its direction. I also felt it was kinda cheap to do a fakeout farewell scene only to immediately follow up with the real farewell scene. And the ending, with River's promise and the final shot, opens up a ton of plot questions, timeline-wise.
Curious about the Christmas Special now that we've got a recently traumatized Doctor, who will be going up against, technically, another Doctor- Richard E. Grant, the Doctor from the animated webseries Scream of Shalka!
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 17 Sep 2012, 23:32
Quote from: Bobthegoon89 on Mon, 17 Sep 2012, 15:56
I really think it is time to ditch River Song also. She was WAY too intrusive last year. I'd hate her coming in and creating confusion with a new companion next year.
Disagree. She's my favourite non Doctor character and Alex Kingston is gorgeous. :P
I find her irritating with all her flirting and such with The Doctor lol And her constant sucking up to him as being "the greatest man in the universe" kind of thing. Talk about pretentious. The critics and public seem to be getting fed up of her too. My family boo her everytime she appears on screen with the "Hello Sweetie" line ;D
Either way I think the end has been set in motion for Dr Song. In "Angels Take Manhattan" it has been established she's now a Professor. So it's only a matter of time before she jets off to The Library planet and meets her end. I'm interested in seeing that kind of story as it would be great to have a prequel to the David Tennant tale "Silence in the Library". Maybe they could go so far as returning a few of those other characters from that story.
Thank goodness this year it felt more like "Doctor Who" again and less "The River Song Odyssey".
Now I have a reason to post here. My wife an I have been burning through all of NuWho since late September, thanks to it all being on Netflix streaming (series 7 we had to find via not so legal means). All in all I have to agree with what Gregg said, series 6 is most definitively my favorite. While Tennant is still my favorite Doctor (don't they say your first is always your favorite?), I think Moffat is a better writer than RTD, havign written my favorite episodes of all of NuWho. And I freaking love River Song.
As for "The Snowmen" itself, I was actually kind of disappointed, because the resolution at the end was just way to easy and well cheesy. I know this happens sometimes with Doctor Who, but it was a little hard to swallow. I think another 30-45 minutes to the story would've helped the resolution quite a bit. That said I loved all the set-up and explanation of the Doctor's retirement, and I'm really interested in the resolution of the new companion's storyline. I think my favorite of the Christmas Specials is "A Christmas Carol", since well a) it actually feels "Christmasy", and b) it features all of the weird time travel paradoxes that I enjoy about the Doctor.
^ I agree that the resolution was lacking and the Snowmen, in general, were a bit disappointing, mainly 'cause I'd hoped we'd actually hear them speak in Ian McKellen's voice. But he was the giant snowglobe instead. I thought the endings of Moffat's other Christmas Specials were far better, with Christmas Carol being my overall favorite special as well.
Still, there were some great scenes in The Snowmen that made up for the weaker plot. The comic relief with Strax. The "one word" test ending with "Pond." The Sherlock Holmes scene. The moments with the bowtie. The reveal of the new TARDIS.
Can't wait to see the next part of the season!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXqXZepqgMQ
This years special was a massive improvement on last years tripe special. I can forgive it's plot flaws after that mess of 2011 lol And not an Amy or Rory in sight...even better!
Really enjoyed the Christmas special this year, and the new opening. It recalls some of the previous ones (of course) that included seeing the performer's face in the credits.
I'm quite excited to see The Doctor return in the spring. Truth be told, I enjoyed the Ponds, I will still revisit nearly every episode with them, but their time had come. First half of Series 7 holds up on review. Can't wait to see what else pops out. The teaser looks promising. I've always enjoyed the creatures that haunt the Who-verse, and it seems quite a few of them will be lurking in the upcoming episodes.
I thought I'd resurrect this thread since the show returns tonight and we got hit with some pretty big news:
David Tennant and Billie Piper are returning as the Tenth Doctor and Rose Tyler for the 50th Anniversary Special in November:
http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/david-tennant-billie-piper-return-for-50th-46845.htm
I can't wait to see Tennant and Smith play off each other. The big question: will this be the 10th Doctor and Rose from Season 2 or is this the Meta-Crisis Half-Human Doctor and Rose from the parallel universe in Season 4?
The great John Hurt also has joined the cast, with some fans speculating that he could be playing a past incarnation of The Doctor to replace one of the late actors, much like Richard Hurndall filling in for William Hartnell in The Five Doctors. But I think it's more likely he's a new character, possibly the villain. I'm sure we'll hear more news in the coming weeks as production is starting up.
Really looking forward to this 50th anniversary special.
I could launch into a long winded reasoning, but simply put, I prefer Smith over Tennant. Both are good, though.
I hope the 10th Doctor is THE 10th Doctor at some point in his timeline and not the meta-human.
I can't wait to see David and Matt together either. I also think it will be the actual 10th Doctor, but it would be cool to see them together no matter what they do.
And FWIW, I enjoyed the heck out of "The Bells of St. John" tonight. :)
Quote from: ElCuervoMuerto on Sun, 31 Mar 2013, 04:03
I can't wait to see David and Matt together either. I also think it will be the actual 10th Doctor, but it would be cool to see them together no matter what they do.
Absolutely. These two together is going to be a classic moment in Who history, no matter. For this generation of fans, these two guys are it.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 31 Mar 2013, 00:17
Really looking forward to this 50th anniversary special.
I could launch into a long winded reasoning, but simply put, I prefer Smith over Tennant. Both are good, though.
I hope the 10th Doctor is THE 10th Doctor at some point in his timeline and not the meta-human.
Agreed completely.
Plus I think it'd be much simpler to explain that the 10th Doctor and Rose got taken out of their timeline (like the past multi-Doctor specials) as opposed to saying "Rose crossed over from a parallel Earth along with a half-human clone of my past incarnation who also shares DNA from another one of my past companions..."
The Bells of St. John was a fun start. I loved figuring out what the title of the episode meant. Also, the motorcycle ride up the building was cooler than most movie moments I saw in theaters last year.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sat, 30 Mar 2013, 22:53
I thought I'd resurrect this thread since the show returns tonight and we got hit with some pretty big news:
David Tennant and Billie Piper are returning as the Tenth Doctor and Rose Tyler for the 50th Anniversary Special in November:
http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/david-tennant-billie-piper-return-for-50th-46845.htm
I can't wait to see Tennant and Smith play off each other. The big question: will this be the 10th Doctor and Rose from Season 2 or is this the Meta-Crisis Half-Human Doctor and Rose from the parallel universe in Season 4?
The great John Hurt also has joined the cast, with some fans speculating that he could be playing a past incarnation of The Doctor to replace one of the late actors, much like Richard Hurndall filling in for William Hartnell in The Five Doctors. But I think it's more likely he's a new character, possibly the villain. I'm sure we'll hear more news in the coming weeks as production is starting up.
Yeah absolutely delighted with this news myself. I always knew we'd see Tennant again but it's still a strange thing when it's officially announced. It feels like the 10th Doctor era was an eternity ago (despite only being a few years) and to have that returning is very very exciting. Hugely surprised that Billie Piper is coming back also. Despite what some have argued (wanting Donna instead) I think it's highly appropriate she is there. She's still for me the best and most memorable modern series companion and we are meant to be celebrating the best of 50 years of Dr Who. So why not? I don't think Moffatt will cop out and have the meta-crisis Doc. You don't bring Piper and Tennant back and short change the audience. The meta-crisis thing was a brief footnote the wider audience possibly can't even remember (unless they watch Journey's End sometime).
John Hurt won't be playing a past Doctor. I hate the idea of recasting anybody. Richard Hurndall was a neccessity I'll forgive because they already lost Tom Baker back in 1983 so lacking another Doctor would have been totally unacceptable. There is no need for recasting today as most are still with us and willing to do it. And why the hell would you wanna see an imposter doing a bad impersonation of Jon Pertwee or Troughton anyway?????
I have to say I prefer Tennant. No contest for me. Although I've come to like Matt Smith I'd never regard him as a "classic" Doctor. Not on a level with say Tom Baker, Jon Pertwee or Tennant. I worry actually Tennant might steal the show from him. The media certainly feels vindicated by news of the big return. I saw a recent headline which dramatically stated: "THEY'RE BACK!" Almost as though Doctor Who is back in business for some so to speak lol
Not sure what this means for the other Doctor's. Some are moaning that it's Tennant that's only been confirmed and where are the rest? Although I love them all I doubt most will be screaming from the rooftops that Colin Baker or Sylvester McCoy are back because for many their still sadly seen as the scourge of the show. And Paul McGann was only in the 1 movie that most barely even remember or have seen. Getting Tennant is a far bigger deal clearly news-wise. I believe they have deliberately leaked his casting to keep press off the subject of other returning faces for the time being. I mean let's face it he and Piper are the biggest news that can break. With this now out they can keep the press of their backs. What do you think?
I like Tennant, don't get me wrong. However I feel he was a victim of writing at times. When he was written well, he was brilliant – to coin a phrase from the guy himself.
I feel RTD's episodes weren't as good as the other writers during his tenure.
Tennant is exceptional in 'Human Nature/The Family of Blood'. This is my favourite story. He has two roles to play here, The Doctor and John Smith, and he knocks it out of the park. The episodes give terrific insights into who The Doctor is and what he is not.
RTD made the show too much into a suburban soap opera for my liking, and this reached its peak during 'The End of Time'. Frankly, the ideas were all well and good but it came off as a bloated mess. Just too much emo. I don't mind emotion, but prefer the straight bat, I'm hurting but won't talk about it thing. So when Smith plays the role more alieny and less human, I'm really on board.
If Tennant was written primarily by Moffat things would've been even better for him. Tennant may have had higher highs – Blink, Girl in the Fireplace etc, but I think the Smith era is more consistent quality wise. Just my two cents.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Tue, 2 Apr 2013, 03:36
I like Tennant, don't get me wrong. However I feel he was a victim of writing at times. When he was written well, he was brilliant – to coin a phrase from the guy himself.
I feel RTD's episodes weren't as good as the other writers during his tenure.
Tennant is exceptional in 'Human Nature/The Family of Blood'. This is my favourite story. He has two roles to play here, The Doctor and John Smith, and he knocks it out of the park. The episodes give terrific insights into who The Doctor is and what he is not.
RTD made the show too much into a suburban soap opera for my liking, and this reached its peak during 'The End of Time'. Frankly, the ideas were all well and good but it came off as a bloated mess. Just too much emo. I don't mind emotion, but prefer the straight bat, I'm hurting but won't talk about it thing. So when Smith plays the role more alieny and less human, I'm really on board.
If Tennant was written primarily by Moffat things would've been even better for him. Tennant may have had higher highs – Blink, Girl in the Fireplace etc, but I think the Smith era is more consistent quality wise. Just my two cents.
My issue with it these days is it's become like traditional Dr Who again, a geeky science fiction show that only fanboy's get. I can tell you my mum gets totally lost on it now lol She utterly despises River Song, a character who's ridiculous and dull complexity (not to mention her sickening flirtation with the Doctor) becomes a major headache. And I can't really argue with her there. I don't think it's fair to say that people who can't keep up with the complexities don't matter. I feel strongly Dr Who should be a show anyone can enjoy and RTD did just that during his tenure. I love his episodes because of their epic, filmic quality. Consider Journey's End. Utter madness at getting all those characters together in an exciting action packed story. Then consider The Big Bang. Brilliant story and paradoxes but did I want to see this for the big finale that everybody now feels are the epic episodes? Nope. I wanted to see that entire Alien Alliance in action against the Doctor! But Moffatt had other ideas. RTD would surely have given us the former and what an episode it would've been. I adore his insane showmanship.
On the subject of End of Time all I can say is my dad passed away that year (2009). And a big bold regeneration story was just the cup of tea I needed to cheer me up. I know what you mean about aspects of the plot but I think you had to be in the right frame of mind for it all. When Dr Who is your favourite show and you've had a pretty sh*tty year, you don't give a crap all that much about depth and complexity my friend. Just the badass regeneration scene effects! lol
One of the things that has let Smith down were his companions. Writing Rory as the hero, having him always off with Amy and making the Doctor into a bumbling clumsy fool was not the best of starts for me. You've just had the heroic confidence of the Tenth Doctor and suddenly in comes the fool in the dickie bow. It was hard to swallow at first lol That is why I loved the ending of Dinosaurs on a Spaceship in which the Eleventh Doctor FINALLY got toughened up and killed Solomon. Yes it was controversial but I loved it. Up until then it was Rory left battling the villains and the Doc dancing around in the background. The Doctor of course shouldn't always kill in solving the plot but after ages of seeing him wimp out in place of Rory's heroism it was a breath of fresh air to cheer him again. Amy meanwhile I've always found bland and uninteresting. Her not having a family like previous companions I believe was a mistake because you never believed she had a real life like Rose or Martha. Didn't her family (introduced briefly in Big Bang) ever wonder where the hell she was? It was fake and old fashioned (as in the classic series). Some might say that's great, feels like old Dr Who, I found it a major outdated setback. And what about Rory's dad? A great character introduced far too late to care about. I got the impression the writers panicked and decided time to introduce some relatives before they both left. I was like sorry guys, too late.
Steven Moffatt was always the fan favourite during RTD's era. I believe he worked better writing 2 episodes a year. A team leader he is not. No story in the Eleventh Doctor's time has been as remarkable or clever to me as during his early days. He's just become my new best friend however in getting Tennant back. He clearly wants to have that old Davies' epic quality in this special. Even in The Bells of Saint John were suddenly back in modern day London and away from Planet Zog just as RTD always preferred. I'm a big fan myself of the earth bound Pertwee years and I always enjoyed when the threat came back to Earth. Earth invasions were RTD's specialty. I feel we've been out in space far too much with the Eleventh Doctor. It's time to balance it out again.
I'm on the Moffat side of the divide. While I appreciate everything RTD brought to the Doctor, it was veering into Torchwood territory in terms of tone, and as that show has been a consistent letdown for me, I'm pleased SM is handling it. That said, Series 5 was a bit rocky for me. Series 6 is probably my favorite so far, though I'm really enjoying S7 as well. I'm neutral on the MS and DT debate--they're both terrific in their own right, each one more or less is *his own* Doctor, though it took MS a few episodes for me to warm to him. I have a very positive outlook about the upcoming crossover. :) Plenty to celebrate!!!
I am not a fan of 'dumbing down' plot lines so the casual viewer doesn't have to think too hard at the risk of rupturing a brain cell - at the cost of the die hard fan. If they can't keep up, too bad. I don't care. Watch something else. The show should strive to be the best it can be. And I get that feeling a lot more with Moffat.
Personally, Smith is more of a classic Doctor than Tennant. Smith evokes Troughton not just in costume. The clumsy side is very much a facet of The Doctor's personality, emphasised more so in certain incarnations. It's a strange mix of being naturally him and a strategic act that bamboozles the enemy. This guy is just not an overly excited man that shouts here and there. He's a Time Lord who thinks and behaves differently.
I find it endearing and funny when The Doctor does something odd and people look around awkwardly. It's not a flaw. It's an advantage, character building. There's another cent, taking my tally up to three.
Quote from: greggbray on Tue, 2 Apr 2013, 23:31
I'm on the Moffat side of the divide. While I appreciate everything RTD brought to the Doctor, it was veering into Torchwood territory in terms of tone, and as that show has been a consistent letdown for me, I'm pleased SM is handling it. That said, Series 5 was a bit rocky for me. Series 6 is probably my favorite so far, though I'm really enjoying S7 as well. I'm neutral on the MS and DT debate--they're both terrific in their own right, each one more or less is *his own* Doctor, though it took MS a few episodes for me to warm to him. I have a very positive outlook about the upcoming crossover. :) Plenty to celebrate!!!
So what do we now make of the devastating blow that Chris Eccleston has pulled out? Talk about being a "party pooper" after last weeks Tennant revelations. Let's face it we kinda expected this. Still it does not make it any less easier to swallow. I mean what a kick in the guts. The fact he actually did meet with Moffat several times makes it even harder. I did sort of guess it after they announced Piper last week. How can she appear with both of them? I think the least he could have done is have a small cameo. Now there's doubts will even get that.
What is more Sylvester McCoy has suggested none of the classic Doctor's have been approached...at all! Somehow I have a terrible feeling this is no lie. I'm delighted Tennant will be there but still this is a 50th anniversary too. Surely the others will be considered as well? It doesn't make sense only acknowledging modern Who.
I never, ever expected Chris to appear in the 50th anniversary given his attitude over the years. So I don't feel a kick in the guts at all. I'm sure other past Doctors will be in the special.
The news isn't surprising given his past statements about the role. It would've been cool to have a Three Doctors-style special with Tennant and Smith playing off each other throughout and Eccleston popping up in a cameo, but oh well. Perhaps a different past Doctor can be brought in to fill his prospective role.
Still, with Tom Baker, Peter Davison, Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy, and Paul McGann all starring together in Big Finish's multi-Doctor audio special, The Light At the End, I don't mind having only Tennant as the only past Doctor who shows up in the TV special. I think the BF audio productions are better outlets for these multi-Doctor stories anyway since they can make the stories as long as they want (vs. the 60 minutes that Moffat's limited to in the November special) and the medium allows the listener to imagine everyone at the age they played the characters, as opposed to trying to get them back into the role in live action now.
Seen this before, but good to have it in the gallery here:
http://www.batman-online.com/gallery/3305/doctor-who-batman-crossover-cover
Thoughts on the rest of Season 7?
I do think this is, unfortunately, the weakest season of the Smith/Moffat era. I liked Bells of St. John, but I found Rings of Akhaten boring, save for Smith's big speech at the end (which would've made more impact if the rest of the episode was less talky). Cold War was an improvement, but still not that engaging. Hide was alright, but didn't live up to the hype for me. If Neil Cross doesn't write another Doctor Who episode again, I'd be okay with that.
Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS and Crimson Horror were huge step-ups, though. Really enjoyed those. Nightmare in Silver, I'd rank under those but still above everything from Rings to Hide. Great to see Smith in evil mode.
The Name of the Doctor was definitely one of the better episodes of the season, if not the best. Loved all the appearances of the previous Doctors and it was great to see so many threads get wrapped up, more or less- The Great Intelligence, Trenzalore, the mystery of Clara, and, presumably, River's final appearance (especially since her first time playing the role post-Library. Her "Good-bye, Sweetie" made this the appropriate send-off). With Richard E. Grant returning, part of me wonders what it would've been like if they somehow took the opportunity to bring the Shalka Doctor into continuity, but I understand how that would've been way too much to explain.
Of course, there's now a new mystery with the appearance of John Hurt's Doctor at the end. I was a bit disappointed that this got leaked by Hurt himself a week or two ago when he said he was playing "part of the Doctor" but still, I think it worked when it came to this scene.
There was no way we were going to learn the Doctor's name for real in this episode. What impact would it have if we found out that his real name was (Insert Gallifreyan Word Here)? None. I think the point was always about WHY he chose the name of The Doctor (which got hinted at in his words to Clara at the end about a "promise") and how it tied into something terrible that he had done. It looks like John Hurt's incarnation- a regeneration that The Doctor is too ashamed of to even acknowledge as a previous Doctor- is his big secret, rather than the name itself.
I agree with fan theories that this is the Doctor between Paul McGann and Christopher Eccleston (after all, we've seen all the regenerations except McGann's) and he's probably the one who ended the Time War, based off of the Eleventh Doctor's treatment of him, but I do think there's got to be something more to it. The Doctor killing off the Time Lords and the Daleks isn't exactly a secret. He's shared that fact with several people since the Eccleston season. What else did The Forgotten Doctor do? Can't wait to find out in November.
While I haven't been as lukewarm to series 7b as a lot of other people online, I do admit it has lacked the punch of earlier Moffat era series, and I think a good part of that has been due to the lack of multi-episode arcs. But the latter half of this series picked up a lot of stem. I enjoyed everything from "Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS" onward (I cannot for the life of me understand why people are so divided by "Nightmare in Silver", I loved it). And "The Name of the Doctor", I cannot think of a better single episode of NewWho, or a better single episode written by Moffat. I absolutely loved the explanation for Clara, and the fact that ultimately it was such a simple thing that led to such complexity. And I really can't wait to see more of Hurt's Doctor in November; he has to be the 9th Doctor right? Which would make then Matt Smith really the 12th Doctor, meaning they're gonna have to adress the 13 regeneration thing pretty soon... :)
I'm seriously nerding out about this more than MOS or anything DCu related. Can't wait for November!
Right. The way, I see it, "The Doctor" is a title. It's like his superhero name (i.e. Batman, Superman, Spider-Man).
Given the evidence, I think McGann's Eighth Doctor regenerated into John Hurt (probably some time during the Time War), but Hurt's actions "broke the promise" that would've qualified him to be "The (Ninth) Doctor."
Hurt then regenerated into the traumatized Christopher Eccleston, who decide to atone for what happened and fulfill the promise/the name of The Doctor again, making him the Ninth Doctor since he was too ashamed to call his previous John Hurt version by that title.
In this case, all the numberings of The Doctors are still correct. He's just had an extra form/regeneration between the 1996 movie and the new series- Eccleston was the Ninth Doctor, but his tenth form; Tennant was the Tenth Doctor but his eleventh form; and Smith is the Eleventh Doctor, but his twelfth form.
True, true. What I expect (and hope) is that Hurt's Doctor will somehow atone for his "sins" in the special and earn the tittle of "The Doctor". That'll also clarify any doubt about remaining regenerations and all that. FWIW, even though Smith confirmed he will be in series 8, part of me thinks his time is coming to an end...(not that this is what I want of course, I love him in the role).
Having not seen the eps yet, I don't have a lot offer in terms of opinion, but...
Is it possible that John Hurt is the Valeyard from the Colin Baker megastory Trial of a Time Lord? In that story he is the incarnation of the evil side of the doctor that manifested between his 12th and final regeneration and is a character that should be popping up soon, unless the current regime plans to ignore that little part of established history like Davies and company did when they ignored Inferno so they could feature a tunnel to the center of the earth in "The Runaway Bride".
While it's possible, I do think it's unlikely since The Valeyard gets mentioned by The Great Intelligence in the finale. If Hurt's Doctor was The Valeyard, then they had the perfect way to introduce him as such.
There are other theories that John Hurt's incarnation is actually his very first incarnation- dubbed "Doctor Zero"- before regenerating into William Hartnell, implying that he was originally someone who committed terrible things before atoning, as Hartnell.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 26 May 2013, 00:59
There are other theories that John Hurt's incarnation is actually his very first incarnation- dubbed "Doctor Zero"- before regenerating into William Hartnell, implying that he was originally someone who committed terrible things before atoning, as Hartnell.
I'm leaning on Hurt being the Time War Doctor, but I wouldn't mind this. The very reason why he began calling himself The Doctor.
I think 8 died in the Time War, and regenerated into Hurt - who ended the Time War. Something happened and time backtracked to 8's regen, where he instead transformed into Chris' ninth doctor. But Hurt's actions still occurred.
I actually really love the idea of Hurt Being "Doctor Zero", but I don't think that's the case. Eleven told Clara how "he's the one that broke the promise" of "The Doctor", not that he's the reason he made the promise. Timemy wimemy stuff aside, The Doctor couldn't have broken the promise if he hadn't made it yet. I agree that Hurt is the Time War Doctor, and he did something much worse than the genocide of the Daleks and Time Lords. So it must've been really really bad if genocide didn't break the Doctor's promise...
Quote from: ElCuervoMuerto on Sun, 26 May 2013, 01:25
I actually really love the idea of Hurt Being "Doctor Zero", but I don't think that's the case. Eleven told Clara how "he's the one that broke the promise" of "The Doctor", not that he's the reason he made the promise. Timemy wimemy stuff aside, The Doctor couldn't have broken the promise if he hadn't made it yet.
Agreed. If he were "Doctor Zero," Eleven would've said something along the lines of "He's the reason I made that promise" instead.
The only way it could work, without contradicting the dialogue in the finale, is if Hurt's Doctor immediately broke the promise after making it, committed terrible things, then regenerated into Hartnell, who decided to fulfill his original promise and live up to his name for once, making him the "first"/"original" Doctor to do good things.
While I favor the Time War Doctor theory as well, I have to admit that Hurt being "Doctor Zero" would fit a lot more with it being the character's big, terrible secret. We'll just have to see what Moffat has in store.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/doctor-who/10093520/Matt-Smith-to-quit-Doctor-Who-after-Christmas-special.html
:(
I really did feel as if this was coming. Especially when Smith shaved his head.
It seems 3 and a bit seasons is going to be the limit for actors in the role. Smith is going roughly at the same time as Tennant.
It's a great role, but it is also a long hard slog down at Cardiff. In that regard David and Matt have been loyal to the show. There's a lot that going on beyond the 45 minute weekly episode. In that regard I don't really blame them.
It'll be sad to see him go. But it is what it is.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 2 Jun 2013, 01:03
I really did feel as if this was coming. Especially when Smith shaved his head.
It seems 3 and a bit seasons is going to be the limit for actors in the role. Smith is going roughly at the same time as Tennant.
It's a great role, but it is also a long hard slog down at Cardiff. In that regard David and Matt have been loyal to the show. There's a lot that going on beyond the 45 minute weekly episode. In that regard I don't really blame them.
It'll be sad to see him go. But it is what it is.
Isn't it now time to 'mix things up' a little bit and have a black Doctor or a female one? This is an intergalactic being after all so race and gender surely have no bearing on the character but a non-white, possibly non-male face might be a welcome 'modernisation'. As long as the character remains suitably 'quirky' I don't see why the Doctor should always be portrayed as a white, Anglo-Saxon(ish) male.
They have opened up the chance for a woman to be The Doctor, given a throwaway comment in 'The Doctor's Wife'. A Time Lord had a tattoo on their wrist and always re-inked it with each regeneration, and at one point they morphed into a female.
Though I don't like the idea. I think if you're born a male, it would and should follow a male DNA pattern. But everything else be random. Age, appearance, race, etc. Things should not be done just for the sake of it. Choose people on their merit, not to fulfil 'something that hasn't been done before'.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 5 Jun 2013, 00:10
Choose people on their merit, not to fulfil 'something that hasn't been done before'.
Sure, obviously whoever is picked for the role should be a capable performer but why shouldn't that be a woman or a black actor? Also, I don't see why Doctor Who's gender is anymore sacrosanct than the character's race or age.
I believe io9 mentioned Laura Pulver (Irene Alder in "Sherlock") as a possible female Doctor. From then on out the is in my favorite list to take over the Doctor, either male or female. :)
While I realistically don't expect them to do a female Doctor (although the way Moffat writes it may just happen since he did mention Time Lords swapping genders previously), I at the very lest want a non-white Doctor. Or at least a ginger for Pete's sakes. :)
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Wed, 5 Jun 2013, 01:40
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Wed, 5 Jun 2013, 00:10
Choose people on their merit, not to fulfil 'something that hasn't been done before'.
Sure, obviously whoever is picked for the role should be a capable performer but why shouldn't that be a woman or a black actor? Also, I don't see why Doctor Who's gender is anymore sacrosanct than the character's race or age.
I feel as though it'd come off as a token gimmick, no matter what.
Peter Capaldi is the Twelfth Doctor!
http://doctorwho.tumblr.com/post/57349765887/its-official-peter-capaldi-is-the-next-doctor
Capaldi is 55, the age that Hartnell was when he took on the role. For the first time in the series reboot, The Doctor will be a middle-aged actor.
This is also the second time that a Doctor has been cast from an actor who previously appeared on the show. Capaldi was the patriarch of the Roman family in The Fires of Pompeii (which also had Karen Gillan) and played Frobisher on Torchwood.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 4 Aug 2013, 18:45
Peter Capaldi is the Twelfth Doctor!
http://doctorwho.tumblr.com/post/57349765887/its-official-peter-capaldi-is-the-next-doctor
Capaldi is 55, the age that Hartnell was when he took on the role. For the first time in the series reboot, The Doctor will be a middle-aged actor.
This is also the second time that a Doctor has been cast from an actor who previously appeared on the show. Capaldi was the patriarch of the Roman family in The Fires of Pompeii (which also had Karen Gillan) and played Frobisher on Torchwood.
This has got to be the worst kept secret in show business. The bookies' money has been on Capaldi for days.
Personally, I'm pleased with the choice (although I must confess I'm an
extremely casual viewer of the show). To use a cliché he 'was born for the role'. He has the right blend of quirkiness, aloof intelligence, mystery and edge. Anyone who's see him as Malcolm Tucker in 'The Thick of it' and 'In the Loop' will know that this is a Doctor one should easily mess with.
I do hope we'll one day see a black or female or hey, a black female Doctor but lack of 'boundary-pushing' aside this is a great choice.
Very pleased with this casting. An older Doctor again is refreshing.
If it was a woman I would've turned my back on the show.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 4 Aug 2013, 23:09
Very pleased with this casting. An older Doctor again is refreshing.
If it was a woman I would've turned my back on the show.
I'm glad we've got an older Doctor again too. Perhaps us oldies can relate to the character a bit better now. ;) But I don't get why people have a problem with the Doctor being a woman. Women can be doctors or Doctors too you know. :)
I seriously would have turned my back on the show. I would have hated it. After having 11 people of a certain template, all of a sudden having a woman show up would be off.
It's largely just the entitled PC brigade beating the drum for it "because it hasn't happened before" screaming equality slogans. To them I say get over it. I hate it when politics and all that crap enters into entertainment.
I can understand how colors feels when non-Superman fans complain about aspects of the character.
Anyway, the BBC had sense and ignored that 'movement'. Welcome to the show Peter.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 4 Aug 2013, 23:50
I seriously would have turned my back on the show. I would have hated it. After having 11 people of a certain template, all of a sudden having a woman show up would be off.
It's largely just the entitled PC brigade beating the drum for it "because it hasn't happened before" screaming equality slogans. To them I say get over it. I hate it when politics and all that crap enters into entertainment.
I can understand how colors feels when non-Superman fans complain about aspects of the character.
Anyway, the BBC had sense and ignored that 'movement'. Welcome to the show Peter.
I generally respect and roughly agree with 99% of your opinions Dark Knight so I hate to risk burning my bridges with you over this but I just don't get why a female Doctor would be such an issue. The Doctor is an extra-terrestrial being that can surely assume any human form it likes. Why that has to be a white man I don't know. I'm not especially fussed about whether there will ever be a female Doctor or not but I do think the possibility should always be left open. I simply see no reason why the character can't be a woman or why that would even upset the dynamic of the programme. Besides the great thing about Doctor Who is that the character always regenerates after a few series anyway so even if you don't care for one particular Doctor, and I haven't liked all of them, another one will show up a couple of years later.
While I don't feel the same way as Dark Knight (I'd be interested to see the show explore different ground with a female Doctor), I'm annoyed that some of the backlash to the Capaldi casting is simply that he's not female or a different skin color.
I feel like the next James Bond will get similar flack if Daniel Craig is replaced by another white English actor, as opposed to someone like Idris Elba. Would I be open to a black James Bond? Of course. But I'm not going to cry foul if it goes to another traditional actor, especially if that guy is good.
This kind of criticism simply isn't fair to the guy who won the part, who, in this case, is a critically acclaimed, award-winning thesp and, like David Tennant, grew up as a massive Whovian himself.
He even met Jon Pertwee when he was young. Heck, if Smith was inspired by Troughton, it's a possibility that Capaldi will be inspired by Pertwee. I can definitely see Capaldi as a more serious, authoritative Doctor, not to mention that his dynamic with Clara (due to the age difference) will likely be more like the Classic Doctors' mentor/paternal dynamic with their companions, as opposed to the more romantic take that's been in play since the series reboot.
I've got to say that while I'm sad that Smith is leaving (and he's my current favorite), I'm definitely excited to see what Capaldi will bring to the role. Even this introductory clip gets me pumped to see what he can do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDGzzGRKukE
There's already a backlash BatmAngelus? I realise that Capaldi's casting had been heavily rumoured for the last three days or so but surely it's too soon after the official announcement for a 'backlash'...ahhh, the internet... ::)
Anyway, like you I'd be open to a black Doctor Who or black James Bond and I hope there's always a possibility of it happening but it the casting should never be about breaking barriers simply for the sake of doing so. When casting is as perfect as Capaldi playing Doctor Who it seems churlish to complain. Above all the casting should be about finding the right person for the role at a given time. My understanding of Doctor Who is that he (or she ;) ) isn't a character particularly defined by their gender or race since they are after all an extra-terrestrial. For me the ideal Doctor Who actor, regardless of physical identity should be someone who can project a certain quirkiness, authority, intensity and mystery, and immense intelligence. As far as identity goes I believe there is but one requirement and that is that the Doctor be from the British Isles (although if Scotland decides to vote for independence he might not necessarily be from the United Kingdom), the Doctor being a particularly British institution. Whether that Brit is male/female, black/white/other, gay/straight, short/tall, fat/thin (although it does help that they are rather athletic and sprightly as far as the action scenes go so short and fat is perhaps not ideal) is not really that important IMHO.
Anyway, the final point is Peter Capaldi is arguably the best possible choice for the role at this given time (although I'm actually rather surprised he wasn't cast the last two times). It's almost a 'no-brainer' as far as casting.
QuoteThere's already a backlash BatmAngelus? I realise that Capaldi's casting had been heavily rumoured for the last three days or so but surely it's too soon after the official announcement for a 'backlash'...ahhh, the internet...
It's been rather small compared to the "Doctor WHO?! He's too young!" backlash that Matt Smith got, but the negative comments I've read have either been:
- "Great, another white guy. I wanted a woman/black guy/etc."
- "He's too old. Isn't he supposed to be younger?"
- "This can't be. He was already on the show. And on Torchwood. How will they make sense of it?!"
Sadly, none of these things have to do with the man's acting ability. I've already addressed the first quibble. The other complaints seem rather ignorant of the show's history and the character. #2 in particular seems to be a complaint from fangirls who've been fawning over Tennant and Smith and were probably expecting another smooth-skinned, 20-30-something to fall in love with. (Bet they've never seen any of the Hartnell episodes, haha).
#3 also comes from those who might not have realized that Colin Baker had appeared on the show before becoming the Sixth Doctor (and several companions had been part of the show as other characters before coming on fulltime, like Lalla Ward, Freema Agyeman, and Karen Gillan).
I think it's actually a testament to Capaldi's talents that he's been asked to return to the Doctor Who universe for a third time, in the biggest way possible.
I would never, ever accept a black James Bond. Never, ever. It shouldn't even rate a mention with the casting agents. The character is a white male. People just have to accept it. The PC brigade can make their own character if they want, but leave Bond alone.
I wouldn't accept a female Doctor either. It would be an issue.
Among other things, it'd just be like "oh, so after 12 regens he's all of a sudden a she. Whatevs." Was that just some ultra-rare anomaly or something? *rolls eyes*
The die has been cast here as far as I am concerned. Again, the PC brigade can make their own character. This movement just seems to think they have to beat their drum loud and call out apparent populist slogans and people roll over. Nah, sorry.
They can make a komodo dragon regenerate into a pelican if they want. Doesn't mean I would like it.
The white male is possibly the most discriminated individual on the planet. They just have to sit there and cop it all on the chin. They can always accused of racism and such, but if it's the other way around, it doesn't seem to wash or rate a mention.
To be honest, I don't see much legit displeasure at Peter's casting. I can see him slipping into the role from day dot. And yes, he is the Doctor. I'm glad the template which was established in 1963 is being honoured to this day.
I hope he's more aloof and grumpier.
Well to be honest i'm always open for actors to play a role they want no matter the race they are i mean who are we to say a black actor can't play bond?Why should we be the judges if an actor can't play a role cause if he's black & the character is white or any other race? >:( They got Laurence Fishburne to play Perry White in the man of steel & last time i checked perry was white in the comics yet they got Laurence Fishburne to play as him & while i found it odd for a change i accepted it cause i thought he was great in the role despite me not liking the man of steel much.Bottom line i believe any actor of any race can play a role they want despite the character's race only if they could do a good job in it. :) i believe in equality
Quote from: BatmanFanatic93 on Mon, 5 Aug 2013, 05:33
i mean who are we to say a black actor can't play bond?Why should we be the judges if an actor can't play a role cause if he's black & the character is white or any other race? >:(
Ian Fleming. He created the character in 1953 and James Bond is a white male. It's got little to do with 'equality' and more to do with how things are. Just as Batman is a white American. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done. Especially with large icon characters, not incedental roles. Just as I wouldn't want Obama played by a white guy, because y'know, he
is black. I'm sure a white guy could play the part, but that's beside the point. He shouldn't get a look in. And so it goes on.
All of a sudden we are fighting to maintain established norms. 'Equality' doesn't have to apply everywhere. I'm sick of it, but the war goes on.
*sigh*
i don't even have anything to say anymore on the subject cause i know how it's gonna go first it'll end up being a huge fight with people taking sides,name calling,& frankly i'm in no mood for it cause i believe in whats right & Equality that's all so if you have anything else to say go ahead & say it to me but please note i will not continue the convo cause of what i said above.
I believe in what's right too, hence my passion for preserving characters I love.
Anyway...here's to Peter Capaldi - and Matt Smith and David Tennant in the anniversary special. The Doctor's a funny guy, every one of him.
Quote from: BatmanFanatic93 on Mon, 5 Aug 2013, 07:48
*sigh*
i don't even have anything to say anymore on the subject cause i know how it's gonna go first it'll end up being a huge fight with people taking sides,name calling,& frankly i'm in no mood for it cause i believe in whats right & Equality that's all so if you have anything else to say go ahead & say it to me but please note i will not continue the convo cause of what i said above.
Well I agree with you BatmanFanatic.
I'm rather taken aback at Dark Knight's 'the white man is the most discriminated group on the planet'. Dark Knight's opinions are usually much more reasonable and levelled-headed than that.
Characters can change and develop over time. The idea of a black British secret agent when Sir Ian Fleming write the James Bond novels was out of the question, and if the Bond films were authentic period movies set in the era when the books were written I'd certainly agree that Bond
should be played by a white man. But the films have always been contemporary movies set in the era they are made and consequently there is no reason why a modern-era Bond film shouldn't feature a black man in the role.
As it happens I still believe the definitive Bond as depicted by Fleming is yet to be depicted on screen (which is why I'd like to see Michael Fassbender take on the role next time out). Neither Sean Connery nor Daniel Craig, two of the more successful Bonds if not
the most successful Bonds really come close to embodying the character from the original novels either in appearance or demeanour. Bond is a suave, dark-haired, effete upper-class bully. By contrast, Connery and Craig project working-class, resourceful (and in Connery's case, cocky) swagger.
As for Dr Who, Dark Knight has still failed to give an adequate reason why the character couldn't in theory be played by a woman or a black actor other than it being 'tradition'.
That's my just opinion, gobbs. And I stick with it 100 per cent.
Every race and gender has something they can do/say to claim discrimination but white males have nothing. They're the only racist individuals according to the media. "You think I'm not good at my job so you're racist". Such a word is big accusation, and the white person has to cop it all on the chin. There is no way to prove or disprove such an accusation. And they come sometimes at the drop of a hat.
Double standards are at play. If a white is called a honkey or something like that, people laugh. It's all cool. Society is more about bending over backwards to please the minorities and be politically correct, at the expense others. It's ok to hate whites.
I do not make these claims lightly, gobbs. They are level headed. I don't just blurt stuff out. You have your view, I have mine. So you saying anything to the contrary about my opinion is just an insult. I don't agree with your stance, but you clearly have level headedly considered this.
And again, Bond isn't black. End of story. If people want a black agent, they are free to create a new character. And I believe Bond has been already been portrayed very well on screen. Sure, The Doctor could be played by a woman. There are good actresses out there. But I simply would not acknowledge it. You have failed to give a adequate reason as to why The Doctor should be a woman other than it hasn't been done before and other lefty, equality BS. Never ever.
Again, this is my opinion and it aint changing. I get deeply annoyed at people messing with established institutions. Like The Doctor being male, or Bond being white - deal with it and go tamper with something else.
Go and demand Superman be black and rile colors up or something.
I don't think it's a good idea to derail a discussion about Dr Who into a debate on political correctness and discrimination against the white man, although on the last matter I do agree at the very least that the issue of discrimination is a lot more complex than it simply being a case of society dumping on women and ethnic minorities in all situations. However, in most situations and with all other factors being equal (social status, education, living environment, family background etc) a typical white man is going to be less discriminated than a typical black woman. 400 years of western slavery and less than 100 years of female emancipation will have that affect on society and it's still a fact today that women get paid significantly less than men for doing exactly the same work in many occupations.
I don't feel passionately about Superman, Bond or Dr Who being black or whatever. However, unless there is a good reason why these roles should always be played by a white man (i.e. there is an aspect of their character that is defined by their race and gender) than I don't see why these roles cannot be open up to a wider range of actors of all races, and in some cases (i.e. Dr Who), actresses.
I do think there are some iconic roles that are partly defined by their race. I personally would have a hard time swallowing a black Batman for instance since the comic-books clearly define his alter-ego, Bruce Wayne, as a man of privilege with an upper-class old-money (i.e. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) pedigree. Although that type of patrician billionaire is increasingly becoming eroded from society and I dare say that Bruce could legitimately be the son of a mixed-race couple without losing his status as the descendent of one of Gotham's founding fathers, I still believe it makes sense, at least for the foreseeable future, for Batman to be cast as a convincingly aristocratic white man since that construct serves as simple, uncomplicated short-hand for Western privilege.
I think wherever non-conventional casting might hurt a particular character by making things too complicated, as in the example I just outlined or in the case of the upcoming 'Fantastic Four' reboot where there has been some discussion of casting a black actor and a white actress as (typically biological) siblings Johnny and Sue Storm respectively, it should be avoided and 'PC-considerations' should definitely be set-aside. But I don't see why opening the parts of Superman and a modern-era James Bond to a black actor (is Krypton an entirely homogenous planet?) or Dr Who, a constantly regenerating extra-terrestrial, to a black, female or black female performer would hurt the character in anyway whatsoever.
You don't feel passionately about it, but others do. That's the thing. For example, over 90 percent of people voted NO to a female Doctor in a Doctor Who TV poll. Yet the vocal minority keeps shouting. I'm not the only one with this view. You have a hard time swallowing a black Batman. That does not make you racist, homophobic, sexist or any other label. It's just how you feel. Same with my stances. I feel major alterations like this take away the very core of the characters. Again with Who, the fact the Doctor has been male for over 900 years of his life would make a female regeneration nonsensical. The fact they are established white roles is the best and only reason this should rightly continue.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 5 Aug 2013, 14:30
You don't feel passionately about it, but others do. That's the thing. For example, over 90 percent of people voted NO to a female Doctor in a Doctor Who TV poll. Yet the vocal minority keeps shouting. I'm not the only one with this view. You have a hard time swallowing a black Batman. That does not make you racist, homophobic, sexist or any other label. It's just how you feel. Same with my stances. I feel major alterations like this take away the very core of the characters. Again with Who, the fact the Doctor has been male for over 900 years of his life would make a female regeneration nonsensical. The fact they are established white roles is the best and only reason this should rightly continue.
What I meant was I don't feel passionately that these characters
should be played by a black actor or an actress. I think there are bigger issues of equality than whether the next James Bond is black. But there are people who do feel passionately in favour of black actors taking on these roles as BatmAngelus's references demonstrate just as there are people like you who feel passionately that these characters should always be portrayed by white men.
I don't personally think you're a racist or sexist for your stance although with all due respect I still don't think your arguments as to why these characters should remain traditionally white males is especially compelling either. If we entered a situation where these characters ended up
only being played by black women then that would be a problem but the beauty of these characters is that they always get recast after a few years anyway and each casting change allows for something fresh to be introduced to the role (wouldn't it be boring if we merely ended up with carbon-copies each time?) Also, I'd never advocate a change to a character's ethnicity/gender simply for the sake of political correctness. It's great to break boundaries and open up opportunities for a wide range of actors/actresses who can reflect the more cosmopolitan, equal-opportunities era we live in but whoever is cast should always embody the right qualities for the part regardless of race and gender. Dr Who should be mysterious, quirky and highly intelligent, Bond should be lethal, brutal but classy, and Superman should represent honour and integrity.
At the risk of upsetting certain posters by bringing politics into it, I would not have been happy to see the first black president enter the White House in January 2009 if he wasn't the
right candidate. Now even as a staunch liberal (sorry colors) I can argue whether Obama was in fact the right candidate in retrospect (it's no secret that he's disappointed everyone across the political divide on partisan issues and non-partisan issues alike) but at the time it was not just a great watershed moment to see a black man finally ascend to the highest position in the US political hierarchy but it was great to see a man who seemingly represented integrity and decency, and still does to my mind represent family values, enter the White House. If the first black US President had been Herman Cain, or so that I don't alienate the Republicans in this forum, Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton, for instance I would not have been so happy, and I doubt I would have supported their ascension to the White House, PC-considerations and glass-ceiling breaking be damned.
The same applies for casting. I would only be happy to see these characters undergo a race change if the actor concerned was right for the part, NOT because I think the roles should be used simply as a test for political change.
.....
Let's make Catwoman a guy.
It's a topic that goes around in circles and one we will never, ever see eye to eye on.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 5 Aug 2013, 15:07
.....
Let's make Catwoman a guy.
It's a topic that goes around in circles and one we will never, ever see eye to eye on.
Well isn't there already a 'Catman'?
Yes, who is a separate character. Which plays into my argument of do your own thing, leave existing properties alone.
It's an endless, ridiculous movement. That'll do for me for now.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 5 Aug 2013, 15:57
Yes, who is a separate character. Which plays into my argument of do your own thing, leave existing properties alone.
It's an endless, ridiculous movement. That'll do for me for now.
Well at the risk of being facetious I think the point with Catwoman is that the character has to be a woman because of the whole name Cat
woman. :-\ I don't know, maybe Catwoman could be a transsexual or transvestite...Not sure whether that would go down well. :P
I'm pretty new to the whole Dr. Who mythology, with most of my knowledge coming from the Doctor's Revisited specials chronicling each Doctor in order, but I have a buddy who's a fairly hardcore whovian, and the choice of Peter Capaldi was most welcomed as he, prior to the announcement, expressed his thoughts on it being about time for the Doc to be portrayed by a more aged actor, as he had been in the past.
Having read some of the previous posts, I have to say that he agrees with Dark Knight in that he had absolutely no desire to see a regeneration into a female Doctor. Just because it can be done, doesn't necessarily mean it should be done. Plus, I did get to check out the 30 minute announcement special, and as I told him, it certainly appeared as if the executive producer didn't have a whole lot of interest in that idea either. As I remember some sarcastic quip following being asked about the idea and saying, "Yeah, next I want to see is a man playing the Queen". Or something to that effect.....
Will you be watching the 50th anniversary special, Joker? Even if you're not a hardcore Whovian I'd recommend you check it out. It's bound to be something of an event, with two Doctors meeting each other.
As for the 12th Doctor's uniform, I'm thinking something in the vein of the 1st or 3rd Doctors. Something regal with flowing robes, almost like a barrister. And I'd love to see him react with bemused disgust at the sight of 11's bow tie. That could be a funny moment.
Who are all your favourite Doctors so far? I reckon Capaldi is going to be one of the best but so far when I think of The Doctor the actors that come to mind are Tom Baker and David Tennant.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 5 Aug 2013, 23:58
As for the 12th Doctor's uniform, I'm thinking something in the vein of the 1st or 3rd Doctors. Something regal with flowing robes, almost like a barrister. And I'd love to see him react with bemused disgust at the sight of 11's bow tie. That could be a funny moment.
I like what you're thinking. I wouldn't mind something a little more out-there from #12, something more alien and ostentatious than the suits that Tennant and Smith have been wearing.
I also think Capaldi reacting to the bowtie is a guaranteed post-regeneration moment ;D.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 6 Aug 2013, 00:13
Who are all your favourite Doctors so far? I reckon Capaldi is going to be one of the best but so far when I think of The Doctor the actors that come to mind are Tom Baker and David Tennant.
Smith is my favorite, with Tennant as a close second, so I'm excited to see them together in the 50th. To be fair, though, I haven't seen everyone's full run. I've seen the McGann movie and all of the 2005-present relaunch from Eccleston until now, but I've only seen the William Hartnell serials with Susan in them and have been working through chronologically.
I've only seen one serial each of Troughton, Pertwee, and Davison, along with three serials for Tom Baker. And I haven't seen a Colin Baker or Sylvester McCoy adventure yet (I've got their Doctors Revisited specials with Vengeance of Varos and Remembrance of the Daleks on my DVR), though I've heard a couple of Colin Baker's Big Finish audios and enjoyed them.
Maybe one day when I see more from each one, I'll make a list of my ranking. Overall, there are some I like more than others, of course, but to me, from what I've seen/heard, they're all The Doctor.
QuoteI also think Capaldi reacting to the bowtie is a guaranteed post-regeneration moment ;D.
Has anyone seen 'The Thick of it' or 'In the Loop'? I can only imagine what a Malcolm Tucker-like Doctor might say. ;D
QuoteMaybe one day when I see more from each one, I'll make a list of my ranking. Overall, there are some I like more than others, of course, but to me, from what I've seen/heard, they're all The Doctor.
Oh I agree with you there. They're all as valid as the next IMHO. None of them have let the side down partly because the Doctor is such a flexible character not based on any previous format and thereby allows for a wide range of interpretations. All eleven TV Doctors have brought something special to the part. Overall though Tom Baker and Tennant are the two that stick out most in my mind.
All of the Doctors are pretty good. Though Smith is my favourite. I can see this remaining so for quite a while, not just because he's the incumbent. I'll always come into bat for him. When you look at how Moffat wrote this incarnation, he's had a long life. Longer than most. Particularly the segment of time where he's avoiding meeting the astronaut on the beach in Series 6. There's plenty of room to play with for expanded universe adventures.
I am really excited to see him play off Tennant in the special. It should be a wonderful moment, even though at the back of everyone's minds, we know 11 is doomed with one episode to go. The good thing about Doctor Who is nothing is ever finite. Regeneration is a fixed point, but a Doctor's timelines are long and complicated. As we saw in Series 7, The Doctor is already dead. His complete timeline is stored in his tomb, and everything we see is a recount. Just as 10 and 11 were running around out there while we were watching 9.
But as a viewer, we will never see the end, and there will always be a new Doctor. The show is one of a kind.
Quote from: johnnygobbs on Tue, 6 Aug 2013, 01:16
QuoteI also think Capaldi reacting to the bowtie is a guaranteed post-regeneration moment ;D.
Has anyone seen 'The Thick of it' or 'In the Loop'? I can only imagine what a Malcolm Tucker-like Doctor might say. ;D
QuoteMaybe one day when I see more from each one, I'll make a list of my ranking. Overall, there are some I like more than others, of course, but to me, from what I've seen/heard, they're all The Doctor.
Oh I agree with you there. They're all as valid as the next IMHO. None of them have let the side down partly because the Doctor is such a flexible character not based on any previous format and thereby allows for a wide range of interpretations. All eleven TV Doctors have brought something special to the part. Overall though Tom Baker and Tennant are the two that stick out most in my mind.
I've never watched "The Thick of It" but have been aware of it for some time. You must watch this video. It's fantastic!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Blf073f2Lc
Fave bit is at 0:11 and the last bit! If Capaldi played the Doctor like this it would be GENIUS!
"I want you to make a bomb and explode it today" LOL
Quote from: The Joker on Mon, 5 Aug 2013, 18:14
I'm pretty new to the whole Dr. Who mythology, with most of my knowledge coming from the Doctor's Revisited specials chronicling each Doctor in order, but I have a buddy who's a fairly hardcore whovian, and the choice of Peter Capaldi was most welcomed as he, prior to the announcement, expressed his thoughts on it being about time for the Doc to be portrayed by a more aged actor, as he had been in the past.
Having read some of the previous posts, I have to say that he agrees with Dark Knight in that he had absolutely no desire to see a regeneration into a female Doctor. Just because it can be done, doesn't necessarily mean it should be done. Plus, I did get to check out the 30 minute announcement special, and as I told him, it certainly appeared as if the executive producer didn't have a whole lot of interest in that idea either. As I remember some sarcastic quip following being asked about the idea and saying, "Yeah, next I want to see is a man playing the Queen". Or something to that effect.....
That was a great moment from Steve Moffat. He was launching a jibe at actress Helen Mirren (who played the Queen in a rather sh*te film) who has spouted off a lot lately about what the Doctor should be. Everything from black, gay, lesbian, woman...all in one! Pretty ridiculous gimmick casting. I worried the image of the Doctor had become a silly clown part again (as it was viewed prior to Chris Eccleston). Y'know we can only cast silly comedians as that character and all that talk? Capaldi has bumped up the quality again thank goodness.
The Eleventh Doctor did not work out for me at all. I found him far too childish (the "imaginary" "raggedy Doctor" and all that) and wacky with his magic wand (sonic screwdriver). I'd like a maturer and serious Jon Pertwee or Sylvester McCoy type this time. So I'm pretty thrilled we have a new one finally, just didn't expect it to be somebody as fantastic as Capaldi. He was a genuine surprise as I hadn't read the rumors. What a great face and voice! And he's a fan himself. I think he'll bring his enthusiasm into the character as David Tennant did and that will help him play a character superbly with so much history.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Mon, 5 Aug 2013, 23:58
Will you be watching the 50th anniversary special, Joker? Even if you're not a hardcore Whovian I'd recommend you check it out. It's bound to be something of an event, with two Doctors meeting each other.
Dark Knight, I'm pretty sure I will. The whole 'Who will be the 12th Doctor' got me interested, and I find myself more and more interested in the mythology as of late. Especially with the 'Revisited' specials, which definitely help me get a better idea of each Doc. Last week I was at a local BooksAMillion bookstore, and came
very close to picking up a special Doc Who magazine that focused specifically on the Dialects (though the aforementioned Doc Who buddy gave me a notice on that magazine). I may just very well pick it up this week, even if it's going for $20. Which is pretty steep, but it looks very informative from what I could tell, and gives me something to read on breaks at work.
I also have a question for you, Dark Knight, regarding the mythology. I understand the regeneration process brings about a new Doctor, as well as persona, but are the previous Doctor's still 'alive' or 'present' within Doc Who's psyche? Or are they essentially dead personalities, with each new regenerated Doc simply retaining their memories and nothing more?
My line of thinking is just me loosely equating the previous Doctor Who personas/personalities to the concept of Bruce Banner having experienced turning into numerous Hulk's thru the years, though at the same time, establishing that the various Hulk incarnations like Savage/Gray/Professor/World Breaker Hulk, continue to live on within Banner's psyche, even if some are not seen for years during transformations, they are still
present in Banner's mind.
Quote from: The Joker on Tue, 6 Aug 2013, 14:42
I also have a question for you, Dark Knight, regarding the mythology. I understand the regeneration process brings about a new Doctor, as well as persona, but are the previous Doctor's still 'alive' or 'present' within Doc Who's psyche? Or are they essentially dead personalities, with each new regenerated Doc simply retaining their memories and nothing more?
Technically, The Doctor has never died. Regeneration is cheating death. Though he's said the process feels like it. The Doctor is The Doctor (same mind) and he absolutely remembers all his past incarnations and what he did. Every cell in his body is replaced and repaired - resulting in a changed appearance. He maintains general key characteristics, eccentricity, wisdom, darkness, loneliness and such. Each incarnation has their own quirks and fashion sense. I like to think of it as someone changing their opinions as circumstances change. When 11 for example regenerates, that distinct personality is gone. Never to be evident again as it was there. He'll blend into the background, back into the great sea that is The Doctor. It's a heartbreaking, genius aspect of the show. It keeps the series, and the character who is pushing 900 years plus old, refreshed and recommitted.
Ok. That is unique, and thanks for clearing that up. I suppose alot of my speculation had to do with hearing or reading about the 1st Doctor being referred to as the 'Grouchy/Grumpy' one, as well as hearing about Tennant appearing in the upcoming special. Which is why I was loosely equating Who to Banner/Hulk where I thought previous incarnations of the Doctor basically remained present within the current Doc even if they never outwardly appear again. But from how I understand it, each regeneration essentially brings about a completely new lease on life so to speak, and with that, brings change in numerous ways.
If I am understanding it correctly, I can certainly see why each regeneration is heartbreaking, as well as bittersweet. As I'm sure viewers grew very fond of past incarnations that are simply no more....
Indeed. A superb regeneration scene is the 9th Doctor's. If you haven't seen it, take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUm5rM4fQxs
Very cool.
A nice article detailing Peter Capaldi's love for Doctor Who since youth:
http://io9.com/check-out-the-doctor-who-fan-art-created-by-teenage-pet-1047918927
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 7 Aug 2013, 00:25
A nice article detailing Peter Capaldi's love for Doctor Who since youth:
http://io9.com/check-out-the-doctor-who-fan-art-created-by-teenage-pet-1047918927
You see many actors and actresses say they've always been big fans of whatever movie or show they've been cast in. Most of the time it doesn't come off as genuine. But here? There's no doubt whatsoever Capaldi is a Doctor Who fan. He sent a letter in to a paper as a youngster. Proof. So I'm thrilled for him.
With an older Doctor we can now rescue the series from the teenie boppers who watch because the Doctor is "cute". Bring on Capaldi!
I like this list:
http://mashable.com/2013/08/07/doctor-who-peter-capaldi/
#3 makes a good point.
Quote3. He's Not in a Hurry to Leave
Matt Smith, David Tennant and Christopher Eccleston all seemed to rush out of the TARDIS to pursue bigger and better roles. Capaldi has been there and done that. Hollywood holds no glamour. He's closer to the end of his career than the beginning. For his predecessors, the role of the Doctor was a cage that could trap them in typecasting; for him, Doctor Who is almost like coming home.
Again, sad to see Smith go, but I can't wait to see this guy's performance.
Love that list! I liked Matt Smith( Actually I've liked them all, although it's hard for me to get into Davison), but I'm really looking forward to the new Doctor!
I've been watching more of the original William Hartnell serials during the current hiatus and gaining even more of an appreciation for the original Doctor. It's easy to just see him as a grumpy old man if you just watch An Unearthly Child and The Daleks, but he is absolutely hilarious in scenes where The Doctor is trying to trick someone or pretend to be someone else, like in The Reign of Terror and, even moreso, The Romans.
The more I see of Hartnell, the more I love his Doctor, specifically those first and second series episodes where he starts out so caustic (I love the original pilot more than the aired one because of this) and then slowly began to soften as a character. I find the historic episodes slightly faster paced and more enjoyable than the Sci-Fi episodes, but I have to admit there is something extra special about that first Dalek episode, it's easy to see why they became so popular. Like many people Tom Baker is my favorite of them all, but I have to say that Hartnell is a strong contender for second favorite now.
The latest news is that the 50th Anniversary Special is titled Day of the Doctor and will be 75 minutes.
You can check out the poster here:
http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/the-day-of-the-doctor-poster-53053.htm
It seems likely that John Hurt is The Doctor from the Time War, though again, as stated previously in the thread, he has to have done more than just that since The Doctor destroying Gallifrey is hardly a secret.
Other things of note from the poster:
- Hurt has something glowing red in his hand. Possibly his own sonic screwdriver (his first glowing one, if we're not counting the WETA workshop one that Paul McGann got for Big Finish recently)? Or something else.
EDIT: I just remembered that the "red settings" for the screwdriver in the Cold War episode were revealed to be potentially deadly, so perhaps they were planting the red setting there so that Hurt could use it later.
- You can clearly see BAD WOLF written on the left behind Hurt, which makes me a little more curious about Rose's role in this.
- There's also an exploding TARDIS in the background, which has led to some speculation that Moffat may reveal more about how the Silence tried to blow up the TARDIS back in Season 5. This also reminded me of the voice in The Pandorica Opens that stated "Silence will fall." That voice was never explained- it didn't sound at all like The Silence when they were revealed in Season 6- and I can't help but feel that it sounded like John Hurt. I know it's a stretch. I doubt they got him to do it that far in advance and it's more likely that the voice won't be explained, but I'd love to see The Day of the Doctor connect to The Pandorica Opens in some form, especially with Moffat promising that the remaining Smith adventures will wrap everything up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loGm3vT8EAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkq8pnvsnQg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z6FMCqYrBo
The 8.5/Time War Doctor theory looks more and more likely. This also should put to rest any speculation that Tennant is playing the Metacrisis/10.5 Doctor, since he has a TARDIS and sonic screwdriver. I could be wrong, but judging from the handle, the sonic looks to be the Series 1/2 one that shorted out in Series 3's Smith and Jones.
In preparation, I'll be watching The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors, as well as listening to Big Finish's The Light At the End.
This is going to be fun. I booked my 3D cinema tickets weeks back.
All I effectively wanted with this special was to see 10 and 11 team-up, and it's here. Looks like Tennant and Smith got on like a house on fire. I like the dynamic they went for. Sure, this is the Series 2 10th Doctor and he has a way to go, but people assumed 10 would hate 11 due to "not wanting to go", but this does not seem to be the case.
Others are saying as such, but it does seem this Rose is the 'Bad Wolf' Rose, immediately after absorbing the time vortex at the end of Parting of the Ways, sending her messages everywhere.
I have been re-watching the new series, series one onwards, leading up to the special. And I'm pleasantly surprised how well they hold up. I am really re-discovering Tennant's Doctor. I became a little jaded with where the writing went late into his tenure, but he really was "brilliant!"
I still think it's a tremendous loss the classic Doctor's won't be anywhere in this. However I'm calmer at seeing these trailers. I think they are the best I've seen since The Stolen Earth's in 2008.
I've seen some pics on various sites that I won't go into in case you guys haven't seen them. But I guess that red crystal device John Hurt has may already ring a few bells. I think it's "the moment" the Time Lords spoke about back in The End of Time. Some sort of weapon, a bomb perhaps? I think it's the job of the Tenth and Eleventh Doctor's to escort John Hurt to his destiny of ending the Time War conflict. So there may be lots of juicy paradoxes on offer in this.
I'm so annoyed at Christopher Eccleston turning it down but I do think his incarnation might still play a significant part in relation to John Hurt. In one particular photo Hurt is seen without wearing his Ninth Doctor-esque leather coat. It looks to be a climatic scene too so perhaps we will finally get that gap between the Paul Mcgann movie and Eccleston's season filled in at last.
I'm pleased there might be some sort of continuation of Bad Wolf inside Rose. This has been a major plot hole for years that never really got resolved. It's bold of Moffatt to even address that again after eight long years. Remember Tennant saying if a Time Lord absorbed it he'd become a vengeful god back in Utopia? Rose also stated she had the power taken out of her way back in The Christmas Invasion. But has she?
I have however already noticed some bloopers. Tennant saying "Allons y" in the trailer for example. He didn't start saying it until Army of Ghosts, right before Rose left! He even tells her he should say it more often. Hopefully all these paradoxes won't unleash too many continuity mistakes. I believe the Tenth Doctor and Rose may have their memories wiped in some way by the end. Just a nice clean way of rounding everything off and giving us an adventure we (or they) never knew they even had.
I'm starting to wonder, actually, if Tennant's Doctor is from much later in his career.
While the Series 2 Tenth Doctor would make sense in having Rose along (as well as my observation about the sonic, though I admit that I might be wrong about it), there's no guarantee that Rose is actually traveling with Ten during this story.
Tennant seems to be alone in the "Allons-y" shot in the trailer, not to mention I haven't seen Rose at all in any of the TARDIS footage or photos.
In addition to the "Allons-y" bit that Cobblepot4Mayor mentioned, there's the storyline between Ten and Elizabeth I to consider:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SUxiMoO_VQ
The Tenth Doctor didn't know why Queen Elizabeth hated him when she saw him in Series 3's Shakespeare Code and, presumably, found out later when he made the mistake of marrying her in the time between The Waters of Mars and The End of Time.
If Moffat follows this timeline, then The Day of The Doctor (at least the parts with Queen Elizabeth) needs to take place well after Series 3's The Shakespeare Code, more specifically in between The Waters of Mars and The End of Time in Ten's lifetime. In this context, the "Allons-y," the Queen Elizabeth story, and Ten traveling alone all fit better, with the Bad Wolf powers being the explanation for how Rose is brought back into the fold. After all, who's to say Ten couldn't have seen her one last time (before technically meeting her in The End of Time) after Journey's End?
Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Sun, 10 Nov 2013, 19:09
I believe the Tenth Doctor and Rose may have their memories wiped in some way by the end. Just a nice clean way of rounding everything off and giving us an adventure we (or they) never knew they even had.
Perhaps so. The 10th Doctor wiped Donna's mind clean in Series 4, and it was a very specific wipe. Perhaps this could happen again via the 11th Doctor, though keeping the John Hurt Doctor content in his mind, as it is something he needs to know and guard.
I'm thinking this 10th Doctor could be from between The Runaway Bride and Smith and Jones? This explains the "allonsy!", costume choice and why he is travelling alone.
I've already stated my views on the 2005 Doctor Who revival, so I won't go over them again. Truth be told, it's a very painful subject for a lifelong geek like myself, and I don't want to spoil everyone else's enjoyment of it. But this whole 50th anniversary thing has been stirring memories in me of previous landmarks in the show's history.
In particular, I've been reminiscing about the 30th anniversary back in 1993. I was only 8 at the time, but I remember it vividly. All the Doctor Who books and videos released that year had a blue ribbon on the cover commemorating the occasion (I've still got them catalogued on shelves, along with all the issues of Doctor Who Magazine released that year), and all of the videos had a special intro where it showed the Doctors' faces morphing into one another. The BBC repeated Planet of the Daleks on Friday evenings throughout November, and each episode was preceded by a short five minute featurette covering a different aspect of the franchise (the missing episodes, the monsters, the assistants, U.N.I.T., the Master, etc). DWM printed a special anniversary comic story called 'Time and Time Again' featuring all seven Doctors.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic1.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20120211032952%2Ft__%2Ftardis%2Fimages%2F2%2F23%2FTime_and_Time_again_-_alternate_timeline.jpg&hash=8a807407628811a36ef65947807ade0103ad45cc)
And there were reports of a feature length straight-to-video special called The Dark Dimension. Ultimately The Dark Dimension was cancelled at the last minute (although Tom Baker was reportedly paid in full for the project), and instead we had to make do with a turgid fifteen minute crossover between Doctor Who and Eastenders called Dimensions in Time. It made the cover of The Radio Times, which also included special glasses so viewers could watch it in 3D. The first episode was shown on Children in Need night, and the second episode was shown on Noel's House Party. I was so excited about it. They had this gimmick where we had to ring in and vote for which Eastenders character we wanted to save the Doctor's assistant at the beginning of episode two.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQCeMIQpFBc
Yes, it was completely lame. But it was new Doctor Who. And I was grateful for it.
The real highlight of the 30th anniversary though was a documentary called 30 Years in the TARDIS. It was released on video in 1994 as More Than 30 Years in the TARDIS and contained lots of extra content that wasn't in the original broadcast. Interestingly, I've got both the 1994 release and my original recording of the televised version, and the shorter televised version actually includes a fair amount of footage that was omitted from the extended VHS release. But regardless of which version you saw, it was the best Doctor Who documentary made up to that point. There was also an unlicensed film called The Airzone Solution which was released to coincide with the 30th anniversary. It starred Jon Pertwee, Peter Davison, Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy and Nicola Bryant. And it sucked.
Bottom line, even though we didn't get the big anniversary story we were hoping for, the 30th anniversary was still a great year for Doctor Who fans. There were plenty of new comics and novels coming out, plus a ton of VHS releases of the classic TV episodes. The show was being repeated on television on Friday evenings, and we had the new documentary and the Children in Need special to give us hope for a revival.
Fast forward to 1998 for the 35th anniversary. By this point interest in the show was waning badly. I remember hoping to see the occasion marked on lots of magazine covers like it had been in 1993, but there just wasn't as much interest. There was a special souvenir issue of Doctor Who Magazine, and an anniversary novel called The Infinity Doctors (it got good reviews, but I didn't think much of it). There was also a goofy comic story called 'Happy Deathday' featuring all eight Doctors, but that wasn't very memorable either. The big VHS release in November that year was a boxed set containing the remaining episodes of The Ice Warriors.
The 40th anniversary in 2003 wasn't much better. There were special Radio Times covers to mark the event, but no new television content. The BBC released another video boxed set, this time containing the surviving episodes from The Reign of Terror, The Faceless Ones and The Web of Fear (amazingly, they've just recently rediscovered most of the missing episodes from this story). There was also a Big Finish audio drama called Zagreus. But that was all.
Of course I severed all links to Who fandom after the atrocious 2005 revival, so I've no idea how the 45th anniversary was celebrated (no offense to anyone who likes the new series, but this is one subject on which I'm pigheadedly close minded and intolerant). Obviously I won't be watching the new 50th anniversary story, as I don't consider anything post-2005 as "proper" Who. But I might celebrate in my own sad living-in-the-past sort of way by watching one story with each of the classic seven Doctors, and then perhaps picking up a copy of The Light at the End, a new audio drama featuring all of the
real Doctors that are still with us (from Tom Baker to Paul McGann). I consider that the true 50th anniversary celebration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A-MAp3ZsYs
It's nice to hear Geoffrey Beevers reprising his role as the Master in that trailer. I've only just found out that his wife, Caroline John (who played Liz Shaw during Pertwee's first series) passed away last year. I'm really saddened to hear that. Liz Shaw was one of my favourite assistants. She was intelligent, classy, well spoken and interesting – basically everything the modern assistants aren't. Personally, I also thought she was one of the most physically attractive of all the companions.
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She was only in four stories (not counting spinoffs like the P.R.O.B.E. series), but they were all classics. Rest in peace. :(
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 18 Aug 2013, 23:32
I've been watching more of the original William Hartnell serials during the current hiatus and gaining even more of an appreciation for the original Doctor. It's easy to just see him as a grumpy old man if you just watch An Unearthly Child and The Daleks, but he is absolutely hilarious in scenes where The Doctor is trying to trick someone or pretend to be someone else, like in The Reign of Terror and, even moreso, The Romans.
Have you seen The Space Museum yet? There's quite a funny scene where he hides inside an empty Dalek and does a vocal impersonation of one. It's good fun.
And yes, The Romans is brilliant. It's up there with The Aztecs as one of the best historical adventures in the show's history. Incidentally, I've got an aunt who was friends with Maureen O'Brien (Vicki) when they were at school together. She was another of my favourite assistants.
Quote from: gordonblu on Mon, 19 Aug 2013, 15:44
The more I see of Hartnell, the more I love his Doctor, specifically those first and second series episodes where he starts out so caustic (I love the original pilot more than the aired one because of this) and then slowly began to soften as a character. I find the historic episodes slightly faster paced and more enjoyable than the Sci-Fi episodes, but I have to admit there is something extra special about that first Dalek episode, it's easy to see why they became so popular. Like many people Tom Baker is my favorite of them all, but I have to say that Hartnell is a strong contender for second favorite now.
Good man. Pertwee and McCoy were my favourite Doctors growing up, but the older I get the more I like Hartnell. I think perhaps it's because he's the Doctor that's furthest from the new versions. I'm especially pleased to hear people are enjoying the purely historical stories. Those are some of my favourites, and I was furious when the people behind the new show announced they wouldn't be doing any. Hacks. >:(
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 10 Nov 2013, 00:04In preparation, I'll be watching The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors, as well as listening to Big Finish's The Light At the End.
I was always disappointed by The Three Doctors. I love the Pertwee era, and it's a thrill to see Hartnell and Troughton reprise their roles (and in colour!), but the story isn't that great. Hartnell was so frail at the time that he could only appear in a few very brief scenes filmed in his garage. Troughton gets a bigger role, and Omega makes for a good villain (trivia: the costume designer on this story, and several others from this era, was James Acheson, who later went on to design the costumes for several Hollywood movies such as Sam Raimi's Spider-Man and Zack Snyder's Man of Steel). I read the Target novelisation before seeing the actual episodes, and the TV version falls short of the book by a wide margin. It's interesting to note that the plot of The Three Doctors was essentially rehashed for the Peter Davison story Time-Flight, except with the Master standing in place of Omega.
The Five Doctors, on the other hand, is a personal favourite of mine. I used to visit Snowden a lot when I was a child, and that's where they filmed the scenes in the Death Zone. So the locations were all very familiar to me. And I think Terrence Dicks did a good job of giving each Doctor their own little narrative, without placing too much of an emphasis on one particular incarnation. It's because of that I'm glad Tom Baker wasn't involved, as his ego would likely have drawn the spotlight away from the other Doctors.
There are actually two versions of The Five Doctors: the original 20th anniversary televised version and a special edition with improved special effects that was released on video in 1995. If possible, I'd recommend watching the special edition as it contains some extra footage missing from the earlier cut. But if you haven't already done so, you should really watch The Deadly Assassin, The Invasion of Time and The Arc of Infinity before watching The Five Doctors, as those earlier stories establish the Doctor's relationship with Borusa and the circumstances leading to his presidency. The Arc of Infinity also features Colin Baker, playing a pre-Doctor villain, and Alfred himself, Michael Gough.
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There's also The Two Doctors, which isn't bad. It's noteworthy for being shot on location in Spain, as well as marking the final appearance of Patrick Troughton as the Second Doctor. It was also the last time the Sontarans featured as the main villains in the original series. It's not a great story, but it's worth seeing. Particularly if you're a fan of the Troughton era.
By the way, if you're going to watch a story from the 25th anniversary, you'd be better off watching Remembrance of the Daleks than Silver Nemesis. SN was the official anniversary story, but Remembrance is far more nostalgic. It has the Seventh Doctor returning to Foreman's Yard in 1963, right where the series started. I'll never understand why they made SN the anniversary story and not Remembrance.
Anyway, sorry for yet another overlong rambling post. Like I say, this is a very touchy evocative subject for me.
Happy to see you back in this thread, SN.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 11 Nov 2013, 16:28
And there were reports of a feature length straight-to-video special called The Dark Dimension. Ultimately The Dark Dimension was cancelled at the last minute (although Tom Baker was reportedly paid in full for the project), and instead we had to make do with a turgid fifteen minute crossover between Doctor Who and Eastenders called Dimensions in Time.
I actually got a hold of the script to this. I don't know how much you've read about it, but it's definitely better than Dimensions in Time and an enjoyable adventure.
However- and here's a big part of why it wouldn't have been made- it's essentially a 4th Doctor comeback story, with the other Doctors reduced to cameos. Some of the actors, particularly Colin Baker (whose short five minute role would've had him in a courtroom...again, though this time not as the one on trial), were unhappy with this and I'm not surprised.
Pertwee would've only been in one scene meeting Tom Baker in an "afterlife"-type place for a pep talk, Davison and Colin Baker would've had one short sequence each, and McCoy would've been found dead in the opening, with Ace being the main companion to Tom Baker throughout the movie until he resets time and returns to becoming McCoy again at the end.
Again, I enjoyed it, but it naturally feels more like a celebration of Baker's Doctor than all of the Doctors. It might've made a nice 4th Doctor Big Finish audio, but since Nicholas Courtney has passed on and the Brigadier had a huge role in the story, I don't think it'll happen.
It's ironic, though, that after all that, Tom Baker ended up getting the smallest role out of all the Doctors in Dimensions in Time.
QuoteBut I might celebrate in my own sad living-in-the-past sort of way by watching one story with each of the classic seven Doctors, and then perhaps picking up a copy of The Light at the End, a new audio drama featuring all of the real Doctors that are still with us (from Tom Baker to Paul McGann). I consider that the true 50th anniversary celebration.
I'm happy to hear that you're considering The Light at the End. I purchased it from the Big Finish the day it went on sale, but I'm saving it for the actual 50th Anniversary. If you do pick it up and give it a listen, I'd love to hear your thoughts and we can discuss in this thread.
QuoteI've only just found out that his wife, Caroline John (who played Liz Shaw during Pertwee's first series) passed away last year. I'm really saddened to hear that. Liz Shaw was one of my favourite assistants. She was intelligent, classy, well spoken and interesting – basically everything the modern assistants aren't. Personally, I also thought she was one of the most physically attractive of all the companions.
[...]
She was only in four stories (not counting spinoffs like the P.R.O.B.E. series), but they were all classics. Rest in peace. :(
I'm surprised Liz Shaw was in so few. I've only seen Spearhead and I'm disappointed to read that she'll only be in three more, though it was nice to see her with Pertwee again in Dimensions in Time.
Sadly, I also wasn't aware that Caroline John and Geoffrey Beevers were married until after her death. Rest in peace.
QuoteHave you seen The Space Museum yet? There's quite a funny scene where he hides inside an empty Dalek and does a vocal impersonation of one. It's good fun.
Funny enough, I just saw that episode the other day! I'm going to finish the rest of the serial this week. Hartnell's laugh can't be topped.
QuoteIncidentally, I've got an aunt who was friends with Maureen O'Brien (Vicki) when they were at school together. She was another of my favourite assistants.
I've noticed that The Space Museum is definitely a strong story for Vicki. The part with her instigating the revolution is something I can't ever see her predecessor doing. (Granted, Susan Foreman will always be a special part of the series since she's The Doctor's granddaughter and was the first companion to leave, but I can understand why Carole Ann Ford was frustrated with always having to play her as a screaming teenage girl).
QuoteI read the Target novelisation before seeing the actual episodes, and the TV version falls short of the book by a wide margin.
Thanks for your thoughts on the previous multi-Doctor specials.
Would you recommend reading the novelization then? I saw it available recently as an ebook, as well as bunch of other novelizations of the classic serials. I've mainly considered reading the ones for the incomplete serials, just to get the full story for them, but if you think The Three Doctors novelization is better than the televised version, then I'll pick it up.
Quote
By the way, if you're going to watch a story from the 25th anniversary, you'd be better off watching Remembrance of the Daleks than Silver Nemesis. SN was the official anniversary story, but Remembrance is far more nostalgic. It has the Seventh Doctor returning to Foreman's Yard in 1963, right where the series started. I'll never understand why they made SN the anniversary story and not Remembrance.
As a matter of fact, Remembrance is the only McCoy one I've seen so far. The return to Totters Lane (and the backstory of what The Doctor was doing there in the first place back in An Unearthly Child) makes it a natural anniversary story, so I don't get why they didn't pick it for the 25th either. The final confrontation with Davros felt like a defining moment for McCoy's Doctor.
SN, are you curious at all about the upcoming William Hartnell biopic, An Adventure in Space and Time, that'll be premiering next week? It's definitely on my list of things to check out during this anniversary month.
Silver Nemesis was the 25th anniversary story because a 25th anniversary is called the "Silver Anniversary". I personally haven't seen all of that particular episode yet (just a small part back when PBS aired it many years ago), but I do agree that "Remembrance" would have been more suitable. Because we don't get BBC America, we won't be able to watch the 50th right away, but we're planning to watch "the Three Doctors", "the Five Doctors", "Dimensions in Time" and try to time watching the pilot episode around 5 or so (we're still off because of the time difference, but are going to pretend there's some "timey-wimey" intervention ;D).
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 11 Nov 2013, 19:16
I'm happy to hear that you're considering The Light at the End. I purchased it from the Big Finish the day it went on sale, but I'm saving it for the actual 50th Anniversary. If you do pick it up and give it a listen, I'd love to hear your thoughts and we can discuss in this thread.
It's funny, but discussing the old show here, as well as with several other people who've asked me about it recently, has reawakened my interest in the original series. I haven't bought any Doctor Who merchandise since around 2005 or 2006, though other people have bought some for me as gifts. But today I preordered a copy of The Light at the End. I've also ordered the DVDs of some Bill Hartnell stories that I currently only have on video. I'll keep my original VHS copies for sentimental reasons, but it'll be nice to have some restored versions to watch on DVD. Provided the Royal Mail delivers the CD on time, I'll listen to it on the 23rd. I'll make sure to post my thoughts on it afterwards. I've always liked Nicholas Briggs, so I've got high hopes for it.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 11 Nov 2013, 19:16
I actually got a hold of the script to this. I don't know how much you've read about it, but it's definitely better than Dimensions in Time and an enjoyable adventure.
I read a treatment of The Dark Dimension back in the late nineties, and like you I remember thinking it placed too disproportionate an emphasis on Tom Baker. I also hated the way Pertwee and McCoy were sidelined and I didn't like the subplot about the Brigadier's son. But I thought the redesigns for some of the classic monsters were pretty cool.
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Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 11 Nov 2013, 19:16
I'm surprised Liz Shaw was in so few. I've only seen Spearhead and I'm disappointed to read that she'll only be in three more, though it was nice to see her with Pertwee again in Dimensions in Time.
You're in for a treat! Season 7 was always one of my favourite seasons. There may only be four stories, but apart from Spearhead in Space, they're all seven episodes long. The Silurians and Inferno in particular are both excellent. And the cliff-hanger for episode 6 of Inferno is widely regarded as one of the best and bleakest in the show's history. Certainly I always found Inferno to be one of the creepiest Doctor Who stories ever. There's just something about the setting and atmosphere that always got to me.
But it is sad that Liz didn't appear in more stories. She makes cameos in The Five Doctors (sort of) and Dimensions in Time, and she got her own series of four spinoff films in the nineties written by Mark Gatiss (they weren't very good and I wouldn't recommend them). But it would have been nice if she could have appeared in one more season of the original series.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 11 Nov 2013, 19:16Funny enough, I just saw that episode the other day! I'm going to finish the rest of the serial this week. Hartnell's laugh can't be topped.
Out of interest, are you watching the Hartnell stories in chronological order? If so, that must mean you've got The Chase next! That's quite possibly my favourite Dalek story ever.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 11 Nov 2013, 19:16I've noticed that The Space Museum is definitely a strong story for Vicki. The part with her instigating the revolution is something I can't ever see her predecessor doing. (Granted, Susan Foreman will always be a special part of the series since she's The Doctor's granddaughter and was the first companion to leave, but I can understand why Carole Ann Ford was frustrated with always having to play her as a screaming teenage girl).
I like Susan, and as you say, she has an important role in the show's history. But I can't deny I like Vicki more. People complained during the Fifth Doctor era that having three assistants made the TARDIS feel too crowded. But I loved the dynamic between the Doctor, Ian, Barbara and Susan/Vicki. The only other time it worked having so many assistants was with Polly, Ben and Jaimie during the Troughton era.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 11 Nov 2013, 19:16Would you recommend reading the novelization then? I saw it available recently as an ebook, as well as bunch of other novelizations of the classic serials. I've mainly considered reading the ones for the incomplete serials, just to get the full story for them, but if you think The Three Doctors novelization is better than the televised version, then I'll pick it up.
I'd recommend watching the TV story first. The discrepancies between the books and the TV episodes were usually a matter of scale. The writers of the books would describe these epic set pieces and action scenes that the TV show couldn't possibly live up to.
Here's an extract from chapter eight of The Three Doctors novelisation by Terrance Dicks:
Omega's laugh echoed around the room. "You wish to fight the will of Omega? Then you shall!"
Suddenly they were –
elsewhere. It was not so much that they moved, as that the room moved from around them. The Doctor blinked. He was standing alone, in the centre of an arena, rather like those used for games in the time of the Caesars. It was surrounded by high stone walls, unbroken except for a simple viewing stand, a kind of royal box. There, like some fantastic Roman emperor, stood Omega. Beside him, unable to move a muscle, was Doctor Two.
Overhead was the threatening purple sky of Omega's planet. Underfoot was the familiar grey sand. Into some corner of the Doctor's mind came the thought that, with the chance to create a world, it was surely a waste of your opportunities to create such an unattractive one. From behind the Doctor came a grating sound. He whirled round. On the far side of the arena a door had opened. From it shambled – what? You could give it many names, thought the Doctor, as he backed away. Demon, Ghoul, Monster. Any of the horrors that rose from the black depths of the imagination. It was a good eight feet tall, humanoid in shape, apparently made of some substance like smooth black granite. The powerful limbs were knotted with muscle. Hands and feet ended in long evil talons. Small pointed ears clung to the ape-like head, and fangs gleamed inside the slathering mouth. The slanted eyes glowed a fiery red. As the thing came closer, the Doctor could smell the reek of sulphur on its breath. Suddenly something about that hideous face struck him as familiar. In a curious way, it looked like Omega. Naturally enough, thought the Doctor, since in a sense it
was Omega. In this world Omega's thoughts and feelings were real, and this ghastly creature was an incarnation of all the rage and hatred that Omega felt towards the Doctor.
Now imagine you're a kid of about thirteen when you read this. How stoked would you be to see this scene play out in the original episode? The images of the coliseum, the dark purple sky, Omega presiding over the battle like an emperor, the Second Doctor standing frozen beside him, the eight foot tall monster with the claws, fangs and glowing red eyes. It sounds so epic. The ensuing battle scene is equally impressive. But then you see the TV version... and it's nothing like this.
If you hadn't had your expectations raised by the book, you wouldn't be disappointed. And I've heard similar stories from other fans who were disappointed by a particular story because they'd read the novelisation first. The worst instance for me was The Day of the Daleks. It took me years to track down a copy of the video for that one. Eventually, when I was about fourteen, I was able to order one from Australia. But by then I'd already read the book to whet my appetite, and I couldn't help but be disappointed when the action scenes didn't live up to my expectations.
The culprit, once again, was Terrance Dicks. His descriptions of the battles and martial arts scenes were far more impressive than anything in the actual TV story. There's one scene in particular, when the Doctor and Jo are escaping from a Dalek compound on a three-wheeled motorcycle, where he really exaggerated the action. Here's an extract from Dicks' description of the sequence in chapter nine of his novelisation:
Jo hung tightly to the Doctor as the tricycle sped across the ruined landscape. The little vehicle seemed to be able to cross virtually anything, and they flashed over ruined buildings, occasional bits of road and once even the scrubby and patched remains of a field.
All around was nothing but destruction and devastation, with here and there the jutting towers of the Dalek compounds breaking the horizon. The Doctor pulled up at the top of a hill and looked round. Three or four more giant tricycles ridden by Ogrons were coming from the compound they had just left.
"Can't we outrun them?" asked Jo. "We've got a good start."
"We might," said the Doctor. "But what about those—and those?" He indicated the other compounds in front of them. From each one was speeding a group of more tricycles.
"We're surrounded!" said Jo anxiously. "What are we going to do, Doctor?"
"Only one thing we can do," said the Doctor cheerfully, "give them a run for their money. Ever wondered how the fox feels, Jo? Hold tight!"
Jo closed her eyes and hung on to the Doctor as hard as she could. The rest of the journey was a nightmare. She saw it in glimpses as she opened her eyes from time to time, only to close them again hurriedly. The Doctor did incredible things with the giant trike, weaving it in and out of the rubble and ruins. Jo could have sworn that once they drove up the side of a house and dropped down the other. They zoomed along the tops of walls, leaped over gaps in the ruins, and ploughed through weed-choked ditches. But every time Jo opened her eyes the circle of their pursuers was drawing in closer.
Again, another action packed sequence. It almost seems like something out of a James Cameron movie. But if you watch the television story after reading this description, the scene feels extremely underwhelming. Basically the Doctor and Jo drive about fifty yards on a tricycle while four or five Ogrons slowly lumber after them on foot. There are no pursuing vehicles, no leaping over ditches, no driving up the walls of buildings. Zilch.
Don't get me wrong, I love Terrance Dicks' Doctor Who stories; both his television scripts and his books. But he and some of the other writers did instil rather unrealistic expectations in their readers with their adaptations of the TV stories.
That being said, the Target novelizations are definitely worth reading. I spent much of my childhood scouring second-hand book stores for first editions. And by time I was eight I'd built up a huge collection, which I then used to earn my collector's badge at the cub scouts. The other series of books – the Virgins Books series and the BBC Books series – aren't as good, in my opinion. They're original stories, but they're geared towards adults and are mostly written by Doctor Who fans. Consequently they have a lot of adult content (sex, strong violence, drugs, and in some cases strong swearing) which is inconsistent with the tone of the original series. I used to read the New/Missing Adventures of Doctor Who novels voraciously, and some of them were very good. But looking back on those series now, I much prefer the Target novelizations. You should be able to get the Target books pretty cheap now. They've been reprinted dozens of times.
One of the best writers for the Target series was none other than Ian Marter, who played Harry Sullivan during the Tom Baker era and Lieutenant John Andrews in The Carnival of Monsters. You probably already know about this, but during the seventies Marter and Baker collaborated on a script for a feature film called Doctor Who Meets Scratchman. At one point fans sent in money to fund the project following a suggestion made by Baker on a radio show, but he was forced to return the money for legal reasons. Nowadays they could crowd fund such a project with no difficulty, but back then it wasn't so simple. Like The Dark Dimension, it's one of those interesting what-might-have-been projects fans like to dig up information about.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 11 Nov 2013, 19:16As a matter of fact, Remembrance is the only McCoy one I've seen so far. The return to Totters Lane (and the backstory of what The Doctor was doing there in the first place back in An Unearthly Child) makes it a natural anniversary story, so I don't get why they didn't pick it for the 25th either. The final confrontation with Davros felt like a defining moment for McCoy's Doctor.
Remembrance is probably McCoy's best story. Most people say Michael Wisher was the best Davros, but Terry Molloy was always my favourite. He was the first Doctor Who actor I ever met, and he played the role in both Colin Baker's best story (Revelation of the Daleks) and McCoy's (Remembrance).
Have you see Revelation of the Daleks? It's one of the darkest, most violent Doctor Who stories ever. And it's awesome. There's one scene in particular which disturbed the hell out of me when I first saw it (I was only about 7 at the time) where a young woman searching for her missing father finds out what Davros has done to him. I won't spoil it in case you haven't seen it yet, but trust me when I say it's disturbing. Especially for a kids' show.
Quote from: gordonblu on Tue, 12 Nov 2013, 06:50
Silver Nemesis was the 25th anniversary story because a 25th anniversary is called the "Silver Anniversary".
True, but there's nothing in the actual story relating to silver or the 25th anniversary. Unless you count the Cybermen themselves as being silver. The plot actually revolves around a metal called validium, which I would say is more of a cream colour than a pure silver.
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They could just as easily have called Remembrance of the Daleks 'Silver Remembrance' and it would have made more sense; especially since the Daleks were also celebrating their silver anniversary in 1988, whereas the Cybermen were only 22 (having debuted in the 1966 story The Tenth Planet).
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Mon, 11 Nov 2013, 19:16SN, are you curious at all about the upcoming William Hartnell biopic, An Adventure in Space and Time, that'll be premiering next week? It's definitely on my list of things to check out during this anniversary month.
I'm not sure if I'll watch it yet. I've read some biographies of Hartnell, and the health-related circumstances of his departure from the show are very sad. I remember his wife recalling how he couldn't bear to watch the series once the other actors took over. He'd try watching it but would get so upset seeing someone else playing his role that he'd have to switch it off. If the new drama depicts his disintegration, it might be a bit too sad. I'm not sure I'd want to watch that.
I'm also not sure about Mark Gatiss writing it. Gatiss is very hit and miss for me. Some of his writing is brilliant: for example, his New Adventures of Doctor Who novel Nightshade, and his 2010 adaptation of H. G. Welles' The First Men in the Moon. But he's also written some stuff I strongly disliked. So I'm not sure if I'll watch it. If I don't, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. Let me know if it's a hack job or a worthwhile tribute.
By the way, have you seen much of the Troughton era yet? If so, what do you think of it? Do you have a favourite Second Doctor story?
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 12 Nov 2013, 20:28
Quote from: gordonblu on Tue, 12 Nov 2013, 06:50
Silver Nemesis was the 25th anniversary story because a 25th anniversary is called the "Silver Anniversary".
True, but there's nothing in the actual story relating to silver or the 25th anniversary. Unless you count the Cybermen themselves as being silver. The plot actually revolves around a metal called validium, which I would say is more of a cream colour than a pure silver.
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They could just as easily have called Remembrance of the Daleks 'Silver Remembrance' and it would have made more sense; especially since the Daleks were also celebrating their silver anniversary in 1988, whereas the Cybermen were only 22 (having debuted in the 1966 story The Tenth Planet).
I agree with you, I was just explaining John Nathan Turner's "logic" is all.
Quite. But alas, logic was all too often overlooked during Nathan-Turner's reign. Who, if anyone, can comprehend the logic behind that ghastly coat he made poor Colin Baker wear? ::)
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Tue, 12 Nov 2013, 20:28
Out of interest, are you watching the Hartnell stories in chronological order? If so, that must mean you've got The Chase next! That's quite possibly my favourite Dalek story ever.
Yep! I'm excited as I've heard that's one of the best from the Hartnell era.
As a side note, I realize it's not necessary to go chronological (and as you can tell, I've managed to see adventures from the other classic Doctors in between), but watching it this way is the closest I can get to experiencing how the show grew and evolved during that era.
QuoteHave you see Revelation of the Daleks? It's one of the darkest, most violent Doctor Who stories ever. And it's awesome. There's one scene in particular which disturbed the hell out of me when I first saw it (I was only about 7 at the time) where a young woman searching for her missing father finds out what Davros has done to him. I won't spoil it in case you haven't seen it yet, but trust me when I say it's disturbing. Especially for a kids' show.
Haven't seen it yet. I'll keep this in mind, in anticipation.
Quote
By the way, have you seen much of the Troughton era yet? If so, what do you think of it? Do you have a favourite Second Doctor story?
I haven't seen much yet. I do own the "Lost in Time" DVD collection that has the remaining footage of some of the lost episodes and I've only seen Tomb of the Cybermen so far, which of course is a classic, with several memorable scenes including the "they just sleep, in my head" scene with Victoria and the climax where he pretends to praise the villain's scheme. It's fortuitous that they found Web of Fear and Enemy of the World this year, since I'll be able to check those out when I get around to going deeper in the Troughton era. I do think it's a shame, though, that Power of the Daleks remains mostly lost since that was the true test to see if the regeneration plot element would work.
Do you have a favorite Second Doctor story?
Also, curious, do you have a favorite Master?
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 13 Nov 2013, 02:01Yep! I'm excited as I've heard that's one of the best from the Hartnell era.
As a side note, I realize it's not necessary to go chronological (and as you can tell, I've managed to see adventures from the other classic Doctors in between), but watching it this way is the closest I can get to experiencing how the show grew and evolved during that era.
That's a good idea. Though it might be tiresome to get through some of the weaker seasons later on.
And yes, The Chase is marvellous. I'll wait until you've seen it before commenting on it in more depth, but it really is a 5/5 classic. I'm sure you'll like it.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 13 Nov 2013, 02:01I haven't seen much yet. I do own the "Lost in Time" DVD collection that has the remaining footage of some of the lost episodes and I've only seen Tomb of the Cybermen so far, which of course is a classic, with several memorable scenes including the "they just sleep, in my head" scene with Victoria and the climax where he pretends to praise the villain's scheme. It's fortuitous that they found Web of Fear and Enemy of the World this year, since I'll be able to check those out when I get around to going deeper in the Troughton era. I do think it's a shame, though, that Power of the Daleks remains mostly lost since that was the true test to see if the regeneration plot element would work.
Do you have a favorite Second Doctor story?
I just watched The Tomb of the Cybermen again earlier this week. It's a brilliant story. But it is tragic that, up until recently, there were only six complete stories from the Troughton era. Luckily we've now got The Enemy of the World in its entirety and most of The Web of Fear. I've watched the earlier surviving episodes from both of those stories many times, so I'm really excited about seeing the rest of them. I know they're available on iTunes, but I'm holding out for the DVD releases.
The Web of Fear is one of those stories revered as a classic by people who watched the show back in the sixties. It's been heavily referenced in the books, comics, video games and other spinoffs, and yet no one below the age of 45 has seen it until now. I can't wait to watch it!
But my absolute favourite Second Doctor story, barring the possibility of The Web of Fear usurping its place, is The Mind Robber. The last two episodes of this serial were the first episodes of Doctor Who I ever saw, back when they were repeated on television in the early nineties. But that's not why it's my favourite. It's a very, very creepy adventure with a surreal, nightmarish atmosphere similar to that of The Celestial Toymaker. It's set in a world populated by characters brought to life from works of fiction. There's even a ray gun-toting masked superhero called the Karkus, who seems to have been inspired by King Features Syndicate characters like Flash Gordon and the Phantom. The writers used a clever device of having the literary characters speak using only lines from their original texts. If you're an avid bookworm, like me, then you should get a kick out of it. And as I say, it's very creepy.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 13 Nov 2013, 02:01
Also, curious, do you have a favorite Master?
Roger Delgado. Hands down. He was
The Master, and no one else even came close. Ainley was good too, and I liked Beevers' performance in the Big Finish dramas. Eric Roberts was ok. But Delgado was by far the best in my opinion.
In his first two stories he's depicted very much as an intergalactic mob boss. He dresses in smart suits and lets his henchmen do the dirty work while he sits back in his office or limousine and relaxes. He was very reserved and intimidating back then. And his TCE (Tissue Compression Eliminator) was one of the nastiest weapons ever devised.
From The Claws of Axos onwards he becomes a lot more hands-on and physical. There's a great scene in The Claws of Axos where he jumps off a bridge onto a moving lorry, climbs along the roof, swings down onto the side and hypnotises the driver through the wing mirror. He also had plenty of hand-to-hand fight scenes against Pertwee's Doctor. Usually they were very brief: the Master pulls a weapon and the Doctor kicks it out of his hand, then floors him with a karate chop. But there were exceptions, such as the classic sword fight they have in The Sea Devils (my all time number one favourite Doctor Who story). They also had some good vehicular chases: motorboat against motorboat in The Sea Devils, and spaceship against spaceship in Frontier in Space.
He wasn't just a one-dimensional villain either. There were times he displayed affection towards his enemies. And he could be very suave and charming when the the occasion called for it. For example, when he woos Queen Galleia (played by the beautiful Ingrid Pitt) in The Time Monster. There are also some nice moments of humour involving Delgado's Master, but they're far too numerous to list.
I also liked the fact there was a sense of continuity linking his appearances. If one serial ended with him being captured, that would be addressed at the beginning of his next story. It became an ongoing arc that helped define Pertwee's tenure as the classic era it was. There were plans to produce a story that would have concluded this arc, but Delgado's tragic and untimely death prevented that from happening. Despite playing such an evil character on screen, Delgado was reputedly an extremely nice and affable man in real life. The whole cast and crew were very fond of him. He was particularly good friends with Pertwee, who cited his death as one of the factors influencing his decision to leave the show. It was a sad loss for the series.
After Delgado, I'd say Ainley was the second best Master. Then Pratt/Beevers. And finally Roberts. I don't rate any of the new upstarts.
What do you think of the two Doctor Who movies from the sixties, BatmAngelus?
And as a matter of interest, are you familiar with the Quatermass series?
Great! Looking forward to discussing with you when I get to them.
I haven't seen any of the classic Master serials yet, so I thought I'd ask your opinion, but just from the clips I've seen online, Delgado definitely seems to be my type of villain.
QuoteWhat do you think of the two Doctor Who movies from the sixties, BatmAngelus?
I agree with an earlier post of yours that Daleks' Invasion Earth 2150 AD has the benefit of a bigger production budget and could convey a large-scale invasion better than the original.
Other than that, I have to say that I don't find them to be all that memorable, mainly because I think the movies' TARDIS crew (or shall I say Tardis crew) pales in comparison to the TV crew.
Peter Cushing is a legend and I know that he's going off of a different characterization, but I can't help but find myself missing Hartnell's Doctor when I watch the films. And I'm not even going to go into Dr. Who and The Daleks's Ian...
QuoteAnd as a matter of interest, are you familiar with the Quatermass series?
I've heard of it, but haven't looked into it yet. You recommend?
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 10 Nov 2013, 23:59
Quote from: Cobblepot4Mayor on Sun, 10 Nov 2013, 19:09
I believe the Tenth Doctor and Rose may have their memories wiped in some way by the end. Just a nice clean way of rounding everything off and giving us an adventure we (or they) never knew they even had.
Perhaps so. The 10th Doctor wiped Donna's mind clean in Series 4, and it was a very specific wipe. Perhaps this could happen again via the 11th Doctor, though keeping the John Hurt Doctor content in his mind, as it is something he needs to know and guard.
I'm thinking this 10th Doctor could be from between The Runaway Bride and Smith and Jones? This explains the "allonsy!", costume choice and why he is travelling alone.
I actually think you may be mistaken here. Your theory works but my evidence is the look of Tennant's Tardis. They've tried to replicate it's dark green tone it had in the first two series. By the time of The Runaway Bride they had lit the set up with a bright, golden lighting system. So it's still possible it might be series 2 Tenth Doctor and Rose.
I really hope so as I love the idea of going right back to the earliest days of the Tenth Doctor again (my favourite period). It was so long ago it's become different enough to explore again. I wouldn't want the Tenth Doctor coming from towards the end of his time.
The BBC released this latest prequel minisode, The Night of the Doctor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U3jrS-uhuo
I'll wait for others to watch before commenting. :)
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 13 Nov 2013, 22:50Other than that, I have to say that I don't find them to be all that memorable, mainly because I think the movies' TARDIS crew (or shall I say Tardis crew) pales in comparison to the TV crew.
The television crew were such well developed, well written and well acted characters, I suppose it's impossible to replicate that in a 90 minute movie. Still, I've always wondered what it might have been like if Cushing had played the Doctor as a darker and more serious character, similar to his awesome portrayal of J Van Helsing in the Hammer movies.
Anyway, sorry, I forgot we'd already discussed the films earlier in this thread. Memory like a sieve.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Wed, 13 Nov 2013, 22:50QuoteAnd as a matter of interest, are you familiar with the Quatermass series?
I've heard of it, but haven't looked into it yet. You recommend?
I think you might enjoy it. It's a British science fiction series (all of the serials were remade as feature films by Hammer) about a British scientist combating alien threats. Some people see it as a precursor to Doctor Who; a sort of older brother, in the same way Twin Peaks is sometimes described as being an older brother of The X-Files.
It doesn't have as much action as Doctor Who and it skewers towards an older demographic. By modern standards, the original serials can seem a tad slow paced. But they're very well written by creator Nigel Kneale - who incidentally was invited to write for Doctor Who, but declined. The influence the show had on certain Doctor Who stories – most notably during the Pertwee era – is very obvious. And there are numerous references to Quatermass and the British Rocket Group in the Doctor Who novels. In fact they're both mentioned in Remembrance of the Daleks during one of the scenes in the cafe. So while I doubt Kneale himself would have approved (he hated Doctor Who), there is some evidence to suggest the two franchises might take place in the same universe.
If you're looking for an entry point into the series, I'd recommend the film of Quatermass and the Pit (1967) as a good place to start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JExwo9PMw94
I know you're currently working your way through the Hartnell Doctor Who stories, and I don't want to distract you from that. I just thought I'd throw the recommendation out there. It's good, intelligent and well written British sci-fi. Most young people probably wouldn't appreciate it now, but I think you would.
Cool! I'll check it out.
QuoteStill, I've always wondered what it might have been like if Cushing had played the Doctor as a darker and more serious character, similar to his awesome portrayal of J Van Helsing in the Hammer movies.
Same here.
I also feel that the black-and-white look gives a strong sense of eeriness to everything in those episodes. It's hard to feel the same way when you watch the scenes being replicated in brightly lit Technicolor in the Cushing films.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Thu, 14 Nov 2013, 18:56
The BBC released this latest prequel minisode, The Night of the Doctor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U3jrS-uhuo
I'll wait for others to watch before commenting. :)
LOVED IT!!!
I know some people who wish HE wasn't considered a canonical Doctor, but I find his outing influenced the new series immensely and am glad HE has been finally legitimized by Moffat and Company. Not surprised he has short hair here, he hated his wig.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Thu, 14 Nov 2013, 18:56
The BBC released this latest prequel minisode, The Night of the Doctor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U3jrS-uhuo
I'll wait for others to watch before commenting. :)
Ok, I'll admit I watched that. But only because I inferred who was in it based on gordonblu's comment. I've never considered
him to be apocryphal. Well, maybe I did a little at first, but I accepted him once I'd listened to his performance in Storm Warning. So it's nice to finally see him back after waiting for seventeen years. I was only 10 when I watched his debut in 1996, and now I've watched his swansong at the age of 28. Funny how time flies. It was cool that they bothered to reference characters from the audio dramas too. And it was also interesting to see the Sisterhood of Karn return from The Brain of Morbius. I didn't see that coming.
On the down side, I hated the suggestion that Time Lords can regenerate into a different sex. I understand this is a modern contrivance they've introduced in the new series to appeal to small minded politically correct people who think every white male character needs to be minoritised and turned into a woman for the sake of equality. But it completely goes against over forty years of pre-2005 canon.
Prior to the BBC Wales revival, it was established that if a Time Lord is born male, he remains male in his subsequent incarnations. Likewise a Time Lady – be she Romana, Flavia or any of the numerous female Gallifreyans featured in the novels and comics – will remain female throughout her thirteen lives. Hence the distinction between a 'Time Lord' and a 'Time Lady'. There was a lengthy article in an old issue of Doctor Who Magazine covering this very subject. But the new writers don't give a toss about honouring their predecessors' ideas. They'll reference them for the sake of fan service, but they won't honour them. It's things like this that remind me why I hate the new series so much.
Once again, I'd like to apologise to anyone who likes the new series. I don't like being the downer in this thread, but this franchise has been very dear to me from a very young age. I appreciate the fact that everyone on this site has displayed great tolerance towards my intolerance.
Just a head's up. Starting tomorrow, BBC Radio 4 Extra will be broadcasting Doctor Who audio readings and dramas every evening for the next week. There's a full list of the scheduled programmes here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b009szrh/broadcasts/upcoming
For people outside the UK, you should be able to tune in using the iPlayer on the website.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 15 Nov 2013, 19:10
On the down side, I hated the suggestion that Time Lords can regenerate into a different sex. I understand this is a modern contrivance they've introduced in the new series to appeal to small minded politically correct people who think every white male character needs to be minoritised and turned into a woman for the sake of equality. But it completely goes against over forty years of pre-2005 canon.
Prior to the BBC Wales revival, it was established that if a Time Lord is born male, he remains male in his subsequent incarnations. Likewise a Time Lady – be she Romana, Flavia or any of the numerous female Gallifreyans featured in the novels and comics – will remain female throughout her thirteen lives.
You are not alone. I don't want this to become a back and forth thing but in short, I am with you here 100 per cent. The whole 'man or woman' thing is just so, so annoying.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Fri, 15 Nov 2013, 19:10
Once again, I'd like to apologise to anyone who likes the new series. I don't like being the downer in this thread, but this franchise has been very dear to me from a very young age. I appreciate the fact that everyone on this site has displayed great tolerance towards my intolerance.
No worries. I can become weird, argumentative etc about things too. I am a fan of the relaunch, though will gladly launch into aspects I have not liked. It's not all roses.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 17 Nov 2013, 09:14You are not alone. I don't want this to become a back and forth thing but in short, I am with you here 100 per cent. The whole 'man or woman' thing is just so, so annoying.
It's very encouraging to know there are fans of the new series who also oppose the idea. With a little luck, the show writers will take notice and avoid going in that direction. Fingers crossed.
Quote from: The Dark Knight on Sun, 17 Nov 2013, 09:14No worries. I can become weird, argumentative etc about things too. I am a fan of the relaunch, though will gladly launch into aspects I have not liked. It's not all roses.
Cheers, mate. I'd hate for my views on the new series to put anyone off discussing it on this site. This thread is here for both the old
and new shows, after all. And I sincerely hope everyone enjoys the anniversary as much as possible, regardless of which era they're a fan of.
I was looking through the TV and radio guide earlier and there's an amazing amount of Doctor Who-related material being broadcast over the next week. I think a lot, if not all of it, should be available through BBC America too.
At 9 pm on Thursday on BBC 2 there's the ninety minute drama An Adventure in Space a Time depicting the show's inception and early years.
At 10 pm that same night, on BBC Radio 2, is The Blagger's Guide to Doctor Who. Immediately after this, at 10:30 pm, there's another thirty minute radio programme called Who is the Doctor?
On Friday evening, between 9:30 pm and 10:30 on BBC 2, there's Me, You and Doctor Who: A Culture Show Special.
There are also some things on BBC Three related to the new series, plus the ongoing BBC Radio 4 Extra programmes that are on every evening this week. I'd say this is easily the biggest anniversary celebration since the 30th.
The first audio reading is now up on the BBC Radio 4 Extra website – William Russell reading David Whitacker's 1964 novelisation of The Daleks. I've got a fourth edition copy of this book from 1980, and one thing that always struck me about it is the way it ignores the events of An Unearthly Child. Instead the early chapters portray a completely different version of how Ian and Barbara met the Doctor and Susan. The audio version is divided up into ten separate episodes, which admittedly is a bit long. But I'd recommend listening to at least the first two, if only to hear the alternate background story Whitacker gave to explain how the TARDIS crew met.
Tonight's audio programme is an original story featuring the Seventh Doctor called Protect and Survive. This one's new to me, so I can't comment on its quality yet.
I've now decided I
am going to watch An Adventure in Time and Space on Thursday, largely due to the positive response from William Hartnell's granddaughter, Jessica Carney. Carney has appeared in several Doctor Who documentaries over the years and she wrote a biography of her grandfather titled Who's There? The Life and Career of William Hartnell. She's always been very protective of her grandfather's legacy, so her description of the new drama as "a wonderful tribute" lays to rest any chances of it being a hack job.
(https://www.batman-online.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F71083000%2Fjpg%2F_71083741_space-and-time.jpg&hash=b0c51171a4bce14f902db007dda501cf5c40bb18)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEwikIhEZrE
I think this may well prove to be the highlight of the anniversary. :)
Night of the Doctor's been online long enough that I can post about it:
Only a year and a half ago, I was at the Gallifrey One convention where fans kept asking if McGann would be willing to return, even if it was just a cameo to shoot his regeneration. He said he would love to, as long as he didn't have to wear that damn wig again, but he hadn't been called by anyone at the BBC to do it.
I remembered thinking how unfortunate it was that we might never see him return. I bought the Big Finish audio Zagreus at the convention, then ended up buying many more online. Neverland. The Chimes at Midnight. The whole first season with him and Lucie Miller. And his latest one, Dark Eyes.
I listened to most of these while I was recovering from chemotherapy this year. I was too weak to do much of anything but watch movies/TV or listen to these audios. So, for me, at that time, McGann
was the voice of the Doctor.
I even tracked down an edition of the Doctor Who Magazine comic strip The Flood, which would've featured the McGann-into-Eccleston regeneration if Russell T. Davies and the BBC hadn't said no. Earlier this year, I was naturally disappointed when McGann told people that he would not appear in the 50th Anniversary Special (and technically, he wasn't lying). It felt like he was being punished, unfairly, for his association with the 1996 movie.
But it turns out I was wrong about that. Flash forward to this week when Night of the Doctor hits the Internet- on McGann's birthday, no less (
and the day my copy of The Light At The End just happened to come in through the mail)- and there he is, with a grand entrance!
The wig's gone, just like he wanted. The costume's went through a suitable update. A nice mix of the 1996 movie costume with the war-torn new costume on the Dark Eyes audio cover.
Not to mention, the personality is dead-on with the characterization from the Big Finish audios, right down to the occasional mocking ("Keepers of the flame of utter boredom..") and his willingness to sacrifice himself over others, to the point of him dying because a would-be companion refused to be saved. Of course, hearing him say all the Big Finish companions' names was another treat, since Charley, Lucie, and Molly were all companions I'd met and followed during my recovery.
This was far better than seeing him regenerate in a comic strip, as we could've gotten in 2005. McGann got to return to the role in live action, 17 years later, and perform the end of the 8th Doctor- not in a brief cameo in another Doctor's episode, but in his own adventure.
The 8th Doctor- the only Doctor I've met in person, the one I followed so many times during chemo- got to return in this special 50th Anniversary year.
As someone attached to McGann's Doctor, I can't help but smile from ear to ear that they pulled this off, kept it secret, tied it into the current storyline, referenced his Big Finish work, and gave his character a fitting end.
All in less than 8 minutes ;).
QuoteThe first audio reading is now up on the BBC Radio 4 Extra website – William Russell reading David Whitacker's 1964 novelisation of The Daleks. I've got a fourth edition copy of this book from 1980, and one thing that always struck me about it is the way it ignores the events of An Unearthly Child. Instead the early chapters portray a completely different version of how Ian and Barbara met the Doctor and Susan. The audio version is divided up into ten separate episodes, which admittedly is a bit long. But I'd recommend listening to at least the first two, if only to hear the alternate background story Whitacker gave to explain how the TARDIS crew met.
Thank goodness for the iPlayer for us Americans. I've listened to Chapter 1 so far. It's certainly a darker way of bringing the crew together.
While I obviously wouldn't replace An Unearthly Child, I would've loved to have seen Hartnell appear from the shadows at one point, with an everlasting match in his hand.
QuoteI've now decided I am going to watch An Adventure in Time and Space on Thursday, largely due to the positive response from William Hartnell's granddaughter, Jessica Carney. Carney has appeared in several Doctor Who documentaries over the years and she wrote a biography of her grandfather titled Who's There? The Life and Career of William Hartnell. She's always been very protective of her grandfather's legacy, so her description of the new drama as "a wonderful tribute" lays to rest any chances of it being a hack job.
I just saw Carney in the DVD extra My Grandfather, The Doctor, which is attached to The Space Museum. I'm glad to hear that she's happy with the portrayal of the events in An Adventure in Space and Time.
I think everyone has
their Doctor. It's usually the actor who was playing the part when they first watched the show.
My mum watched the very first episode back in 1963 and it was her favourite TV series as a child. So her Doctor has always been William Hartnell.
For me, it was a mixture of Pertwee and McCoy. Back in the early nineties the BBC repeated one story starring each Doctor, except for Pertwee. In his case they repeated four serials: The Daemons, The Sea Devils, Planet of the Daleks and The Green Death. So he was the Doctor I saw the most of on television. But McCoy was the Doctor appearing in the latest comics and novels at the time, so he was also my Doctor. Now that I'm older and I'm getting back into the show after a few years away from it, I think Hartnell may be my favourite. But Pertwee and McCoy will always be
my Doctors from childhood.
It sounds like McGann is
your Doctor, BatmAngelus. Despite my criticisms of The Night of the Doctor episode – and those were mostly generalised criticisms concerning the direction of the new series as a whole – I did get a kick out of seeing the Eighth Doctor back in action. After waiting for it for so long, it was a thrill. I can't deny that. As far as I'm concerned, that counts as his second TV story. It may only have been shown online, and it may only have been a mini-episode. But the bottom line is it's McGann playing the Doctor in a live action story again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxSHTmGKiUY
I'm quite jealous of the fact you met him. He seems like a nice down-to-earth sort of bloke (classic Liverpudlian ;)).
And I vaguely remember The Flood. It was one of the last Doctor Who comic stories I read before I stopped collecting DWM.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 17 Nov 2013, 19:28Thank goodness for the iPlayer for us Americans. I've listened to Chapter 1 so far. It's certainly a darker way of bringing the crew together.
While I obviously wouldn't replace An Unearthly Child, I would've loved to have seen Hartnell appear from the shadows at one point, with an everlasting match in his hand.
Have you been listening to the other radio dramas? I wasn't mad on Protect and Survive. It was an interesting idea for a story, clearly inspired by those old Cold War PSAs, as well as Raymond Briggs' When the Wind Blows (1982). But the Doctor was hardly in it, and the subject matter was a little too bleak for my tastes. I think it might have worked better as a two or three parter rather than a four part story.
But I enjoyed the first two episodes of Fanfare for the Common Men. I was a huge Beatles fan throughout my teens and actually wrote a fan story about the Doctor encountering them back in Liverpool in the sixties. My story wasn't quite the same as this one, but it's nice to see someone else had a similar idea of using Beatlemania as the backdrop for an adventure.
Changing subject, I've just been watching some clips from the animated reconstructions of missing episodes included on some of the DVD releases. I'm really amazed. Back in the old days we had to make do with the soundtracks accompanied by slideshows of still images. Either that or inserts featuring one of the actors explaining what happened in the missing episodes. There was a really nice variant of this for the VHS release of The Crusade featuring William Russell as Ian, talking directly to the viewer about his adventures with the Doctor. I don't know if they included those segments on the DVD, but they should have. It was incredible to see him reprising the role in live action after all those years, and at a time when no new live action Doctor Who was being produced. But now, with these animated reconstructions, we have an alternative way to enjoy the missing episodes. I recall several fan-made attempts to do this in the past, but the animation was nowhere near this quality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXvk8HbYQL0
I'll look forward to seeing these when I get the DVDs. It makes me wish they could reconstruct entire stories like Marco Polo and The Power of the Daleks. But that might be a little too ambitious.
Due to my admiration for these actors, I'm probably more comfortable classifying McGann as
one of my Doctors, rather than definitively
my Doctor. Like you, it's tough for me to pick just one.
But yes, I do have a more personal connection to him than to many of the others, partially because I met him in person and partially because his audio adventures helped me get through chemo recovery weekends.
Funny story is that McGann was ALMOST my first Doctor. I distinctly remember being a kid and seeing a commercial for the '96 TV movie on Fox, wondering what the heck this show was about. I suppose, even just from seeing the trailer, it made an impression on me. That long-haired stranger in a white sheet rising up from a dark table- was he "Doctor Who?" Why was he called that?
I admit, I didn't see it when it aired. Maybe I thought it looked too strange at the time.
Nearly a decade later, the 2005 revival became my introduction to Doctor Who, leading to me requesting Classic Doctor Who DVDs for Christmas and discovering William Hartnell, etc.
But I sometimes wonder how things would've gone if I saw the TV movie in 1996 first. Would I have gotten into the Doctor Who mythology earlier or would I have just felt stumped and confused about what was going on? Whatever the case, I'm glad I discovered the show eventually after all and became a big fan.
Also, here's something cool they did with McGann at a convention about a year ago that feels eerily prophetic now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIKpBoJKqas
QuoteHave you been listening to the other radio dramas? I wasn't mad on Protect and Survive. It was an interesting idea for a story, clearly inspired by those old Cold War PSAs, as well as Raymond Briggs' When the Wind Blows (1982). But the Doctor was hardly in it, and the subject matter was a little too bleak for my tastes. I think it might have worked better as a two or three parter rather than a four part story.
But I enjoyed the first two episodes of Fanfare for the Common Men. I was a huge Beatles fan throughout my teens and actually wrote a fan story about the Doctor encountering them back in Liverpool in the sixties. My story wasn't quite the same as this one, but it's nice to see someone else had a similar idea of using Beatlemania as the backdrop for an adventure.
I'll keep this in mind. I'm working my way through the Daleks read-through at the moment. Yes, I know the story from both the serial and the Cushing movie, but the completist in me wants to listen to everything I can before it gets taken off the site. Plus, as I've said before, Ian is one of the best, most important companions in my book, so to hear William Russell read everything in first person is a treat.
I don't think they included Russell's Crusade segments on the Lost in Time DVD (to be fair, I've only seen the episode footage of Crusade from there so far and haven't explored the Special Features yet), but luckily, I was able to find them pretty easily on YouTube.
Continuing the discussion on the audios being broadcast on iPlayer:
I enjoyed Protect and Survive for the most part, but I agree it was too long. Once it was down to Ace and Hex in part four, the story was outstaying its welcome for me and getting repetitive in the amount of times we followed them in the time loop. The Seventh Doctor's one-chapter role and the cliffhanger ending didn't help matters either.
None of this would've bothered me if I had purchased the story on my own and known it was part one of a trilogy, but as a radio broadcast to celebrate the 50th, it was a poor choice. It wasn't much a showcase of the Seventh Doctor and the ending of part four made it seem like there was a part five coming. I had to look it up online to find out that it was actually continued in a story called Black and White, which, of course, will not be broadcast.
It'd be one thing if they used this to entice listeners into buying the other stories and said "To hear what happens next, check out..." but, at least in the iPlayer version I listened to, there wasn't even that. A missed marketing opportunity, especially since Big Finish is having a 10% off sale this weekend:
http://bigfinish.com/news/v/10-off-anniversary-offer
Still, I wonder, why couldn't they have selected a solid, standalone story for each of the Doctors?
I understand the rationale for having William Russell read the Daleks novelization. Though, at around 5 hours long, I think the only people who listened to the whole thing were ones already familiar with the Hartnell era, like me.
But the remaining adventures this week include:
- Russell reading The Dalek Invasion of Earth next, as well as another First Doctor adventure
- A Fifth Doctor adventure set in 1963 (probably the most appropriate one to broadcast yet, given the 1963 setting and, while I've only heard part one so far, it seems to be pretty standalone.)
- Two Seventh Doctor adventures, one of which, as I said, barely had the Seventh Doctor.
- THREE Eighth Doctor adventures.
This is pretty uneven. There's nine total adventures spanning only four Doctors, with no stories for the Second, Third, Fourth, or Sixth Doctors. Even though Troughton and Pertwee are long gone, there are still novelization audiobooks and/or Companion Chronicles from Big Finish that feature them.
Still, I shouldn't complain about listening to nine audio stories for free. I just wish they put more thought into their selection.
In other news, An Adventure in Time and Space will be broadcast in America tonight and I'm excited to check it out.
And for those interested, you can play the Google Doodle game as The Doctor. See if you can get through all of it without regenerating!
http://www.kasterborous.com/2013/11/savetheday-google-doodle-anniversary-special/
QuoteAnd for those interested, you can play the Google Doodle game as The Doctor. See if you can get through all of it without regenerating!
http://www.kasterborous.com/2013/11/savetheday-google-doodle-anniversary-special/
Did it before breakfast. Well, actually I died a few times on my first play through. But second go, I did it without regenerating. Because I'm the Doctor. ;)
I agree with your points regarding the selection of audio dramas. It would have been a good opportunity to repeat the radio serials Pertwee recorded in the nineties: The Paradise of Death and The Ghosts of N-Space. I listened to these when they were first broadcast, and admittedly neither of them was very good. But it would have made sense to have included Pertwee in the week's celebrations. They also could have repeated the classic Tom Baker radio play The Pescatons from 1976. But instead they chose a rather odd selection of stories.
I've listened to the first seven episodes of The Daleks. I'm not sure if I'll have time to listen to the remaining three while they're still online, but I've enjoyed the first half anyway. I've got the novels of both The Daleks and The Dalek Invasion of Earth, but it's particularly nice to hear Russell reading them. And I loved the unmade First Doctor story Farewell, Great Macedon. I'm tempted to buy the rest of the stories in that series, as well as The Companion Chronicles featuring Maureen O'Brien as Vicki.
The Davison story I quite liked. And the second McCoy story – A Thousand Tiny Wings – was much better than Protect and Survive. The worst story this week, in my opinion, was easily Human Resources. I listened to the first 50 minute episode, but I really can't be bothered listening to the second. It just didn't capture my interest at all. Which is a shame, because McGann has had some terrific audio dramas.
So yes, the First Doctor adventures triumph as far as the audio stories go.
Regarding An Adventure in Space and Time, here's my brief review (highlight text to read spoiler).
Overall, I thought it was very good. But not perfect. There were a number of historical inaccuracies, some of which were highlighted by Doctor Who writer Lawrence Miles in the review on his blog (I was going to post a link, but he's now deleted his review). I didn't like the cameo from Matt Smith towards the end. I understand what it was meant to symbolise, but it just felt jarring to me. Brian Cox wasn't very convincing as a Canadian, and both he and Gatiss portrayed Newman with such broad strokes that the character came across as something of a stereotype rather than a nuanced depiction of the real man. It also would have been nice if they could have highlighted some of the other key figures in the show's early success; particularly David Whitaker, Christopher Barry and Terry Nation.
That being said, it was mostly a very good drama. The depiction of the show's creation was a bit melodramatic and predictable (the progressive woman producer rising up against the stuffy chauvinistic boy's club of the old BBC). But the programme was on surer ground once the emphasis shifted onto Hartnell. I've read a lot about Hartnell over the years, and I thought the portrayal of him in this programme was actually very accurate. They managed to capture his complexity in a way that acknowledged his faults without making him unsympathetic. Bradley's performance was excellent and he should probably win some sort of award for this.
The most moving scene of all, for me, was the footage of the real Hartnell delivering his famous farewell speech to Susan in The Dalek Invasion of Earth. This has long been regarded as a classic moment from the First Doctor's era, but it's never seemed more poignant than as the finale of this film. The real life interview footage that followed the programme was a nice touch too. Overall I'd rate it 4/5.
On the subject of the First Doctor, rumours are now circulating that the BBC has recovered the lost story Marco Polo. According to several sites, a fan recorded the serial upon its original broadcast using a cine camera. The rumours further state that the silent footage is now being restored and matched with the original soundtrack. The BBC has yet to confirm or deny this, but if it turns out to be true I think my head may explode.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/doctor-who/10468931/Missing-episodes-of-Doctor-Who-serial-Marco-Polo-rumoured-to-have-been-found.html
I'm currently rereading John Lucarotti's novel of Marco Polo and it's fantastic. Of all the stories that are still missing, this is probably the one I'd most like to see recovered. So let's hope the rumours are true. If they are, it would be the best 50th anniversary gift to the fans imaginable. ;D
I'll keep your thoughts in mind when I watch it tonight, SN (I'm already wearing my William Hartnell shirt in preparation). I'm glad to hear that it was good for the most part and at least kept true to how Hartnell was really like. I love the production stills I've seen and it's trippy for me to go from watching The Web Planet a few months ago to seeing Hartnell and the Menoptera recreated with a modern cast and in color.
QuoteThe worst story this week, in my opinion, was easily Human Resources. I listened to the first 50 minute episode, but I really can't be bothered listening to the second. It just didn't capture my interest at all. Which is a shame, because McGann has had some terrific audio dramas.
I actually own this story, as part of the full Season 1 package of Eighth Doctor Adventures, and it's definitely another poor choice to broadcast. The story's much weaker than the previous episodes. Phobos and Immortal Beloved come to mind as a couple stronger choices from Season 1 they could've used. HR was only worth listening to because it provided answers to the Lucie Miller mystery and introduced Straxus, who's a recurring Time Lord via different actors/incarnations.
Peter Egan, the radio announcer in Protect and Survive, played a later incarnation in Dark Eyes and had a fantastic scene in the opening with McGann (that was more memorable than any moment in Human Resources), while Oliver Hume is apparently playing another incarnation of Straxus in The Light at the End.
Since they didn't air any of the previous Lucie Miller stories or later Straxus stories, it's still a bad choice. I know they're airing the two-part Season 4 finale, Lucie Miller and To the Death, this weekend. I haven't heard those yet. I've heard they're really good, so I expect them to be much better than Human Resources.
But considering it features a variety of companions previously introduced in other audios (i.e. on top of Lucie, there's Tamsin. Then there's Alex, who was introduced in An Earthly Child), it hardly seems like the best selection of Eighth Doctor stories for people to follow. I'm betting a majority of the audience probably haven't heard those other adventures before. Hell, I haven't even heard all the Lucie ones or the ones with Tamsin and Alex yet. The only ones familiar with those aspects are people who already know the Big Finish adventures.
Isn't the point of all this just to broadcast good Doctor Who stories, with the potential of getting new customers interested in buying the Big Finish audios? Why broadcast stories that are not only continuity-dependent but also aren't even the best BF productions?
They really should have aired Storm Warning this week since that was the first Eighth Doctor audio adventure. With The Night of the Doctor reigniting interest in McGann's incarnation and referencing Charley Pollard, it'd be the perfect jumping off point to get people interested in buying more of the adventures of Eight and Charley on the Big Finish site. Another missed opportunity.
As for Marco Polo, this would be another great thing for the 50th Anniversary. What better way to top off this year than to recover one of the first stories for the First Doctor?
I feel extremely fortunate to live at a time where most of the stories are out on DVD and easily accessible to rent on Netflix, while the lost stories are either being found, like the Troughton ones, or are being reconstructed in animation.
I've just finished An Adventure in Space and Time. While I enjoyed it, I agree with SN that it could've been so much more.
Quote
I didn't like the cameo from Matt Smith towards the end. I understand what it was meant to symbolise, but it just felt jarring to me.
I'm a fan of the actor, but I do admit that his inclusion felt a little out of place and, as you said, jarring. When I first heard about this, I felt mixed. While I get what they were saying at the end, I feel as if Hartnell's meeting with Troughton made the same point.
QuoteBrian Cox wasn't very convincing as a Canadian, and both he and Gatiss portrayed Newman with such broad strokes that the character came across as something of a stereotype rather than a nuanced depiction of the real man.
I agree. From the documentary featurettes I've seen, I didn't get the impression that Newman acted like this. Things like him sucking up to Hartnell during the pilot filming or threatening to fire Verity over the Daleks (did that actually happen?) felt like too much. I'd have preferred more moments, like his "What do I know?" scene with Verity after the Daleks premiered or his "I'm sorry" to Hartnell towards the end. Still tough, but less stereotypical Hollywood producer. Instead, some of his scenes, especially towards the end when replacing Hartnell with Troughton, made him seem heartless.
I feel like the lunch scene with him threatening to fire Verity and Waris walked the fine line the best, probably because that anecdote is so well known by Who historians. (I was fortunate enough, at Gallifrey One last year, to see a panel where Waris Hussein shared this story.)
QuoteThe depiction of the show's creation was a bit melodramatic and predictable (the progressive woman producer rising up against the stuffy chauvinistic boy's club of the old BBC). But the programme was on surer ground once the emphasis shifted onto Hartnell.
I also don't get why they emphasized Verity not getting along with Rex Tucker upon their first meeting, only for him to leave the movie immediately afterwards.
On the subject of Lambert, I really wish they covered more about Verity's decision about leaving Doctor Who. She's established to be so tied into the show, but then, suddenly, she brings up to Mrs. Hartnell that she's leaving! If they explored her reasons, this would've made those scenes more dramatic, in my opinion.
I was also slightly annoyed by some inaccuracies that jumped out at me, though I understand why Gatiss made the changes. For example, there's no way kids were saying "Exterminate!" after the Daleks premiered since the Daleks didn't even say that until a later story. However, I totally get why it was done. What better way to show the impact on the kids than have them recite the Daleks' now-famous motto?
The other one was the release of the Doctor Who Annual, which, in the movie, Hartnell looks over while in costume for The Reign of Terror.
The annual, however, didn't come out until well after that story. The reason I know this is because a pdf version was attached to The Web Planet DVD (a much later adventure) and has a short story about the Doctor returning to the planet and encountering the Zarbi again.
Again, though, I see why they did this. They wanted to foreshadow Hartnell's eventual departure and it wouldn't have had as much impact if the scene happened directly after Verity left (after the Web Planet filming).
I liked the casting for the most part. I enjoyed William Russell's cameo, but thought Carole Ann Ford deserved better. It's ironic that the biopic touches on her desire to do more than just yell onscreen...and yet it makes Ford do the same thing herself later!
Reece Shearsmith did okay as Troughton, but looked too young to me (even though I know he's only a couple years younger than Troughton was at the time).
I wish they did more with Delia Derbyshire. She had such a major role in some of DW's most iconic elements and here she had only one line!
Another minor complaint, casting-wise- couldn't they have gotten someone to look more like Peter Purvis? Especially since all he'd need to do is smile at a camera for a few seconds. Oh well.
QuoteThe real life interview footage that followed the programme was a nice touch too.
Dammit. The BBC America version had no such follow-up. >:(
A few links you might enjoy if you haven't seen them already.
A BTS look at An Adventure in Space and Time: http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/behind-the-scenes-of-an-adventure-in-space-and-time-55868.htm
I THOUGHT I recognized Jean Marsh and Anneke Wills in the crowd singing to Verity.
The fact that, at one point, Gatiss was playing Pertwee for a Three Doctors segment makes me wonder if there was an extended ending, covering Hartnell getting to revisit the role one last time. Part of me is kind of glad it didn't happen. As much as I like Gatiss as Mycroft in Sherlock, he doesn't fit Pertwee in my mind.
Also, here's the full scene reconstructions of the famous DW moments. I was a bit disappointed in the movie that we didn't see a full on close-up of Bradley doing the farewell speech to Susan, but I'm glad it was shot like this to be shown online (though in watching it, I do wish Bradley had stuck a little closer to how Hartnell recited it):
http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/an-adventure-in-space-and-time-bonus-reconstruction-scenes-55907.htm
QuoteSince they didn't air any of the previous Lucie Miller stories or later Straxus stories, it's still a bad choice. I know they're airing the two-part Season 4 finale, Lucie Miller and To the Death, this weekend. I haven't heard those yet. I've heard they're really good, so I expect them to be much better than Human Resources.
I feel very out of touch with the mythology from these plays. It sounds like there's a lot of back story. I hope I'll be able to understand Lucie Miller and To the Death.
QuoteThey really should have aired Storm Warning this week since that was the first Eighth Doctor audio adventure. With The Night of the Doctor reigniting interest in McGann's incarnation and referencing Charley Pollard, it'd be the perfect jumping off point to get people interested in buying more of the adventures of Eight and Charley on the Big Finish site. Another missed opportunity.
Storm Warning would indeed have been perfect. I love that adventure. Great setting, great atmosphere. And it requires no previous knowledge of the mythology. Then they could have followed it up with some of the other Eighth Doctor/Charley stories like Sword of Orion and The Chimes of Midnight.
Have you listened to The Light at the End yet? My copy hasn't arrived. I originally ordered it off Amazon over a week ago, but their delivery estimate wasn't until next week. So I cancelled my order and bought it directly from Big Finish. But now they're telling me to wait up to a month for delivery. Oh well, I'll get it eventually. Maybe you could give me your spoiler-free review after you've listened to it. Let me know if it's any good.
QuoteI feel extremely fortunate to live at a time where most of the stories are out on DVD and easily accessible to rent on Netflix, while the lost stories are either being found, like the Troughton ones, or are being reconstructed in animation.
I know what you mean. It's a great time to be a fan of these early adventures. With classic "missing" serials being recovered (please let the rumours about Marco Polo be true!), newly animated versions of the lost episodes, brand new DVD features, and fresh audio dramas starring surviving cast members, it's like the sixties era has been given a new lease of life. Speaking of which, who's looking forward to seeing The Enemy of the World when it's released on DVD next week? It'll be the first new "classic" Who story I've seen in ten years. I can't wait.
QuoteThings like him sucking up to Hartnell during the pilot filming or threatening to fire Verity over the Daleks (did that actually happen?) felt like too much.
Newman
was unhappy with the Daleks, but his aversion to B.E.M.s stemmed largely from a report written by John Braybon and Alice Frick, dated July 25th 1962. The document was directed to Donald Wilson, the head of serial drama at the BBC, as a guideline on how to approach science fiction programming. The number one rule was: "They do not include Bug-Eyed Monsters." They even used the abbreviation B.E.M. elsewhere in the document. So Newman's hostility towards such things was not simply a matter of personal taste, as the docudrama would suggest, but rather a reflection of departmental policy.
The show
was under threat of cancellation during the first thirteen episode block, but I don't recall reading anything about Newman threatening to fire/demote Lambert over the Daleks. The whole "kill Doctor Who" bit was terribly melodramatic.
If you want a really good source of information on sixties era Doctor Who, there's one book I can't recommend highly enough: Doctor Who: The Sixties by David J Howe, Mark Stammers and Stephen James Walker. I'm not sure if it's still in print, but if you can find a second-hand copy for a decent price it's well worth the purchase. It features biographical information on all the actors, writers, directors, producers, composers, etc. It contains behind-the-scenes accounts from people who worked on the show, information about the unproduced stories, production art, and even the original character outlines (the Doctor was originally meant to be a human from the year 5733, and the TARDIS featured a lock that prevented it from travelling beyond that point in time). It's full of interesting images, including several photos that show you what the sets and costumes looked like in colour. It also covers the two Doctor Who movies and all the merchandise from that era. Similar books were produced for the seventies and eighties eras of the show, but I found the sixties book the most interesting.
QuoteI'd have preferred more moments, like his "What do I know?" scene with Verity after the Daleks premiered or his "I'm sorry" to Hartnell towards the end. Still tough, but less stereotypical Hollywood producer. Instead, some of his scenes, especially towards the end when replacing Hartnell with Troughton, made him seem heartless.
Agreed. I think you phrased it better than I did, but that's what I was getting at. The whole cigar-chomping Hollywood producer stereotype seemed a little lazy and inauthentic.
QuoteI feel like the lunch scene with him threatening to fire Verity and Waris walked the fine line the best, probably because that anecdote is so well known by Who historians. (I was fortunate enough, at Gallifrey One last year, to see a panel where Waris Hussein shared this story.)
I didn't know Hussein attended conventions. I've got even more respect for him after reading his criticism of the new series:
Quote"There is an element now, and I know we're living in a different era, of sexuality that has crept in," he said. "The intriguing thing about the original person was that you never quite knew about him and there was a mystery and an unavailability about him."
The 74-year-old pointed out that Smith and Coleman shared an on-screen kiss in last year's Christmas special 'The Snowmen'. "Now we've just had a recent rebirth and another girl has joined us, a companion, she actually snogged him," he added.
Hussein said that he favours an "unavailable" Doctor, like the character of Sherlock Holmes, adding: "Why bring in this element, when in fact you needn't have it there?"
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s7/doctor-who/news/a471052/original-doctor-who-director-criticises-new-series-its-too-sexy.html
Well said, sir.
QuoteI was also slightly annoyed by some inaccuracies that jumped out at me, though I understand why Gatiss made the changes. For example, there's no way kids were saying "Exterminate!" after the Daleks premiered since the Daleks didn't even say that until a later story.
That didn't actually occur to me, but well spotted.
QuoteThe other one was the release of the Doctor Who Annual, which, in the movie, Hartnell looks over while in costume for The Reign of Terror.
The annual, however, didn't come out until well after that story. The reason I know this is because a pdf version was attached to The Web Planet DVD (a much later adventure) and has a short story about the Doctor returning to the planet and encountering the Zarbi again.
Quite right. The Reign of Terror was broadcast between August and September 1964, and the episodes would have been recorded about three or four weeks prior to the transmission date. The first Doctor Who Annual – the one featured in the docudrama – went on sale in September 1965. So we're talking a whole year's difference here.
Maybe Matt Smith brought it back in time with him and left it lying around the set. >:( That whole moment just didn't ring right for me. It felt like a plug for the new series, and it drew attention away from Hartnell during a scene where he needed to remain the focus. If they wanted to have him looking into the show's future, couldn't they have shown all of the Doctors appearing in succession? Or if that was too difficult on a technical level, how about simply having him hear their voices speaking lines from classic stories?
I agree with Carney's sentiment that her grandfather would have been proud to see the character enduring after all these years. But I'm also fairly certain Hartnell would have despised what the show has become. If he'd really been able to look into the future and see what modern Who was like, I suspect he would have been mortified. Instead of smiling at Smith sentimentally, he probably would have punched his lights out.
By the way, the interview footage with Hartnell that was featured in the documentary after the film (the documentary was only about four minutes long) is apparently included as an extra on The Tenth Planet DVD. I think it's the only interview footage of Hartnell I've ever seen.
QuoteI liked the casting for the most part. I enjoyed William Russell's cameo, but thought Carole Ann Ford deserved better. It's ironic that the biopic touches on her desire to do more than just yell onscreen...and yet it makes Ford do the same thing herself later!
I didn't spot Ford's cameo when I watched it. I spotted Russell, Wills and Marsh, but Ford and Mark Eden slipped me by.
QuoteI wish they did more with Delia Derbyshire. She had such a major role in some of DW's most iconic elements and here she had only one line!
Yes, she should have featured more prominently. They also should have given Raymond Cusick a head's up during the sequence about the Daleks. He passed away earlier this year, so it would have been an appropriate tribute.
QuoteAnother minor complaint, casting-wise- couldn't they have gotten someone to look more like Peter Purvis? Especially since all he'd need to do is smile at a camera for a few seconds. Oh well.
Tell me about it. And the actress playing Maureen O'Brien looked almost as tall as William Russell! Was it really so difficult to find lookalikes for these small nonspeaking roles? I also thought Reese Shearsmith was miscast as Troughton. He looked and sounded nothing like him, and his impersonation seemed to be based on the Second Doctor rather than Troughton himself.
One more peeve I have is that I felt they overplayed Hartnell's vulnerability. Based on this film, you'd think he spent his entire tenure on the show hallucinating and staring off into the distance in bemusement. Yes, he had health problems. And those grew worse as the years progressed. But he was also a very capable actor and I think the film should have highlighted his professional strengths a little more prominently, in addition to his weaknesses.
But overall, I thought it was good. It reminded me a lot of Return to the Batcave: The Misadventures of Adam and Burt. But while that film was played for laughs and camp value, An Adventure in Space and Time was geared more towards sentimentality and melodrama. Its heart was in the right place, and I think they captured the essence of Hartnell accurately. So overall I was happy with it.
By the way, have you heard about The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot? I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it's on tonight. It's some sort of special celebration made by some of the classic Doctors who weren't included in the 50th anniversary story. Apparently Sean Pertwee's involved. Could he be playing the Third Doctor?
http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/the-fish-dr-revealed-the-fiveish-doctors-reboot-55789.htm
I wonder what it is...
QuoteHave you listened to The Light at the End yet? My copy hasn't arrived. I originally ordered it off Amazon over a week ago, but their delivery estimate wasn't until next week. So I cancelled my order and bought it directly from Big Finish. But now they're telling me to wait up to a month for delivery. Oh well, I'll get it eventually. Maybe you could give me your spoiler-free review after you've listened to it. Let me know if it's any good.
I'm sorry to hear this, BUT if you ordered the physical CD from the Big Finish website like I did (I went as far as getting the Limited Edition version), they SHOULD allow you to download a digital copy off their site. Here's what I got from the receipt:
QuoteIf you have purchased one of our audio adventures on CD and that audio is available as a download, this will be made available to you FOR FREE! Simply log in to the "My Account" section of the site to access these and all your downloads.
Which means you can listen to it now!
I haven't heard it yet. I'm doing that tonight after I watch Day of the Doctor, but I'll be sure to pop back in here with my thoughts.
QuoteThat whole moment just didn't ring right for me. It felt like a plug for the new series, and it drew attention away from Hartnell during a scene where he needed to remain the focus. If they wanted to have him looking into the show's future, couldn't they have shown all of the Doctors appearing in succession? Or if that was too difficult on a technical level, how about simply having him hear their voices speaking lines from classic stories?
After thinking it over, I believe the big dramatic problem with the ending is that the audience has been siding with Hartnell this whole time. When we get to those scenes, we view the regeneration and recasting as tragic. We
don't want it to happen. We don't want to see Troughton or anyone else replacing him, even though we know it's what really happened.
So to have him suddenly come to terms with leaving the show, due to seeing a couple of the future actors who'll take his place, just doesn't feel right.
I think a better way to have illustrated the "future of Doctor Who" point would've been if they had Hartnell recognizing the show's impact on children, like his granddaughter and future generations, and explored him coming to terms with the fact that the show must go on, for their sake.
In other words,
don't show
any of the future actors like Troughton and Smith. Instead, use the fans and the children (who were already part of the biopic's story) to make this point. In real life, the children were the ones who really brought him joy anyway.
I think we all would've bought Hartnell smiling sentimentally at the thought of
them, instead of at any of the actors who took over his job.
QuoteBy the way, the interview footage with Hartnell that was featured in the documentary after the film (the documentary was only about four minutes long) is apparently included as an extra on The Tenth Planet DVD. I think it's the only interview footage of Hartnell I've ever seen.
Aha, I'll check this out when I get to the Tenth Planet.
QuoteOne more peeve I have is that I felt they overplayed Hartnell's vulnerability. Based on this film, you'd think he spent his entire tenure on the show hallucinating and staring off into the distance in bemusement. Yes, he had health problems. And those grew worse as the years progressed. But he was also a very capable actor and I think the film should have highlighted his professional strengths a little more prominently, in addition to his weaknesses.
Now that you mention it, I do agree with this. The film had more moments of Hartnell messing up on camera than moments of him nailing it or proving why he became so beloved as the Doctor. If they had more of the latter, it would've made his faltering moments more heartbreaking and emotional, as opposed to "Oh, he's messing up again." I would've loved to have seen more reenacted scenes of his finer moments, like Hartnell appearing from out of the Dalek in The Space Museum or any moment from The Romans (neither of which were covered, though I didn't expect them to be able to show filming for every episode). Throw in some additional footage of audiences at home, laughing and enjoying his performance. There was a bit of this in showing the families watching the Daleks, but this felt more like they were watching it for the Daleks than for Hartnell.
Quote
By the way, have you heard about The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot? I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it's on tonight. It's some sort of special celebration made by some of the classic Doctors who weren't included in the 50th anniversary story. Apparently Sean Pertwee's involved. Could he be playing the Third Doctor?
http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/the-fish-dr-revealed-the-fiveish-doctors-reboot-55789.htm
I wonder what it is...
I know only a little more than you do. From what I understand, Peter Davison wrote and directed it as a comedy sketch with five Doctor actors- Davison, Colin Baker, McCoy, McGann, and Tennant- playing themselves, and apparently Sean Pertwee and Olivia Coleman thrown in the mix. I'm not sure what else is there, but speculation is that it's about the four Classic Doctor actors trying to get in on the 50th Anniversary special (and hijack it from Tennant?).
Of course, I could turn out to be way off base on this. We'll see soon, won't we?
QuoteI know only a little more than you do. From what I understand, Peter Davison wrote and directed it as a comedy sketch with five Doctor actors- Davison, Colin Baker, McCoy, McGann, and Tennant- playing themselves, and apparently Sean Pertwee and Olivia Coleman thrown in the mix. I'm not sure what else is there, but speculation is that it's about the four Classic Doctor actors trying to get in on the 50th Anniversary special (and hijack it from Tennant?).
Of course, I could turn out to be way off base on this. We'll see soon, won't we?
A certain blockbuster movie franchise director and a knighted top English actor/comic-book movie star also make an appearance. The latter has a particularly hilarious piece of dialogue.
Surprisingly it's a very funny piece and makes up, for me at least, for the absence of Messers Davison, C Baker, McCoy and McGann from the 50th anniversary episode (unless you include archive footage/a dodgy CGI-looking climactic assembly of the twelve (?), including Hurt, Doctors at the end.
Also, I have to say even as somebody who isn't a massive fan of 'The Doctor' I rather enjoyed the 50th anniversary episode and the Professor Brian Cox 'The Science of Doctor Who' lecture from last week. But best of all, especially for a TV history buff like me was the 'An Adventure in Time and Space' special featuring a particularly poignant performance from David Bradley (who's having a heck of a late bloom in his career with great performances in "Game of Thrones", as a Edgar Wright/Simon Pegg/Nick Frost regular, and as Argus Filch in "Harry Potter", not to mention his beautifully understated performance in 'Another Year' a few years back alongside his 'An Adventure...Space' co-star Lesley Manville). The scene where Verity Lambert (Jessica Raine) comforted a nervous and vulnerable William Hartnell (Bradley) during the shooting of the first episode was particularly touching in view of the initial curmudgeonly image he seemed to project. I truly hope Bradley's performance is recognised by Bafta and/or other acting award-giving institutions.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sat, 23 Nov 2013, 18:32I think a better way to have illustrated the "future of Doctor Who" point would've been if they had Hartnell recognizing the show's impact on children, like his granddaughter and future generations, and explored him coming to terms with the fact that the show must go on, for their sake.
In other words, don't show any of the future actors like Troughton and Smith. Instead, use the fans and the children (who were already part of the biopic's story) to make this point. In real life, the children were the ones who really brought him joy anyway.
I think we all would've bought Hartnell smiling sentimentally at the thought of them, instead of at any of the actors who took over his job.
I agree, that would have been much better. I think Gatiss misjudged the scene.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sat, 23 Nov 2013, 18:32
QuoteHave you listened to The Light at the End yet? My copy hasn't arrived. I originally ordered it off Amazon over a week ago, but their delivery estimate wasn't until next week. So I cancelled my order and bought it directly from Big Finish. But now they're telling me to wait up to a month for delivery. Oh well, I'll get it eventually. Maybe you could give me your spoiler-free review after you've listened to it. Let me know if it's any good.
I'm sorry to hear this, BUT if you ordered the physical CD from the Big Finish website like I did (I went as far as getting the Limited Edition version), they SHOULD allow you to download a digital copy off their site. Here's what I got from the receipt:
QuoteIf you have purchased one of our audio adventures on CD and that audio is available as a download, this will be made available to you FOR FREE! Simply log in to the "My Account" section of the site to access these and all your downloads.
Which means you can listen to it now!
Aha! That serves me right for not scrolling down the email. Thanks for tipping me off about this. I wouldn't have realised otherwise. I was able to download it and listen to the first episode yesterday, and I've just listened to the second episode today. I was also able to listen to the last three episodes of Russell's reading of The Daleks yesterday and I watched the first episode of An Unearthly Child in the evening.
And... I watched The Day of the Doctor. I learned you-know-who was making an appearance as the curator, so I had to see it. I've got to be honest, as much as I dislike the new series, this story really wasn't bad at all. In fact I'd say it's the best episode I've seen from the BBC Wales series. I liked that they included Kate Lethbridge-Stewart from the spinoff Downtime (1995). And it was good to see the Zygons return, although they weren't as frightening as they were in Terror of the Zygons. I also liked the fact they undid the destruction of Gallifrey, which was a plot point I always hated in the new series. It's about time they rectified that mistake. And of course the appearance by
him was the icing on the cake. What better way to celebrate the anniversary than to see the greatest living Doctor return to our screens?
Moving on to The Light at the End, I enjoyed it a lot. My only criticism is that I sometimes found it difficult to distinguish between the voices of the first three Doctors during the scenes where they were conversing with one another. I thought the actors playing them, while not sounding exactly like the originals, nevertheless did a good job of representing them. But it was sometimes hard to tell them apart. Even so, I appreciate that they made the effort to include the first three Doctors. It made the story feel more complete. And having William Russell involved created a link with the very first episode back in 1963; something that was lacking from The Day of the Doctor.
The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot was quite entertaining. I've met Davison, C Baker and McCoy, and they're all thoroughly nice blokes. So it's good to see them getting some of the limelight again.
And that pretty much covers Doctor Who's 50th anniversary. Of course it's not quite over yet. We've still got one more audio drama this evening, plus a week to catch up with those episodes we may have missed. And tomorrow, finally, The Enemy of the World is getting released on DVD. And for me that's probably the most exciting event of all.
However, there are a couple of things I haven't liked about the 50th anniversary. One is the overabundance of celebrity recollections. More or less every television or radio programme on the subject has been crammed full of z-list celebrities sharing their fond memories of the series. I don't remember any previous anniversary placing such a big emphasis on celebrity reactions to the show. Where were all these so-called fans during the wilderness years when us real fans were campaigning to get the series back on TV? Why are they only expressing their "love" for the show now that it's a big success again? Sorry to sound cynical, but I haven't seen a single nonfiction programme this anniversary that comes close to classic documentaries like More Than Thirty Years in the TARDIS or The Doctors - 30 Years Of Time Travel And Beyond.
I also feel that one particular Doctor was largely overlooked during the celebrations. And I'm not talking about Cushing.
The new Doctors have all been interviewed on various TV shows, as well as featuring in The Day of the Doctor.
McGann starred in The Night of the Doctor mini episode, had three of his stories broadcast on BBC Radio 4 Extra, and also appeared in The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot and The Light at the End audio drama.
Davison, Colin Baker and McCoy all appeared in The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot and The Light at the End. They've all also been appearing on various TV shows commemorating the anniversary, and Davison and McCoy have had some of their stories broadcast on BBC Radio 4 Extra.
Tom Baker appeared in The Light at the End and The Day of the Doctor, and he's been interviewed quite a bit on television over the past few days.
Troughton's gotten a lot of press coverage in the past few months owing to the recent recovery of two of his stories, one of which is getting a much hyped DVD release tomorrow. He's also received considerable praise from the other Doctor Who actors during interviews for the anniversary programmes.
Hartnell's been the subject of an acclaimed docudrama, An Unearthly Child was repeated on BBC Four, and three of his stories have been read on BBC Radio 4 Extra in the past week.
But where was Pertwee? All the new documentaries I've seen seemed to gloss over his era fairly quickly. Granted, Pertwee himself, Barry Letts, Caroline John, Roger Delgado, Nicholas Courtney and Elisabeth Sladen have all passed away, and consequently there aren't many people left from that era to share their memories of it. But couldn't they have repeated one of his radio plays or book readings? Couldn't they have shown some of his television serials, or perhaps produced a small documentary to celebrate his time on the show?
Back in 1993 Pertwee was everywhere. He appeared in all the documentaries and spinoffs from that year, had one of his serials repeated in a primetime evening slot, showed up on lots of chat shows, and introduced the first episode of Dimensions in Time on Children in Need Night. He played the Doctor for five years and amassed the third highest number of episodes of any Doctor, after Tom Baker and Bill Hartnell. I just wish there'd been something this anniversary to highlight his contribution to the franchise. I didn't feel his presence at all, and I missed him.
(DAY OF THE DOCTOR SPOILERS)
Whoa! Not only did Day of the Doctor undo Gallifrey's destruction, bring back Tom Baker, and tease Peter Capaldi before the regeneration, but it got Silver Nemesis to watch and not hate it!
I enjoyed the special. The three-Doctors dynamic was fun and while it would've been more fun to have a Classic Doctor in the War Doctor's place in the scenes where he was criticizing his future selves, I thought Hurt did a great job.
I loved the cameos from the past and the future. Unfortunately, Baker himself spilled the beans in an interview earlier this week that he'd be in the special. But thankfully, I had interpreted it to mean that they were just splicing in his old footage, like they did earlier this year in The Name of the Doctor episode. So, when it got to the "All the Doctors save Gallifrey" part, I thought that was it.
Then I heard his voice in the gallery scene and thought, "You're kidding..." And there he was!
QuoteAnd having William Russell involved created a link with the very first episode back in 1963; something that was lacking from The Day of the Doctor.
Supposedly, Ian Chesterton was listed as one of the heads of the school where Clara works. If that's true, this was a huge missed opportunity to bring in William Russell to deliver the message to her, rather than the random young guy.
Imagine the first companion sending the latest companion off to another adventure with the Doctor. I can envision the twinkle in Russell's eyes and the wry smile as he wishes her luck. It would've been fantastic, really, and would've created a nice bookend to open the special with that, since they were ending it with Smith & Tom Baker.
Unfortunately, my biggest disappointment of the evening was that I didn't get through The Light At the End. I was at a friend's house for Day of the Doctor and popped in the first CD for us to listen, but there were so many other conversations around the place that I couldn't catch everything that was going on in the audio. I'm going to have to listen to it again and get back to you.
Loved the Five(ish) Doctors Reboot and laughed pretty much all the way through. If I had one criticism, I thought it ran long once the three Doctors escaped from the set and Russell T. Davies started leaving his voicemail on Davison's phone. If they cut that and went directly to Steven Moffat and the editor at the end, it wouldn't have felt as sprawling.
Still, with Tom Baker in Day of the Doctor and McGann in Night of the Doctor, this was a great way for us to see Five, Six, and Seven in action (technically).
I agree with your criticisms on the celebrity specials and the absence of a Pertwee tribute. They could've at least broadcast one of his radio adventures in place of Protect and Survive or Human Resources, since McCoy and McGann were already covered by other audios. I've only seen Pertwee in Spearhead (I didn't get to watch Three Doctors yet), but I get the feeling he'll be one of my favorites as well.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Sun, 24 Nov 2013, 17:53
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sat, 23 Nov 2013, 18:32I think a better way to have illustrated the "future of Doctor Who" point would've been if they had Hartnell recognizing the show's impact on children, like his granddaughter and future generations, and explored him coming to terms with the fact that the show must go on, for their sake.
In other words, don't show any of the future actors like Troughton and Smith. Instead, use the fans and the children (who were already part of the biopic's story) to make this point. In real life, the children were the ones who really brought him joy anyway.
I think we all would've bought Hartnell smiling sentimentally at the thought of them, instead of at any of the actors who took over his job.
I agree, that would have been much better. I think Gatiss misjudged the scene.
Yes, the shot of Hartnell/Bradley smiling at Matt Smith was the one shot in the show I disliked. It felt like a very self-conscious sop to the younger/current fans. I can understand the symbolic point of that shot both in terms of Hartnell recognising the legacy he would birth and the timelord seeing-into-the-future motif but on an instinctive level Matt Smith's presence just felt jarring in terms of the tone set by the rest of the show.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 24 Nov 2013, 19:09
(DAY OF THE DOCTOR SPOILERS)
Whoa! Not only did Day of the Doctor undo Gallifrey's destruction, bring back Tom Baker, and tease Peter Capaldi before the regeneration, but it got Silver Nemesis to watch and not hate it!
I enjoyed the special. The three-Doctors dynamic was fun and while it would've been more fun to have a Classic Doctor in the War Doctor's place in the scenes where he was criticizing his future selves, I thought Hurt did a great job.
I loved the cameos from the past and the future. Unfortunately, Baker himself spilled the beans in an interview earlier this week that he'd be in the special. But thankfully, I had interpreted it to mean that they were just splicing in his old footage, like they did earlier this year in The Name of the Doctor episode. So, when it got to the "All the Doctors save Gallifrey" part, I thought that was it.
Then I heard his voice in the gallery scene and thought, "You're kidding..." And there he was!
BatAngelus, I saw the episode too but I'm curious to know your opinion on a couple of things.
Was there any significance to Tom Baker's appearance at the end in terms of the character he was playing or was it simply a cameo by a former Doctor in a random role and nothing else? Also, of the very brief glimpse we got of Peter Capaldi's Doctor does anyone have any thoughts on how he might look/behave as the forthcoming new Doctor, or was the shot too brief and the shot too close-up to make any such assessments?
QuoteThe scene where Verity Lambert (Jessica Raine) comforted a nervous and vulnerable William Hartnell (Bradley) during the shooting of the first episode was particularly touching in view of the initial curmudgeonly image he seemed to project. I truly hope Bradley's performance is recognised by Bafta and/or other acting award-giving institutions.
Agreed. Bradley seems to have been typecast in sinister roles, from Filch to Frey to even Solomon in Doctor Who, so I loved seeing another side of him here. The fireplace scene towards the end was especially heartbreaking.
QuoteWas there any significance to Tom Baker's appearance at the end in terms of the character he was playing or was it simply a cameo by a former Doctor in a random role and nothing else?
Ah, I'm glad you asked because I have a few thoughts on this: I don't think Baker was the Fourth Doctor because then, how did he get old and become a curator? And I don't think he was a random human curator either because how could he know so much about Gallifrey and why would he be so friendly to the Eleventh Doctor?
I interpreted Baker to be playing a future Doctor, based on his hint to Eleven that he may revisit some "old favorite faces" in the future regenerations. This future Doctor has taken the role of a curator in the gallery, so that he could look after Gallifrey.
Also, I could be wrong, but doesn't Elizabeth I declare the Tenth Doctor to be the curator of the Gallifreyan paintings? I'm going to rewatch the special soon, but it could be that Future Tom Baker Doctor finally comes back to London to fulfill this role.
There's another interpretation I read, though, in which Baker could be an older version of a human who encountered the First, Second, and/or Third Doctor when he was younger and learned about this stuff from him. When it came time for the Third Doctor to regenerate, he subconsciously picked a similar face to the Curator for the Fourth Doctor (which could mean that the Eleventh Doctor could subconsciously pick a similar face to that one father he saved in Pompeii when he turns into the Twelfth Doctor, etc.).
These are just fan theories, though. I think it's open to interpretation, but I lean more towards the former, since the episode was already about The Doctor meeting his other incarnations and saving Gallifrey. It'd be appropriate for Eleven to encounter his future self and gain hope from him.
QuoteAlso, of the very brief glimpse we got of Peter Capaldi's Doctor does anyone have any thoughts on how he might look/behave as the forthcoming new Doctor, or was the shot too brief and the shot too close-up to make any such assessments?
From the brief shots we got, it does look like he's wearing a dark coat and the TARDIS console seems to be the same one that Smith is currently using.
As for his behavior, some people are interpreting that he'll be a darker Doctor, due to his intense look in the closeup, but you could also interpret that it's simply a look of steely determination as he uses the TARDIS to save the planet. Either way, I loved that he got to make a surprise, early appearance before the Christmas regeneration and I'm excited to see how his Doctor turns out.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 24 Nov 2013, 19:47
QuoteThe scene where Verity Lambert (Jessica Raine) comforted a nervous and vulnerable William Hartnell (Bradley) during the shooting of the first episode was particularly touching in view of the initial curmudgeonly image he seemed to project. I truly hope Bradley's performance is recognised by Bafta and/or other acting award-giving institutions.
Agreed. Bradley seems to have been typecast in sinister roles, from Filch to Frey to even Solomon in Doctor Who, so I loved seeing another side of him here. The fireplace scene towards the end was especially heartbreaking.
Yes, particularly when he puts on a brave face and says to his wife that there will be other big roles in the future. The look of grief on his face when she leaves him suggests he sadly believes otherwise.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 24 Nov 2013, 19:47QuoteWas there any significance to Tom Baker's appearance at the end in terms of the character he was playing or was it simply a cameo by a former Doctor in a random role and nothing else?
Ah, I'm glad you asked because I have a few thoughts on this: I don't think Baker was the Fourth Doctor because then, how did he get old and become a curator? And I don't think he was a random human curator either because how could he know so much about Gallifrey and why would he be so friendly to the Eleventh Doctor?
I interpreted Baker to be playing a future Doctor, based on his hint to Eleven that he may revisit some "old favorite faces" in the future regenerations. This future Doctor has taken the role of a curator in the gallery, so that he could look after Gallifrey.
Also, I could be wrong, but doesn't Elizabeth I declare the Tenth Doctor to be the curator of the Gallifreyan paintings? I'm going to rewatch the special soon, but it could be that Future Tom Baker Doctor finally comes back to London to fulfill this role.
There's another interpretation I read, though, in which Baker could be an older version of a human who encountered the First, Second, and/or Third Doctor when he was younger and learned about this stuff from him. When it came time for the Third Doctor to regenerate, he subconsciously picked a similar face to the Curator for the Fourth Doctor (which could mean that the Eleventh Doctor could subconsciously pick a similar face to that one father he saved in Pompeii when he turns into the Twelfth Doctor, etc.).
These are just fan theories, though. I think it's open to interpretation, but I lean more towards the former, since the episode was already about The Doctor meeting his other incarnations and saving Gallifrey. It'd be appropriate for Eleven to encounter his future self and gain hope from him.
I was worried I might have been asking a silly question so I'm so pleased that you responded with such a fascinating and well-considered response. :) Like you, I logically assumed that the curator couldn't have been the Fourth Doctor because he was surely effectively 'dead'/regenerated into Peter Davidson and therefore could never have aged to look as Tom Baker does now (assuming Doctors even age before they 'die'/regenerate), but then again, I'm not very expert on Doctor Who.
Both theories make sense and I wouldn't have any problems if either of them turned out to be the case but I particularly like the first theory. It certainly ties up to the 'old familiar faces' line.
Also, does that mean that the curator is possibly the last Doctor?
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 24 Nov 2013, 19:47QuoteAlso, of the very brief glimpse we got of Peter Capaldi's Doctor does anyone have any thoughts on how he might look/behave as the forthcoming new Doctor, or was the shot too brief and the shot too close-up to make any such assessments?
From the brief shots we got, it does look like he's wearing a dark coat and the TARDIS console seems to be the same one that Smith is currently using.
As for his behavior, some people are interpreting that he'll be a darker Doctor, due to his intense look in the closeup, but you could also interpret that it's simply a look of steely determination as he uses the TARDIS to save the planet. Either way, I loved that he got to make a surprise, early appearance before the Christmas regeneration and I'm excited to see how his Doctor turns out.
I can certainly see Capaldi as a more intense, aloof, inscrutable type of Doctor. It might make an interesting contrast to the last couple of Doctors who have been rather amiable and puckish.
One last question, I've heard that John Hurt's Doctor is meant to be between Paul McGann and Christopher Eccleston's Doctors which would make him the Ninth Doctor. Do you know anything about this?
QuoteWhoa! Not only did Day of the Doctor undo Gallifrey's destruction, bring back Tom Baker, and tease Peter Capaldi before the regeneration, but it got Silver Nemesis to watch and not hate it!
Believe me, I'm as surprised as anyone. For me to not hate an episode of the new Doctor Who is comparatively high praise. I doubt it'll happen again, but who knows?
I would just like to point out that Zygon body-print technology is traditionally dependent upon the original subject being detained, unconscious, within a special cubicle aboard their ship. Once the subject becomes disconnected, or the body-print erased, the Zygon can only sustain its disguise for a short period of time before reverting back to its natural form. Admittedly my knowledge of Zygon science is a bit rusty, so maybe I'm remembering this wrong. But I'm pretty sure the new episode messed this up with the scenes of two Queen Elizabeths. I'm also sceptical that the energy/mass interface system Zygon's use to change shape would allow them to imitate something as large as a horse. And since these scenes took place in the 16th century - and the Zygon's don't possess time travel technology - then you can't use the old "their technology improved" excuse to explain the inconsistency in their abilities. But like I say, my memory's fuzzy on this particular species, so I may be wrong.
QuoteSupposedly, Ian Chesterton was listed as one of the heads of the school where Clara works. If that's true, this was a huge missed opportunity to bring in William Russell to deliver the message to her, rather than the random young guy.
Imagine the first companion sending the latest companion off to another adventure with the Doctor. I can envision the twinkle in Russell's eyes and the wry smile as he wishes her luck. It would've been fantastic, really, and would've created a nice bookend to open the special with that, since they were ending it with Smith & Tom Baker.
That would have made a lovely tribute. At 89 years of age, I was going to say it might be unrealistic for him to still be working. But taking into account how the government keeps pushing back the age of retirement, it mightn't be so implausible after all. It's incredible to see him so active and involved with the franchise after all these years. Must be that Kryptonian DNA of his keeping him young.
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QuoteLoved the Five(ish) Doctors Reboot and laughed pretty much all the way through. If I had one criticism, I thought it ran long once the three Doctors escaped from the set and Russell T. Davies started leaving his voicemail on Davison's phone. If they cut that and went directly to Steven Moffat and the editor at the end, it wouldn't have felt as sprawling.
I really can't stand Russell T Davies, so cutting his scene gets my approval.
QuoteWas there any significance to Tom Baker's appearance at the end in terms of the character he was playing or was it simply a cameo by a former Doctor in a random role and nothing else? Also, of the very brief glimpse we got of Peter Capaldi's Doctor does anyone have any thoughts on how he might look/behave as the forthcoming new Doctor, or was the shot too brief and the shot too close-up to make any such assessments?
Yes, I was wondering about that. Much as I liked seeing Baker, it does paint a rather messy and convoluted picture of the character's personal timeline. Are we to take it his regenerative sequence is cyclical and that he'll eventually start reliving previous incarnations? Or are we to assume that his final incarnation will see him readopting his most popular form: namely Tom Baker? Or was it just a throwaway nod to the past for the sake of the anniversary?
In the old series, the previous Doctors would occasionally return looking older than they had at the end of their regeneration. For example, Troughton in The Two Doctors. But in a franchise built upon temporal distortions and dimensional anomalies, the fans just accepted it. So with that in mind, maybe the "curator" was actually just the Fourth Doctor breaking the First Law of Time to visit his future self.
QuoteThere's another interpretation I read, though, in which Baker could be an older version of a human who encountered the First, Second, and/or Third Doctor when he was younger and learned about this stuff from him. When it came time for the Third Doctor to regenerate, he subconsciously picked a similar face to the Curator for the Fourth Doctor (which could mean that the Eleventh Doctor could subconsciously pick a similar face to that one father he saved in Pompeii when he turns into the Twelfth Doctor, etc.).
Or the Fifth Doctor choosing the face of the swine who shot him in The Arc of Infinity.
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I like this theory a lot. I think you're right that Baker's appearance was meant to represent a future Doctor, but I'd prefer it if the curator was simply an ordinary man who'd encountered the Doctor in an earlier incarnation and had left an impression on his subconscious.
QuoteOne last question, I've heard that John Hurt's Doctor is meant to be between Paul McGann and Christopher Eccleston's Doctors which would make him the Ninth Doctor. Do you know anything about this?
There were two occasions in the original series where a separate being was formed in between two of the Doctor's incarnations. I'll put this in spoilers, in case BatmAngelus or anyone else hasn't seen these stories yet. In Logopolis there's a mysterious character called the Watcher who follows the Fourth Doctor around during his final adventure. In the end, it's revealed the Watcher is actually a future echo of the Doctor's regeneration. It bonds with him at the moment of death, and together they are reborn as the Fifth Doctor. The other time this happened was in Trial of a Time Lord, at the end of which it is revealed that the villainous Valeyard is in fact a distillation of the dark side of the Doctor's personality, extracted from somewhere between his twelfth and final incarnations. So I'm assuming the War Doctor was something similar – a being existing between regenerations. It's a messy idea, and it doesn't really make any sense, but that's the best explanation I can come up with.
QuoteAlso, does that mean that the curator is possibly the last Doctor?
It could go either way. It's possible that The Doctor will eventually retire and curate the museum/protect Gallifrey, but a retired Doctor doesn't necessarily mean that he's the last Doctor (though that's still possible).
Or maybe he's not retired at all. I'd like to think that The Doctor will never retire and that this Baker Doctor is both the curator of the National Gallery
and still secretly going off in adventures in the TARDIS with companions in classic Hartnell-style adventures in which Baker's Future Doctor leaves the young companions to do the action as the old man thinks of the plans.
QuoteOne last question, I've heard that John Hurt's Doctor is meant to be between Paul McGann and Christopher Eccleston's Doctors which would make him the Ninth Doctor. Do you know anything about this?
Did you see this minisode?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U3jrS-uhuo
Here's how I see it: The order of incarnations is Doctors 1-8, then John Hurt's incarnation. At the end of the special, John Hurt is regenerating into Christopher Eccleston and about to start the Season 1 adventures with Rose. Since Eccleston believes that his previous self wasn't worthy of the name of the Doctor, he's still the "Ninth Doctor." So, Eccleston, Tennant, Smith, and Capaldi are his tenth, eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth lives, but they're still the ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth versions to call themselves the Doctor. The number of incarnations/lives is different, but the numbering of Doctors remain the same.
QuoteI would just like to point out that Zygon body-print technology is traditionally dependent upon the original subject being detained, unconscious, within a special cubicle aboard their ship. Once the subject becomes disconnected, or the body-print erased, the Zygon can only sustain its disguise for a short period of time before reverting back to its natural form. Admittedly my knowledge of Zygon science is a bit rusty, so maybe I'm remembering this wrong. But I'm pretty sure the new episode messed this up with the scenes of two Queen Elizabeths. I'm also sceptical that the energy/mass interface system Zygon's use to change shape would allow them to imitate something as large as a horse. And since these scenes took place in the 16th century - and the Zygon's don't possess time travel technology - then you can't use the old "their technology improved" excuse to explain the inconsistency in their abilities. But like I say, my memory's fuzzy on this particular species, so I may be wrong.
I haven't seen Terror of the Zygons, but when I'll do, I will definitely investigate.
QuoteThat would have made a lovely tribute. At 89 years of age, I was going to say it might be unrealistic for him to still be working. But taking into account how the government keeps pushing back the age of retirement, it mightn't be so implausible after all. It's incredible to see him so active and involved with the franchise after all these years. Must be that Kryptonian DNA of his keeping him young.
Haha, hey, if the man can make a cameo yelling at Brian Cox in Adventure in Space and Time, he certainly could've made a small appearance delivering a message to Jenna Coleman.
QuoteSo with that in mind, maybe the "curator" was actually just the Fourth Doctor breaking the First Law of Time to visit his future self.
This is another possibility and perhaps the simplest explanation, though it makes me wish he was wearing the scarf and coat, since Troughton still got to wear a take on his Second Doctor outfit whenever he reappeared.
Though there are people online saying that the Curator gave the UNIT girl, Osgood,
the scarf, but I'm not sure if that's just online speculation or a reference I missed in the show.
QuoteI like this theory a lot. I think you're right that Baker's appearance was meant to represent a future Doctor, but I'd prefer it if the curator was simply an ordinary man who'd encountered the Doctor in an earlier incarnation and had left an impression on his subconscious.
Yep, I like it, too, and there's definitely precedent for something like this from the Classic Series, ever since Romana regenerated into looking like Princess Astra.
EDIT:
QuoteI really can't stand Russell T Davies, so cutting his scene gets my approval.
He wasn't even that funny in his part either, so that's another reason why I think it could've gone without it.
On the subject of Davies, I think it's interesting, actually, that Day of the Doctor either undid things that he established or twisted & made fun of things that we associate with the new series.
The Doctor destroyed Gallifrey? Not anymore.
The Time Lords were bad guys, like in the End of Time? Nope, turns out that was just the High Council gone mad and there were still millions of innocent people worth saving.
Billie Piper's back, but not as Rose Tyler and is more or less playing a character specifically created for this special.
The love interests/kissing, catchphrases, weapon-like sonic screwdrivers, and new TARDIS designs are each criticized by a Doctor along the way.
Moffat and Smith even make fun of Davies/Tennant's last line from the End of Time.
I'm not saying Moffat is trying to take the piss out of Davies, since the man gave him a job on the show in the first place, but I was surprised and entertained by the script's tongue-in-cheek moments in poking fun of the new series.
Funnily enough, all of those things you listed were things I liked about The Day of the Doctor. The further the show moves away from RTD's influence, the closer it gets to reclaiming its former dignity.
Quote from: BatmAngelus on Sun, 24 Nov 2013, 21:32
I haven't seen Terror of the Zygons, but when I'll do, I will definitely investigate.
I need to watch it again myself actually. I haven't seen it for years. It's a great story, though it does suffer from one of the worst special effects in the show's history (the scene of the Skarasen emerging from the Thames). But other than that, it's a classic. It's also a good example of the gothic horror-flavoured narratives that defined the Hinchcliffe era. And the Hinchcliffe era was, in my opinion, easily the best part of the Fourth Doctor's reign.
In fact I'd argue it was the last truly great era of the original series as a whole. There were plenty of good stories that came afterwards, but I'd say Hinchcliffe's departure marked the end of the Golden Age that began with the Hartnell era; the period where the number of good stories vastly outweighed the number of bad ones. Douglas Adams fans will doubtless disagree with me on this point, but that's my view on the matter.
Anything that needs to be said, has already been so, so excuse the mildly delayed echo.
Something that really struck me about this episode is how organic it seemed--in other words, this adventure seems to have really grown out of what was laid down over the past number of series, simultaneously complimenting while undoing some of what RTD had set up. While I'm less an RTD fan (I want to love Torchwood, but I loathe it) and more a Moffat fan, this is one of the first adventures that steps up and says, 'yes, this is the Doctor, and here's how his story not only fits in, but it important to the mythology.'
I read Baker as the final doctor regeneration--revisiting an old face and retiring as opposed to dying on Trenzelor (sp?). I understand it's open to interpretation, and is ultimately Moffat's acknowledgement of the anniversary--but it still works for me. This episode, in part, seems like an attempt to bring classicWho fans back to the table, and I hope it does so. While I was familiar with Doctor Who growing up, and connected with Peter Davison back in the day, I can't claim the kind of devotion that others here can. So I will have to assume that it may have had some success.
The search for Gallifrey? Good set up. :) There are many adventures yet to be had. Can't wait!
QuoteI read Baker as the final doctor regeneration--revisiting an old face and retiring as opposed to dying on Trenzelor (sp?). I understand it's open to interpretation, and is ultimately Moffat's acknowledgement of the anniversary--but it still works for me.
I rewatched the Baker cameo here:
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-11-24/watch-tom-baker-and-matt-smiths-scene-from-the-day-of-the-doctor
And I really think now that the Curator has to be a future Doctor. The lines lend themselves to this interpretation the most.
DOCTOR: I could retire and be the curator of this place.
CURATOR: You know, I really think you might.
DOCTOR: I never forget a face.
CURATOR: I know you don't. But in years to come, you might find yourself revisiting a few. But just, the old favorites.
CURATOR: Oh, you have a lot to do.
DOCTOR: Do I? Is that what I'm supposed to do now? Go looking for Gallifrey?
CURATOR: It's entirely up to you. Your choice. I could only tell you what I would do, if I were you (chuckles). Oh, if I were you...perhaps, I was you, of course. Or perhaps you are me...
Notice in this bit that Baker never says, "You
were me." His word choice implies that he views Eleven as his former self, rather than his future self.
I think the Christmas Special, revealed today to be titled "Time of the Doctor," will close the loop from The Name of the Doctor by having the Eleventh Doctor die at Trenzalore (thus explaining why the "grave" in Name of the Doctor seemed to be the same TARDIS as the one he uses), but instead of dying for good, as implied by that episode, he regenerates and lives, with Capaldi as the next incarnation.
BBC Radio 4 Extra is currently repeating Tom Baker's reading of Terrance Dicks' novelisation of Pyramids of Mars.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018jk6s
It's on each Sunday evening at 18:00 GMT. Episode 1 was on last Sunday, which means it's only available for a few more hours. If you want to listen to it, you'll have to be quick. But episode 2 will be available until next Sunday. Sorry I didn't post about this earlier.
I haven't commented on Smith's last episode yet. I will get around to it.
In the meantime, 12's costume has been revealed. To be completely honest, I find it dull. It's more or less a modified 11th Doctor getup, sans bowtie with a bit of red added. Wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't settle on something and found it all a bit too hard, with Capaldi giving the near cop-out "no frills" answer.
It would look alright if the jacket was undone and flowing, but that's not going to happen all the time.
Looking forward to his performance, though.
I'm inclined to agree that it's underwhelming, since it's so similar to what he regenerated in.
I do like that the red lining calls back to Pertwee a little bit.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfAeIJOIUAAdJye.jpg)
And, if the coat were unbuttoned, it'd be a similar getup to 8's costume in the DWM comics.
But it does feel like some neckwear would make it look more complete.
Everyone keeps saying how great that it reminds them of Pertwee. I don't think that's good at all in this case. I want a new Doctor's costume to be something we've never seen before most of the time. That is certainly what Eccleston's was and especially Tom Baker's (the imagination ran riot there). If you want to reflect the costumes of past Doctor's don't do a "Matt Smith" and mirror Troughton almost to a "t", do a "David Tennant"! His pinstripe attire with sneakers and tie was a smart and stylish new direction for the Tenth Doctor. The big long coat (my favourite) reminded me so much of coats worn by Baker, Davison, and McGann and yet was strikingly new and exciting from any coat the Doctor had donned before. Begining of course with just it's colour. Following which, it's length. Brand new and just a slight familar. Perfection.
I never liked Matt Smith's at all. I found it far too similar to Pat Troughton's. A bit of a safe cop out in fact. We've all read I'm sure his original outfit (which we remain to not glimpse) was more "piratey". Who knows how good or bad it may have been. At least it would be original and uniquely Eleventh Doctor. Now this time they've gone and done it again only oppostie with a design harkening to Pertwee!
The real crime of this new suit is because it's so appalingly similar to Matt's last outfit, it boggles the mind of logic why the good Doctor even bothers to triumphantly change his outfit in the first darn place!
Capaldi never got a great start in Smith's last episode (the single worst regeneration scene/effect since "Time and the Rani") and now this suit is begining to kill my enthusiasm for this big new start for Doctor Who. It looks at the moment it'll be more of the same old same old.
Did anyone get around to watching 'The Web of Fear'? I suppose it was inevitable that after so many decades of hype, it wouldn't quite live up its mythical status. It was very good, but not quite the 10/10 masterpiece some of the older fans had led us to believe.
My main gripe is the pacing. Like a lot of six part stories, there are too many obvious filler moments with people running around corridors. I think it would have worked better as a four parter. Episode 1 was damn near perfect. It does exactly what an opening episode should do: setting the atmosphere, introducing all the characters, establishing the central mystery, etc. I thought episode 4 was excellent too. But I felt episodes 2 and 3 should have been condensed into a single episode, and the same for episodes 5 and 6.
But overall it was a very good story. And it mostly did live up to my expectations, lofty though they were. As far as ranking it against Troughton's other stories go, I'd place it below Tomb of the Cybermen and The Mind Robber. A solid 4/5.
With the news that Steven Moffat is stepping down from being showrunner, I've seen many reactions. Some disappointed, some rejoicing. As both a writer and afan, I thought I'd gather my thoughts to write my own send-off to the man:
Without Steven Moffat, I would never have gotten into Doctor Who.
In high school, I had watched some of Season 1 with Christopher Eccleston. Through college, I'd peek at a few clips of David Tennant's run. I even checked out a few First Doctor episodes, but the show was never something I really loved. I thought it was cool how there were regenerations to switch out actors and that there was time traveling and aliens, but I wasn't interested enough to watch it regularly.
Until I saw The Eleventh Hour.
When people ask me where they should start to get into Doctor Who, I point them out to this episode.
Some of this is by default. The classics feel dated. Showing An Unearthly Child would likely turn people off in my generation from watching more. The Ninth Doctor's debut is, in my opinion, pretty damn terrible (in fact, I consider Season 1 to be the weakest season, by far). And the Tenth Doctor's debut is unfortunately hindered by having him in a coma for 75% of the episode and spending most of the time with Rose being annoying.
Here, though, everything was new. New Doctor. New companions. New TARDIS. New sonic. New villains. New music. And new showrunner. It felt like a pilot for a new show. It was brisk, funny, frightening, and exciting. The Eleventh Doctor had the energy and enthusiasm of a young man, but the wisdom and weariness of a centuries-old Time Lord. He was an insane genius who could both be a clown and a threat. He quickly became, well, "my Doctor."
And that's when I got hooked on the show, motivating me to watch the rest of Season 5 as well as look back at the previous episodes- both the RTD era and then further, the classics. Then the Big Finish audios that further developed the underrated Doctors like Six and Eight. I became a Whovian.
When asked in an interview about TV writers I admire, I listed Steven Moffat up there with Breaking Bad's Vince Gilligan. Creatively, there were times after watching his show, where I've felt inspired or able to see where I should go with a script.
I wasn't aware, until I got further into the fandom, that the man's work was controversial.
For me, Moffat's writing flaws stem from his ambition. He perhaps tries to tackle on too much, go too crazy with his ideas, or set things up in such a big way that they're impossible to pay off without undermining the hype. Personally, I think there are far worse sins that a writer can commit.
I'd be lying if I said that his era was flawless, though:
- Turning the Daleks into the colorful versions from the Peter Cushing movies made the silly-looking villains look even less threatening.
- As much as I loved Season 5, Season 6 was definitely inferior and Season 7 was almost a letdown with how many forgettable episodes there were.
- River's origin story in A Good Man Goes to War/Let's Kill Hitler felt anticlimactic given all the buildup since her debut in Season 4 and the development of her actual romance with The Doctor felt rushed. All the talk of this being the Doctor's "worst hour" and his impending death also felt false.
- There was little point in suddenly trying to have Amy and Rory divorce in Asylum of the Daleks only for them to get back together and back to the status quo by the end of the episode.
- The mystery behind Clara Oswald's multiple deaths got annoying and did little to make her feel like a fully formed character. (Thankfully, this was improved on when the 12th Doctor debuted.)
- Making the Daleks forget about the Doctor felt pointless when it was retconned so quickly and easily later on anyway.
- While I enjoyed Day of the Doctor, I'm in the camp that feels it would've been much better if Paul McGann's Eighth Doctor was in it instead of the War Doctor (with a meta commentary on the Eighth being the one that the Doctor "tries to forget about," considering how underrated McGann is). I also felt conflicted about the reveal that the Doctors had hidden Gallifrey rather than destroyed it, considering how much that affected Doctors Nine through Eleven. (Personally, I'd like to think that the Nine, Ten, and Eleven we followed were from an original timeline where he did blow it up and The Day of the Doctor created a new timeline where Nine, Ten, and Eleven just thought they destroyed it when they actually didn't).
- The Time of the Doctor was a disappointing final entry for 11 in how it rushed through tying up all the loose ends about the Silence prophecy, not to mention that making the 11th Doctor into the 13th incarnation contradicted previous moments where 11 seemed to believe he could regenerate or had some regenerative powers. (Again, which is why I think McGann should've been the Time War Doctor and they could've saved having the idea of getting the new regenerations with Capaldi)
- The 12th Doctor felt ill-defined through a lot of Season 8 in comparison to his predecessors. It was hard to put a finger on who he was until Season 9, where he felt much more like his own version of The Doctor.
- Hell Bent was also an extremely anticlimactic return to Gallifrey, with a weak Rassilon, and a rather muddled end to Season 9.
And yet, to me, the good completely outweighs the bad here. Aside from The Eleventh Hour, we got:
- New villains that will continue to haunt people's nightmares. The Silence. The Weeping Angels, bringing The Doctor, Amy, and River together in the two-parter in Season 5 while later separating The Doctor and River from Amy and Rory in Season 7.
- A Christmas Carol- still the best Doctor Who Christmas special.
- And while The Beast Below and The Doctor, The Widow, and the Wardrobe are hardly the best of the show, the endings never cease to make my eyes water.
- The much-awaited return/regeneration of Paul McGann in The Night of the Doctor, something that fans never thought they'd ever see and sparked a much deserved resurgence of interest in the Eighth Doctor.
- The Day of the Doctor- one of the best multi-Doctor stories, which brought back The Zygons, David Tennant, Billie Piper (in a better role, in my opinion), and Tom Baker, as well as explained Ten's connection to Queen Elizabeth I.
- A solution around the 12 regeneration limitation (for better or worse).
- the risky decision of following up the young and popular Matt Smith with the older, brusque Peter Capaldi and the exploration of how people react to the Doctor's personality going darker in Deep Breath
- The ending speech of Listen that sums up how humanity should accept their fears and live with them.
- Resurrecting The Master in a risky manner
- Bringing out the human side of a dying Davros in The Witch's Apprentice in him asking The Doctor, "Was I right? I need to know before the end...am I a good man?"
- The Doctor's epiphany in The Girl Who Died on the origin of his face and how it tied into Season 4's The Fires of Pompeii in a very simple, but meaningful way
- The anti-war speech in The Zygon Inversion that not only tied into current events, but also gave us a glimpse into The Doctor's pain.
- Heaven Sent. One of the greatest Doctor Who episodes of the whole franchise, which both taught me a life lesson and inspired me to continue writing at a time where I was feeling jaded.
- The ending of The Husbands of River Song, paying off a plot point that Moffat had planted seven or eight years ago in a satisfying way and wrapping up River's storyline in a poignant way.
I hope, like many others, that Moffat gives Season 10 his all and goes out on a high note.
I wish the new showrunner, Chris Chibnall the best, though personally, I'm a bit skeptical as I haven't been extremely impressed with his work so far. 42 was forgettable. Hungry Earth/Cold Blood was pretty much a remake of the Third Doctor's Silurian story. Dinosaurs on a Spaceship and The Power of Three were just okay but nothing special. Frankly, I think his best DW work was on the web, with Pond Life and the heartbreaking P.S. With the exception of those, he hasn't written anything remotely close to what Moffat had written before taking over showrunning duties (with his Blink and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead in the RTD era also among the series' best).
Personally, out of the pool of DW writers who've been showrunners, I would've preferred Toby Whithouse. His School Reunion was the first episode that cemented that the show was in continuity with the classics. Vampires of Venice and The God Complex, while not the best episodes, had good explorations of how the companions view The Doctor and how his actions affect them. A Town Called Mercy was one of the few good non-Moffat episodes of Season 7. And he delivered a solid two-parter Under the Lake/Before the Flood for the Twelfth Doctor this past season.
Still, what's done is done and I hope Chibnall carries on the torch well.
Until then, thank you, Steven Moffat, for making me a fan, for making people scream, for making people laugh, for making people cry, and for being an inspiration.
Not sad he's leaving to be honest. I think he's stayed on too long already.
Don't get me wrong, I like Moffat for the most part. And on his best day, he's better than RTD. I really don't want to get into the politics of it all, so I'll simply say I didn't like some of the narrative choices and agendas Moffat made in recent times.
As for Capaldi, I never managed to connect with him in the same way as Tennant or Smith. Those two, (especially Smith, who I consider the best Doctor of all, literally born for the role), remain my favourites and probably always wil be. I just think Capaldi lacks a certain energy and charisma that the others have, and the writing didn't help. It was all over the place with his personality hard to define.
So yes, if a new showrunner means a new Doctor I'm not terribly upset. Although if he's replaced by a gimmick that wormed its way into the show via the meddling of Moffat, I really will turn off the show. I still watch it now, but don't feel as strongly about it. I'm actually moving more towards Star Wars again.
Well, I knew they couldn't help themselves. How pathetically politically correct. Doctor Who is officially dead to me.
It is forever ruined in my eyes.
I lost interest with Capaldi. But now they have chosen to appeal to the SJW crowd.....that's it.
This is where I get off completely. It will split the fan base in half.
I don't think the pro female Doctor crowd understands how these gimmicks end up. Look at Girlbusters. We got the labeling and shaming to shut down debate. We were apparently all sexist pigs for not liking the concept. But the film bombed. I think it could happen here too, and I hope it does. The more they shout how sexist we all are the worse the situation becomes. As I said, it will split the fan base in half. The BBC made their bed, now they can lie in it.
The ratings aren't good now, so hopefully they just end up pulling the show completely after this sham is over with.
I guess iconic female characters will be gender bended as well? Hah. Not a chance. That doesn't fit the agenda folks. Only straight, white males will get this treatment. I mean....this is a historic first! Next I hope they make Buffy and Wonder Woman female as well, because there's just no lead female characters about.
The biggest cop-out with pro female Doctor supporters has always been the 'he's an alien who can regenerate into anything!'. I have no problem with females getting lead roles, but not when it equals tampering with established icons. Make your own characters and leave the classics alone. After 13 male Doctors out of nowhere he becomes a woman, and the height of the SJW madness phase? C'mon. The BBC is pandering to the wrong crowd.
It's absolute nonsense, and you can thank hack Moffat for introducing this possibility during his reign. Before him, this concept was completely foreign to the canon and it should have remained so. The Doctor is a Time Lord, not a Time Lady. His genetic DNA structure is that of a man, which everything else (age, facial appearance, etc) being random. But oh no, he could actually change gender as well!
This is nothing but a cheap gimmick/political statement masquerading as TV. I don't want the show anymore and I hope it burns. It's Doctor Who because we said so, and you, the viewing public better get on board with it. Hah. Nope.
Doctor Who is dead. Bury it.
I saw this coming back in 2005. I've already spoken at length about what the original Doctor Who meant to me and how the new series broke my heart, so I won't go over all that again. Instead I'll just mention that Steven Moffat wrote a female Doctor in the 1999 Red Nose Day spoof The Curse of Fatal Death. And in the 'making of' feature on the VHS release he addressed the notion of a female Doctor, saying:
"I think maybe they should have done it in the series when it was ailing towards the end. I think pushing that panic button might have been quite fun."
At the 10:01 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X0qhLa_txY
The key phrases being: "when it was ailing towards the end" and "pushing the panic button".
Doctor Who died years ago. Let's not waste any more time talking about it when there are much happier subjects we can discuss.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 22:42
Instead I'll just mention that Steven Moffat wrote a female Doctor in the 1999 Red Nose Day spoof The Curse of Fatal Death. And in the 'making of' feature on the VHS release he addressed the notion of a female Doctor, saying:
"I think maybe they should have done it in the series when it was ailing towards the end. I think pushing that panic button might have been quite fun."
This is gold because it's exactly what happened. Straight from the horse's mouth.
Quote from: Silver Nemesis on Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 22:42
Let's not waste any more time talking about it when there are much happier subjects we can discuss.
Agreed.
On this same gender bending topic, Halle Berry spoke complete sense when questioned about a 'female James Bond'.
"I want [women] to be tough but I don't know if Bond should be a woman. I mean, that series is steeped in history, you know Ian Fleming's stories. I don't think you can change Bond to a woman. We can create a new Bond character that's a woman, and give her a new name, based on that theory, but I don't know if Bond should be a woman."
AMEN!
What complete and utter madness that this stuff can be seriously discussed because 'gender is a construct'.
We're not afraid of women. We're sick of this BS ruining everything.